Are Churches making a mistake?

nadroj1985 · Feb 14, 2004

Hello all

I have a question for everyone. I grew up in church all my life. My father was a Baptist minister and so I was in church as soon as I was able. Therefore, I've gone through what I am sure alot of you have as well. In church I was taught to believe in God, but I was never taught why. No attempts at really establishing a belief in God were made. I hate to say this, because there are alot of wonderful people I met in my church growing up, but more than anything else I feel like I was just told the doctrines of the Church and that I should believe them.

So, by the time I was a senior in high school, for the first time I really examined my belief in God and realized there was nothing there. I realized that I only believed in God because I had been told to do so, and I had no real belief whatsoever.

And I was terrified.

I tell you the truth, I was scared to death. I didn't know what to do. I had put so much stock in something that I really thought was probably untrue. I didn't talk about it with anyone because I was so afraid, and I really think that for a while there I could have reasonably called myself an atheist, or at least an agnostic. The thing is, I have always been an intellectual and somewhat of a skeptic, so I had many unanswered questions. When I realized my church had not answered any of these questions, I assumed there weren't any answers to them and I had to just go on blind faith. Surely they would have addressed this if it was this important. Right???

Since that time, I have searched for my answers, and while I haven't found them all, I have found a rational basis for my belief, in no small part thanks to some very wise people here at CF. Faith is still part of the issue of course, and always will be, but it is not blind anymore.

My question is this. Why didn't my church address this at some point? I am sure there are many like me that didn't get the intellectual basis for their beliefs from church, and maybe some of them have turned from it because of this. Shouldn't this scare churches enough that they feel they should address this issue?

My main problem with the church was that they stressed some sort of herd mentality--just agree with me when I tell you to believe in God, and agree with all my conceptions of God and you'll be OK. One of the most important things I've learned since that scary time is that everyone's faith is their own; everyone has different ideas of what it means to be a Christian. Shouldn't we be teaching this in churches as well? When I realized I didn't agree with some things other Christians thought, this scared me as well. Now I realize that is OK. My church never mentioned this.

So what do you guys think?? Are Churches making a mistake in not commenting on these issues??

wonder111 · Feb 14, 2004

I agree that would be scary. My experience was different, I was brought up to come to my own belief in God, life etc. Currently, the minister at the church I attend is very open about other ideas and understanding everyone is different with their beliefs. We sometimes study book readings on different 'controversial' writers, not to be afraid of them but to come to understand them better.

I guess I should say, questions are accepted and are actually a good thing

Vedant · Feb 14, 2004

I think so. I asked one of my Christian friends who always need to mention God or Jesus (not that it's a bad thing) in everyday conversation. We started arguing about something, the whole liberal/conservative thing. After mentioning God and Jesus like probably 100's of times, I started to get annoyed, because the conversation wasn't really going anywhere, so I flat out asked him, "Why the f*** are you Christian anyway? He looked at me blankly for a while. I doubt he'd asked himself that in a long time, if ever. Then I asked him, "What's so special about this Christianity thing that you keep mentioning?" Another blank stare. Anyway, what was supposed to be a 30 minute after-dinner-snack break, turned into a 6 hour conversation.

So, he asked me, why I was.

I said many things, but some main points:

#1 I was born into it.
#2 I couldn't live life without love.

The first reason, is a very good reason. My mom did a great job of raising me. I'll do the same for my kids. The second is why I still believe in Jesus. He's a God of love, and no other religion is so magnanimous.

nadroj1985 · Feb 14, 2004

wonder111 said:
I agree that would be scary. My experience was different, I was brought up to come to my own belief in God, life etc. Currently, the minister at the church I attend is very open about other ideas and understanding everyone is different with their beliefs. We sometimes study book readings on different 'controversial' writers, not to be afraid of them but to come to understand them better.

I guess I should say, questions are accepted and are actually a good thing

That's great. I really wish I had that kind of Church setting growing up.

wonder111 · Feb 14, 2004

well good thing you are still young!!!

BarbB · Feb 14, 2004

nadro - I was raised in a Presbyterian (USA) Sunday School and couldn't believe the things that I was NOT taught there. There's logic if one wants logic; there's passion if one wants passion; there's love, protection, feasting, salvation, much much more!

I hope that children are being taught all the wondrous things now, the why, not just the what!

nadroj1985 · Feb 14, 2004

newlamb said:
nadro - I was raised in a Presbyterian (USA) Sunday School and couldn't believe the things that I was NOT taught there. There's logic if one wants logic; there's passion if one wants passion; there's love, protection, feasting, salvation, much much more!

I hope that children are being taught all the wondrous things now, the why, not just the what!

Yes, I do too. What I'm wondering is why in the world so many churches aren't teaching this. It seems immensely important to me.

Hezmasaveyour · Feb 14, 2004

nadroj1985 said:
Hello all

I have a question for everyone. I grew up in church all my life. My father was a Baptist minister and so I was in church as soon as I was able. Therefore, I've gone through what I am sure alot of you have as well. In church I was taught to believe in God, but I was never taught why. No attempts at really establishing a belief in God were made. I hate to say this, because there are alot of wonderful people I met in my church growing up, but more than anything else I feel like I was just told the doctrines of the Church and that I should believe them.

So, by the time I was a senior in high school, for the first time I really examined my belief in God and realized there was nothing there. I realized that I only believed in God because I had been told to do so, and I had no real belief whatsoever.

And I was terrified.

I tell you the truth, I was scared to death. I didn't know what to do. I had put so much stock in something that I really thought was probably untrue. I didn't talk about it with anyone because I was so afraid, and I really think that for a while there I could have reasonably called myself an atheist, or at least an agnostic. The thing is, I have always been an intellectual and somewhat of a skeptic, so I had many unanswered questions. When I realized my church had not answered any of these questions, I assumed there weren't any answers to them and I had to just go on blind faith. Surely they would have addressed this if it was this important. Right???

