Evidence for a PreTribulation Rapture

what do you think of this?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (KJV)

Believe it or not but the above scripture proves the belief in the PreTribulation Rapture. Here we see that Jesus has overcome the world. If Jesus is in us then this means that we the Church shall overcome the world.

I Jn 2:13-14 "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one." (KJV)

Here we read that we have overcome the wicked one. Who is the wicked one. As we all know is that it's satan. Now a time is coming when the antichrist will come who is a man who will be satan's incarnation in the flesh on the earth much like Jesus was the full expression of and was God on the earth in the flesh.

I Jn 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." (KJV)

Satan is in the world seeking to devour whom he can.

Rev 3:10-11 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (KJV)

Another word for temptation is testing. What the scripture says here is that there will be a great testing that will come to the whole world. But we are also told that the faithful one's (the Church) will be kept from it. So who are the ones to be tested if the Church is kept from it? I believe that is rather clear from the book of Revelation that the ones that will be tested for their faith are the tribulation saints. These are the people during the tribulation that will hear the gospel of the kingdom for the first time and believe. But once the Church is gone, so is age of grace. The tribulation saints and the newly converted Jews will have to have their faith tested.

In this scripture we are promised that we will be kept "from the hour of temptation." The Greek work for temptation here is "ek." This word means out of and not through as most Post Tribulations claim. For more detail explanations see http://www.angelfire.com/or/jesus/ek.html

Rev 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (KJV)

Here it says that the saints will be overcome by satan's man of the hour who represents the world. If these saints are the Church, then Jesus is a liar when he says,

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18 (KJV)

Rev 11:7 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (KJV) Clearly we can see here that the saints are not the Church as proposed by the Post Tribulationists and that the Church will be taken out before the antichrist comes. When does the antichrist come? The antichrist comes at the opening of the tribulation in Revelation 6:2 The scripture says that "he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The people that he is going forth to conquer are the tribulation saints and all others that do not fall in line with his santanic kingdom on earth under satan. He shall overcome them all but not the Church. Before he rides the Church will be gone!

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Here it says that the saints will be overcome by satan's man of the hour who represents the world. If these saints are the Church, then Jesus is a liar when he says,

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18 (KJV)

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You don't tell us, Dr, anything about yourself, where you are from, or even if you are a Christian. So, I would only offer the following comment:

Your whole premise is wrong! The scripture references you cite do not in any way suggest a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor do any other scripture references.

You say that the saints are not the church. Then there is no church, because the reference is certainly not to a bunch of buildings.

You said when the church is gone, the "age of grace" is gone?? Believe me, the church is not grace and God is not confined to any "age". The church is a bunch of sinners, saved by God's grace, or it is not the church. Besides, the church isn't going anywhere until Christ comes back, and He said He isn't coming back until after the tribulation. I know we don't like that, but we should accept His word for it.

Your statement "if the saints are the church, then Jesus is a liar when he says".....and you quote Matt. 16:18. That's a pretty bold accusation, when you are using a verse, completely out of context, and which has nothing to do with what you are trying to prove, to try to back up such a statement.

I would hope that you would do more study, in context, before using verses at random which are not even applicable to your subject.

I am agreeable to disagreeing, agreeably....hope you are too.

Sorry Doc, I've got to agree with Old Ben here. If anything, those verses tell us to fear not in the face of danger because God is with us. They seem to imply that we will be faced with gread adversity. I'd say that, after reading those verses, we will go through the tribulation. Not all of those verses seem to have anything to do with the end times.

Hello,

I agree with the Last two post. There is no scripture proof for Pre-Trib rapture because it's just not a Bible Doctrine. It's a man made doctrine, Circa 1800s Via the Brethren movement in England, Then spread about America by the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible. The doctrine is COMPLETELY unknown to any writer before the early 1800s. Every major or minor Christian theologian and writer or Preacher before then never heard of a Pre-Trib rapture. It's hard for me to swallow that such a doctrine went unknown for 1900 years.

