Originally posted by postrib
I believe it is also for everyone who reads Matthew 24.
And also for everyone who reads Matthew 24.
I believe it's for readers who will actually see the events of Matthew 24 fulfilled. Note that you skipped Matthew 24:29-31. Where is the "you" there and how did the apostles (or anyone since their time) experience the events of Matthew 24:29-31?
It is clear that it cannot be that everyone who reads Matthew 24 lives through those events described therein. There is only one endtimes generation, and it isn't you and me. It was the apostles' generation who were promised they would live through those events. Matthew 10:16-23 is for, to, and about the apostles is is not? It is. The parallel passage in Matthew 24:9-13 is also speaking of the apostles. You are making Matthew 24 an allegory, for you are arguing it was a failed prophecy to the apostles to whom Jesus promised those things. It takes an ALLEGORICAL reading of the passage to generate the hope that it might come to pass in our future. It happened to them and in their generation just as Jesus promised.
Jesus Christ specifically promised his apostles they would live to see his return in their generation (Matthew 23:36; 24:33-34), before their preaching to the nation was fulfilled (Matt 10:16-23), and before the last apostle had died (John 21:21-22; Matthew 16:27-28). Yet you deny that Jesus promised his apostles that they would see those events come to pass? How is that even possible or reasonable? Read here:
Jesus, speaking to his apostles, prophesied to them saying:
Matthew 24:2
verily I say unto YOU, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3-4
disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And Jesus answered and said UNTO THEM, Take heed that no man deceive YOU.
Matthew 24:6
And YOU shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted (this means the apostles as proven by Matt 10:17)
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (this means the apostles as proven by Matthew 10:22-23).
Matthew 24:15
When YOU therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains (this means the time of the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 in Luke 21:20-23).
Matthew 24:33-34
So likewise YOU, when YOU SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Originally posted by postrib
In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree)...The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948
That's an allegorical rendering. Scripture doesn't say that -- you have inserted it.
Next, you say that Matthew 24:25 is spoken to "everybody who would ever read the passage" (along with all the other "YOU" mentions in the Matt 24 passage). Will John Calvin, according to Matthew 24:15-18, see the abomination and flee Jerusalem? Was the prophecy to him? Of course not. Did Abraham Lincoln read Matthew 24:15-18 and will he then flee Jerusalem? Was the prophecy to him? No. Did C.I. Scofield see the armies surround Jerusalem and flee Jerusalem? Was it to him? Again, no. These men are all dead.
Ironically, the passage did come true LITERALLY in 66-67 AD for those to whom Christ made the promises and it is part of the historical record.
Your answer that Matthew 24:25 applies to all who read the passage is untenable. Compare Matt 24:25 to John 14:29, John 13:19 and John 16:4 and we see that Jesus only spoke that line to warn his apostles of things THEY were certain to face. Brother, I believe that you have made Matthew 24 an allegory for all peoples of all times. But, truth is, there is only one single last days generation, and the Holy inspired apostles said it was their generation (James 5:3; Heb 1:1-2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17; 1 Cor 10:11).
Originally posted by postrib
They didn't, we haven't, and he hasn't. The prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples. (spoken concerning Matthew 10:22-23)
Matthew 10:1-23 is specifically to his chosen apostles. If Jesus didn't return before they all died then aren't the liberals and skeptics right that Jesus made errors, and verifiably so? Even C.S. Lewis states Christ made errors on the doctrine of eschatology.
Originally posted by postrib
At the same time that the resurrection happens, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). This didn't happen to Paul or to the apostles or to anyone since their time.
Obviously, the dead are in Heaven now -- so it is clear that they were raised out of Hades at the end of the Law Age as Paul predicted:
1 Cor 15:55-56
"and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory. where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW
Paul preaches here that the dead were raised when the Law of Moses was fully destroyed. The events prophesied by Christ concerning the Temple and Jerusalem already happened, releasing the O.T. Dead out of Hades/Sheol (see also Rev 20:12-15). If Christ has not returned then none of the dead have yet escaped out of Hades (1 Cor 15:56; Rev 20:12-15) and the Catholics are right that it is still active as "Purgatorio" (the Latin for Hades). You hold the Roman Catholic position on this issue, whether you are aware of it or not. The Hades (Latin: "Purgatorio") of 1 Cor 15:55-56 is still active if one is a futurist (see Rev 20:12-15).