Barry

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vinsight4u said:

What if Zec. 6 shows us the trib doesn't start till the 4th seal?

1st seal??????????
white horse

Zec. 6
white horses

Are you saying these do not matter?

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I do feel as though Zec. 6 deels with the for horsemen of Revelation 6 and this is the lenght artcile that includes why. My primary purpose for the article below is to show through scripture how God's Wrath does not involve the Seals.
PART 1

Proof that the Seals cannot be God’s ultimate Wrath


The purpose for this study is for people that have ears to hear. May the Lord be glorified within the material presented and may others become challenged to watch and be ready for the times ahead as well as, more importantly, Christ’s return and our gathering unto Him.

This study is actually the result of the challenge to whether the book of Revelation is chronological. I am biblically persuaded to conclude that the book of Revelation is not chronological. I see the many visions that John gives as a complete story of what is to transpire in the last days with some overlapping. For example, if I was to give someone the scoop on a great movie and I wanted to tell them of all the parts of this movie as I thought of them, it might come out like this.

I’m thinking of a man in a red robe with a black stripe around its hem with a staff in his hand with his arms raised in the air. Then I am thinking of some blood, of a lamb, on the door posts with frightened people inside their houses. And after this I’m thinking of hail mingled with fire falling out of a clear blue sky upon the balcony of another man’s mansion. And I’m thinking of a huge body of water parted in the middle and through the middle a multitude of people walk to escape the invading army. Lastly I’m thinking of a baby in a hand made boat floating in a river where a princess find him and saves his life from a wicked decree by the king of the land.

Obviously I gave the jumbled events of the movie The Ten Commandments and I can imagine that quite early in the descriptions the reader had figured out to what movie I was speaking. I purposely chose a very familiar film because it is much like the book of Revelation and our ability to decipher according to very familiar scripture. I am a firm believer in the theory that scripture is its own best interpreter. If an area of scripture has very familiar symbols, text and conclusion then I would venture to say that the scriptures aid in interpreting one another.

I would first like to state my goal in this brief study. My intention is to show through the full counsel of God that the Seals are simply another piece to the movie that is being told by John and that the Seals themselves are not the Wrath of God but that they eventually lead to the Wrath of the Lamb with a rhetorical question at the end of chapter six that should speak volumes to the reader. Without further ado, I will give evidences that God’s Wrath is separate from the Seals mentioned in Revelation chapter 6 and chapter 8:1.







Who are the four horsemen?

To make this as painless and as blunt as can be, I don’t know who the four horsemen are. I don’t really care who they are. I don’t think that who they are matters half as much as what they do. I’ve heard people state that the white horse is the anti-christ destroying in the name of peace, Daniel 8:25. This could be true I don’t know. I’ve heard that the white horse is those that take the gospel into all nations and through the Prince of Peace
and conquer in the name of Christ and for His kingdom, Matt. 24:14,28:18-20. Again, I don’t know, could be. Which ever scenario one could conjure up, I can be pretty sure that however one would see the scripture, they must also see evidences of that in the world today. I don’t think that anyone can doubt that the gospel is being spread or that scripture tells of the gospel being spread throughout all the world before Christ’s coming. Of which I feel that God executes {Rev.14:6} because man is totally incapable of fulfilling any of the Lord’s commands. It is also easy to see in the world today that nations are pressing toward an aggressive peace process. When nations declare a war on terrorism; who becomes the terrorist? I am by no means attempting to defend those responsible for terroristic activities but in future scenes what if Christians are considered terrorists? Regardless, I think that eliminating terror is a peace purposed war of which we see today and I’m sure we will continue to see this war with the coming prince, the anti-christ. Both views are valid, both views have scripture. Both views are guesses. I also have my guess. My guess is not quite as definitive nor does it give us a person or group of people to point at and state THAT IS THE WHITE HORSE!!! Rather my interpretation is from the bible and I believe this to be my answer for all the other horses after the white one. You decide whether you feel as if this is a valid guess.

In Zechariah 6:1-5
And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains [were] mountains of brass.
In the first chariot [were] red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What [are] these, my lord?
And the angel answered and said unto me, These [are] the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

I understand that the colors of these chariots are not in the same order as the horses in Revelation and if that is enough for the reader to cast this theory out, so be it. I’m not offended. If this reader continues in the reading of this chapter there would be a discovery. In verses 12 &13 there is a man mentioned who is called the branch and he shall build again the temple {which is the body of Christ) and he shall rule upon his throne and be a priest upon his throne. Who is a King and Priest and has built a temple of (tabernacle of God Rev.21:3) living stones as 1 Peter 2:1-5 states? It is Jesus Christ our Lord. When Christ rules upon His throne the four horsemen would have already arrived and gone. Therefore to conclude who I think the four horsemen are. I think they are simply the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. Again it is a guess. I don’t know for sure if the four horsemen do or don’t include the anti-christ among other things. I just see a likeness of the four horsemen in Zechariah 6. So close a likeness in symbolism, text and both later conclude with the eventual ruling of the Priest/King on the throne that is considered the branch (Tsemach the only Hebrew word for branch specifically used for the messiah).

The important issues, what do these horses do?

The text is pretty clear about what they do. As mentioned before, it seems to be focused on what they do, more so, then who they are. I will just briefly jot down each horse and what activity is found within each of the horses.

White Horse – went forth conquering and to conquer.

Red Horse – take peace from the earth that they should kill one another, given a great sword

Black Horse – A measure of wheat for a days worth of wages and three measures of barley for a days worth of wages. There is also a command not to touch the oil or the wine. He had a pair of balances in his hands. (Seems to imply some economic turmoil)

Pale Horse –The name that sat on him was Death and Hell followed after him. he was given power to kill ¼ part of the earth with hunger, death, sword and beast.

There is another area of scripture that deals with the events that the four horsemen do.

Matthew 24:4-11
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

It appears that the common ground that the four horsemen have with Matthew 24 is those mentioned to be the beginning of sorrows. The scriptural similarities do not stop there.

You shall be martyred for my namesake

Let’s look at the fifth seal. Revelation 6:9-11
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Now before I continue to the sixth seal, which is the most extensive portion of this study, I need to point out a few observations. It is popularly taught that at the beginning of the Seals the Wrath of God is starting to be displayed. This teaching is based on one primary faulty assumption which then impairs the vision of those that attempt to decipher this text in relation to Revelation. The assumption is made that the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God. It impairs the way a person can view the introduction of the anti-christ upon the prophetic scene. If one views the anti-christ (White Horse) as the introduction of the Abomination of Desolation; then according to Matthew 24:21 “then shall be great tribulation” assuming that this is the Wrath of God to which “we are not appointed too.”{1Thess. 5:9}If this be true then we need not to read anymore because it does not pertain to those whom obtain salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.
I mention all this to state that the Word of God makes a very clear distinction, with the careful reading of scripture, between the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation. (Acts 2:20, Isa. 13:9-10 tell of an event before the day of the Lord [God’s Wrath]; Matthew 24: 29-30, Mark13:24 tell of this same event after the Great Tribulation) I also mention this because from a guess of who the White Horse might be; leads a person to view the White Horse as a possible indicator of the start of the Great Tribulation. If we take at face value what we know and what we don’t know,(who the white horse is) it is much easier to discern this portion of scripture.

A more direct observation to the text we are studying is that at the fifth seal the martyred ask how long it will be before He avenges their blood. He tells them to rest for a little season until their fellow servants and brethren should be killed. Well this is very revealing. If the martyred have brethren still alive, then God’s Wrath must not be in the process of execution. They are not appointed to it. Yet the text tells of some still alive.
To back up further to Seals 1-4; as pointed out before, the four horsemen are the beginning of Sorrows. Well I’m sure that the Wrath of God is definitely not the beginning of sorrows. The text shows the beginning o sorrows to be before the Great Tribulation I believe the scripture clearly shows the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath) to be after the Great Tribulation. Above text in brown.