Originally posted by postrib
I believe "the 1st resurrection" (Revelation 20:6), that is, the resurrection and changing of all "they that are Christ's" (1 Corinthians 15:23) into their immortal bodies, will occur at a single point in time
Jesus Christ was the First Resurrection (1 Cor 15:20; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18; Acts 26:23)
GW says:
..Paul said the Thessalonians' persecution would be relieved by the event of the second coming of Christ (2 Thess 1:6-7)...
Postrib replies:
I believe the Thessalonians -- even though dead and in heaven -- will be at rest at the 2nd coming.
So they have not had their promised rest and are still suffering their 1st century persecution? The Thessalonians were not going to get rest from their persecutors until Christ came to give tribulation to them. This means the Thessalonian saints are still suffering and not at rest from their persecution. Again, a futurist position has to either create an allegory (ignoring the plain sense of the passage) or suffer the charge that Paul prophesied presumptuously and did err. Many Christians maintain that Paul simply erred.
Originally posted by postrib
I believe the Thessalonians -- even though dead and in heaven -- will be at rest at the 2nd coming.
They are not at rest from their persecutors if Christ didn't return. Paul prophesied that Christ's return would relieve them of their sufferings at the hands of their persecutors. You say it did not happen. This pits your position against Paul's -- both cannot be right and so a contradiction arises.
Originally posted by postrib
Even in death our bodies are preserved in some spiritual sense, for it says: "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18).
Are you saying that people don't have their bodies return back to dust? Paul says "BODY,
SOUL, AND SPIRIT," showing that he does not mean a "spiritual sense" as you claim (for he lists that option in the same sentence). I assure you that the Thessalonians' bodies are all dust now. Their molecules have become crops, other living animals, and part of the water cycle and fossil fuels for our tractors and such. All living things today on earth are blessed because they are dead and have gone back to dust and molecules that nourish us and are part of all living things today.
Originally posted by postrib
Who's "they" in verse 1 Thess 5:3? And that day won't overtake the Thessalonians as a thief.
"When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
I believe this refers to the destruction that will come upon the unsaved at the end of the tribulation and at the 2nd coming.
You are violating (avoiding?) the most basic rules of grammar and syntax. The
"you/us" in 1 Thess 5:1-11 is the Thessalonians. You are consistently demonstrating a violation of rules of syntax and grammar -- you are creating allegorical meanings in nearly every passage we discuss.
Next, what comfort could Paul's words have been to them if the "YOU" spoke of some far distant generation of people? Paul closes out his point saying: "
THEREFORE COMFORT YOURSELVES TOGETHER." If Paul is suggesting that the relief for these desperately persecuted Thessalonians was to come from an event thousands of years into the future he is cruel. Why did he mislead them? Paul would have to be a cruel mocker of the Thessalonians and of the seriousness of their persecution. Even more, Paul must be a cruel man if your view is correct -- for he leads them to believe it is to happen in their lifetimes to bring their relief; Paul gives no indication anywhere of any delay. Remember, Paul preached that his 1st century flocks would remain alive unto the Day of Christ (Phil 1:6,10; 1 Cor 1:7-8; Heb 10:25,37). The Thessalonians were therefore misled to believe that they would remain alive until the second coming (1 Thess 4:15-17) -- that is, "misled" if futurist postponement theories are to be adopted as truth.
Finally, the "THEY" in 1 Thess 5:3 is the people of 1 Thess 2:14 and 2 Thess 1:5-8.
You aren't following the most basic rules of grammar, so I don't know that we can continue to dialogue. If we can't agree on the rules of grammar then we are not able to get anywhere. How can any two people communicate if there aren't objective, accepted rules of grammar and syntax? You are employing another set of grammatical rules to be followed -- those rules are part of an ALLEGORICAL method you are using at every turn instead of adopting the plain, straightforward, literal text.
We are to let the scriptures teach us and inform our views (and not the other way around). Agreed? I maintain that you have an allegorical interpretation of the Olivet, Jesus, and Paul that simply would have been foreign to them or their original audience.