Thus far if the reader and the author are on the same page, the Wrath has still not taken place or cannot be taking place yet at the fifth seal. Some may feel that the evidence between the first five seals and Matthew 24 are not conclusive enough to be sure that the two portions of scripture correlate at all. As I mentioned before the sixth seal is yet to come and I believe that after that, there will be no doubt.




End of Part 1,

Whiteknight

Part 2
Proof that the Seals are not God's unltimate Wrath

The Sign of His coming

In Matthew 24, the disciples asked Jesus, “What will be the sign of thy coming?” This was the thrust that lead Christ to give His Olivet discourse; to tell them what the sign shall be. In verse 30 Christ states,” And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven…..” with specific events that show forth before and after the sign of Christ in heaven.
I want to first give the verses from Matthew this time.

Matthew 24:29-32
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the
powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Revelation 6:12-16
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

I just wanted to state some very easily seen similarities with the two portions of scriptures above. The first of which are the signs from the heavens, specifically the sun and the moon becoming darkened and the stars falling. This is an incredibly consistent sign within all the word of God regarding the Day of the Lord’s Wrath. This is the distinction (the brown text earlier in this study) that I spoke of earlier that divide the Wrath of God from the Great Tribulation. Matthew 24:29 begins with the words immediately after the tribulation of those days (talking about the Great Tribulation previously stated in verse 21) the sun shall be darkened… so on and so forth. In the book of Joel 2:30-31;
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

If the sun is darkened and the moon does not give it’s light after the
tribulation but before the day of the Lord, how on earth could these be the same events? Hal Lindsey still teaches the fallacy that the Day of the Lord is the Great Tribulation although many have brought this clear truth to his attention. His latest book written has stumbled a brother in the Lord , at my workplace, to trust his many years of Christian knowledge rather than the clear written Word. I’m afraid that this is the case with many Christians in the church today that uphold the Pre-Trib doctrine. After all Timothy was told that the scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction. I would think that if the scripture is profitable for that, then we should be as the Berians and receive the word with all readiness then search the scriptures daily to whether the things spoken or written in letter were faithful to the scriptures. After my dear brother, in love with the Lord, agreed to talk about our differences in the area of Christ’s return; he then picks up his book authored by Hal Lindsey and leans on the studies done by Hal Lindsey with Hal’s doctrinal bias impairing his vision. For example: The Pre-Trib research center? If that research center doesn’t convey an attitude that they are approaching the Word of God with a bias and intention, I don’t know what does. What would one say if the Jehovah Witness organization put together a research center called the humanity of Jesus research center; or the center for research against the trinity? How likely would they find the truth of who Christ really is? Is this how the Berians approached the scriptures in Acts 17:11? I apologize for getting so irritated and off topic but the obvious pride that puffs some up through the knowledge they have, as well as the fact that their teaching have been marketed today in the Left behind series, disappoints me to say the least.

Back to the sixth seal. We also observe that in both scriptures there is evidence of a very interesting shaking taking place. This shaking has nothing to do with an earth-quake but rather a shaking from heaven. Both texts talk of this special shaking taking place in this special way. One is likened to a fig tree shaken of a mighty wind and the other talks of the powers of heaven being shaken. It seems that the popular thought that the fig tree is Israel, which I had believed that these verses spoke of in the past, may be untrue. I think that the text is pretty clear that the verses regarding the fig tree are a type of the terrestrial heavens and the stars are the figs shaken of a mighty wind. There may be a different level to this type that may exist but I have not yet seen it.

There is another similarity with the two verses. Both talk of a fig tree. That is why I think that there might something more to the fig tree than that I have given above. There may be some validity to the fig tree typing Israel but I’m just not sure enough to consider it a truth to rest upon. I can be sure of this; the Lord had these similarities evident so that we can compare scripture with scripture and know that these two events, Matt.24:32 and Revelation 6:13, are pertinent to the last days when Christ is to come.

Lastly in the sixth seal we see that there is a great army of people from kings to slaves. As they all hid in the dens and the mountains and cried “rocks fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb.” This is significant because during all of the previous seals there is no declaration of God’s wrath in process or about to happen; until the sixth seal. If the comparison to Matthew 24 is legitimate then we also know that the Lamb, obviously, will be present when He displays His Wrath. Christ is visible to the great army in this sixth seal otherwise why would they hide in the dens of the rocks of the mountains. There also appears to be great fear upon those hiding in the dens of the rocks of the mountains and that they knew who it is and what He is about to do. There seems to be as if they were wailing and mourning within this sixth seal. I don’t feel as though I am spiritualizing anything by observing this but rather I think that it is logical to see the mourning of those that see the imminent Wrath of the Lamb.

In Matthew 24:30
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

At the sight of Christ coming in heaven and all of the tribes of the earth mourn; I can hear there mourning because I can read it in the sixth seal. Notice that the text states that all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. I believe this includes the disobedient tribes of Israel. Hold on now, I’m not stating that God is done with Israel. I definitely feel that God still has to complete His promises to Israel which involves the crowning of Christ on the throne of David, which happens at the seventh trumpet. What I am referring to is the disobedient Hebrews that don’t have the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of their hearts as in the days of Egypt.

Zechariah 12:9-14
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of
Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Very interesting; in that day, there shall be a mourning in Jerusalem as there is mourning in Megiddon (or Megido) in other words ARMAGEDDON. Armageddon is where all the armies of the world gather together against Jerusalem. (Zech.12:9; Zech.1416;Rev.16:14-16;Rev:19:17-21)
It appears that just being a Jew does not exempt a person from God’s Wrath. Just as the belief that being a descendant of Abraham meant that the Pharisees were the elect of God. When Christ confronted these men on their doom; Christ told them they were as their father the devil. (John 8:44) The question is, if the Pharisees are considered to be children of the devil is it possible that some Jews today are in the same state? Some in the Christian arena seem to feel that the Jewish nation will only receive God’s blessing in every area. Is this scriptural? I think that salvation has come in the person of Christ and if there are Jews that have not received that gift of salvation, is there another hope? I should say not. Christ came and died for the sins of the world, including Israel. He also came as the Messiah of Israel and apart from that Messiah is there any hope for the Jew? I mention all this to conclude that, according to Zechariah 12:10 The inhabitants of Jerusalem will look upon Christ, whom they have pierced, and shall mourn as they mourn for their firstborn. When was there a great mourning for the firstborn of many families? Egypt. Do you suppose that for the Hebrews, that did not have the blood of the Lamb on their doorposts, the destroyer passed over them? I believe this is also true when Christ comes back as the thief. (to destroy according to his own definition
John 10:10)


After all the tribes of the earth see Christ coming with power and great glory coming in Wrath we read the last verse of this chapter.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice this verse states that his wrath is come. This verse does not state that his wrath has come. Many have allegorically interpreted this verse to imply that his wrath has come to completion do to the Greek tense used. However, according to the other scriptures given to aid in interpretation of these verses this is clearly not the case. The Strong definition is below with information on the tense and mood used.

End of Part 2
Whiteknight

Part 3
Proof that the seals are not God's ultimate wrath

“2064 ercomai erchomai er’-khom-ahee
middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] eleuyomai eleuthomai el-yoo’-thom-ahee, or [active] elyw eltho el’-tho, which do not otherwise occur); TDNT-2:666,257; v
AV-come 616, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1; 643
1) to come
1a) of persons
1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
1a2) to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public
2) metaph.
2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
2b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
3) to go, to follow one

5627 Tense-Second Aorist See 5780
Voice-Active See 5784
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count-2138 plus 1 in a variant reading in a footnote
5780 Tense-Second Aorist

The "second aorist" tense is identical in meaning and
translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense. The only
difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, and
there is no effect upon English translation.

See "Aorist" 5777

5777 Tense-Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.”

For Pre-trib the wrath has come!

If the use of the first aorist is used here and that in most cases past tense is suitable in the English then I’m under the impression that those who translated the original English translations must have mistranslated the text. I would venture to say that they knew better than then than we do today. When they translated the wrath is come rather than has come I’m persuaded to believe that this is one of the other cases to which the past tense should not be automatic.

5791 “Mood-Indicative
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an
action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be
rendered in the indicative mood.”

The only area that I can see possible past tense involved is in the above mood given and I’m guessing that, according to its definition, a person must see which mood fits best with the tense given in the text. Noticed I underlined has occurred above. It appears that the English translators used the wrong tense within the translation of this Indicative mood if the Greek is trying to convey something that has occurred. Does the verb phrase is come convey something that has occurred? If anyone were to interpret has come from the beginning of Rev. 6:17 then the interpretation would fall solely upon the readers bias to what they read. (As done at the Pre-Trib research center.) The bias dictates the interpretation rather than the text. Could the above indicative mood involve the action of will occur to make sense of the English text given? I would thinks so, but just by the reading of this study many can see that I am far from an English major. I know even less about the Greek. I can only go be what I see the English text seems to convey and what the Strong concordance can teach. In other words, I’m not trying to seem to be an expert on the Greek or English language; all I am saying is I have seen the Pretribblationalist uses their bias to interpret their doctrine rather than the written word at face value. I would not doubt to eventually find out that the way the original translator wrote this portion of scripture, with the tense that is in place, are totally accurate to what is to come to pass. This really is straining at a Nat. The comparison with Matthew should be proof enough to persuade anyone who interprets scripture with scripture.

The last part of this study will involve the latter part of the 17th verse in Revelation 6 as well as closing comments on the visible appearing of Christ to all the tribes of the earth in Matthew 24:31.
The latter part of verse 17 gives a rhetorical question. and who shall be able to stand? The word stand means; establish, stand still, to be kept intact and so on. Although people perished through some of the seal difficulties upon the earth, people still survived the plagues that were demonstrated. They were able to keep intact. Matthew 24:37 states:

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Would it be safe to say that in the days of Noah nobody outside the Ark was able to stand? How many kept intact through the Flood or stood still? This is why I said that John’s question was rhetorical; he knews that none will be able to stand and that all will be destroyed at once. The fact that the Lamb is not yet visibly present until the sixth seal should also be an indicator that the time has not come to destroy the wicked people that commit iniquity and destroy the earth and the prophets.
(Rev.11:18, Isaiah 26:21,Rev.18:24,Rev.14-19)
To close I just wanted to reflect on the visible revealing of Christ in heaven upon a cloud. As Christ comes it states that He sends His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. This is done, scripture says, to gather the elect of God. When Christ calls all those that Wrath is not appointed too then what will he do after they have been gathered?

Revelation 14:14-20
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

It looks like John saw the same event that Matthew 24 records in verse 31. After the harvesting of those not appointed to Wrath; God displays His ultimate Wrath upon those that do not have the Lambs blood upon the doorposts of their hearts.

The seventh seal (Revelation 8:1) simply states that there will be a silence of a half hour. I don’t know when this is going to take place but I think that it will be after the Wrath of the Lamb; almost a silence to reflect on what just happened. I can imagine that when the Wrath of God takes place at the end of this age; even those deliver from it will be disturbed by the act.

End of part 3 and this study at present.

Whiteknight

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Why is all this stuff deleted vinsight4u?

I find it rather sad that God would write in His Bible that He is no respecter of persons, and then require us to study someone elses language in order for us to understand Him. Either God is sovriegn or He isn't.
There is no evidence for pretrib, or mid trib rapture except in mens minds. Read Mathew, luke, and Mark on the tribulation.

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Ya, I would've read them. I'd been gone for around a week and missed a lot of what was said. I don't really see that point of deleting posts. They're interesting. Plus, threads don't make any sense with half of the posts missing.

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