Since that time, I have searched for my answers, and while I haven't found them all, I have found a rational basis for my belief, in no small part thanks to some very wise people here at CF. Faith is still part of the issue of course, and always will be, but it is not blind anymore.

My question is this. Why didn't my church address this at some point? I am sure there are many like me that didn't get the intellectual basis for their beliefs from church, and maybe some of them have turned from it because of this. Shouldn't this scare churches enough that they feel they should address this issue?

My main problem with the church was that they stressed some sort of herd mentality--just agree with me when I tell you to believe in God, and agree with all my conceptions of God and you'll be OK. One of the most important things I've learned since that scary time is that everyone's faith is their own; everyone has different ideas of what it means to be a Christian. Shouldn't we be teaching this in churches as well? When I realized I didn't agree with some things other Christians thought, this scared me as well. Now I realize that is OK. My church never mentioned this.

So what do you guys think?? Are Churches making a mistake in not commenting on these issues??

My father is a Baptist Minister, and I went throught the same thing that you did , exept I was 12 or 13. I didnt realize where my faith lied , and I was scared.I started to read the word for myself and then I found Jesus again.

GreenPartyVoter · Feb 15, 2004

Some churches do let you think rather than just try to coast on through life with a set of black and white commandments. (I understand the churches which just lay down the law, they think they are making life easier by taking choices out of it for their followers. But let's face it, not everyone is happy living that way and want to think things through for themselves)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet! :clap:

Routerider · Feb 15, 2004

Vedant said:
I think so. I asked one of my Christian friends who always need to mention God or Jesus (not that it's a bad thing) in everyday conversation. We started arguing about something, the whole liberal/conservative thing. After mentioning God and Jesus like probably 100's of times, I started to get annoyed, because the conversation wasn't really going anywhere, so I flat out asked him, "Why the f*** are you Christian anyway? He looked at me blankly for a while. I doubt he'd asked himself that in a long time, if ever. Then I asked him, "What's so special about this Christianity thing that you keep mentioning?" Another blank stare. Anyway, what was supposed to be a 30 minute after-dinner-snack break, turned into a 6 hour conversation.

So, he asked me, why I was.

I said many things, but some main points:

#1 I was born into it.
#2 I couldn't live life without love.

The first reason, is a very good reason. My mom did a great job of raising me. I'll do the same for my kids. The second is why I still believe in Jesus. He's a God of love, and no other religion is so magnanimous.

Actually, to me, I think item #1 is a lousy reason. Being "born into it" is not exactly a solid reason for why you believe what you believe. What if your parents taught you to the Muslim religion...would that be your choice today?

Mr.Pious · Feb 16, 2004

probally, majority of christians are christians because thats what their parents were. There is no other way you would be able to believe a story like that un;ess you were really gullible. It is like the story of the Greek gods.

Vedant · Feb 16, 2004

It's a good reason in my opinion because it shows how nurturing my mother was to me as I grew up. She made sure I learned what I needed to learn, taught me how to be a good person, taught me the details of our religion. How is that lousy? Are children supposed to magically start praying by themselves and come to Jesus? No, that's why we have parents when we're young, authorities placed by God over us in our years of development. I'd hope that Christianity, once a part of a family remains part of a family forever, to be passed down from elders to descendents. It has for my family, and it's not like that's the only reason. The second reason is where I and everyone else in my family chooses Christianity, actively, given the realistic choice of throwing it all away.

And yes, if I were raised muslim, it would by highly likely that I'd be muslim. It is so difficult for me to understand how one could change belief systems. Just a question...how easy would it be for you to become a muslim? As difficult or impossible as it would be for you is as difficult or impossible it would be for a muslim to become Christian.

Arnold_Philips · Feb 16, 2004

I guess I was pretty lucky. My parents raised me without any specific direction, and I would like to think I turned out okay. I mean, they raised me vaguely Christian, but nothing really in depth. There was nothing in my childhood of my parents telling me who to vote for, or who to worship, or who is right and wrong. They let me decide for myself.

My church (Baptist and then Disciples of Christ) didn't present anything but the baby Christian stuff, nothing I could really seek my teeth into. But I guess that's a good thing, because it let me branch out on my own, and to follow God accordingly.

PastorFreud · Feb 16, 2004

My church background was dogmatic. I came to faith in a strict fundamentalist church. There was a lot of fear and the "church as a fortress" mentality. Questions and doubts were not acceptable. We had three services, and the fire and brimstone salvation message was always the topic. I was a teenager.

We moved and I made a fatal mistake for my faith. I read the whole Bible through in a modern version in the space of about three months. This definitely warped me toward rejecting dogmatism.

But at first I found a fundamentalist church in the new city and went back to being steeped in it. I preached on street corners with a megaphone, passed out gospel tracts at the bars, evangelized at rock concerts, and more that I don't care to tell. This eventually led to a crisis in my faith. Never being allowed to doubt and to ask questions, they all hit me at once. I didn't walk away, but I wrestled for a year or more. Heck, I may even still be wrestling.

But now I attend a church where the questions are encouraged. We explore multiple viewpoints. We have a diversity of beliefs within our congregation, and we don't let that divide us.

I do struggle with what to teach the children. My material for Sunday School frequently stresses the wrong points. "Now children, I am going to tell you this true story from the Bible...." I just tell the story and we figure out how it might apply to us today. With older kids, we have encouraged questions by watching popular movies and discussing the themes. I don't know if our kids will hit a huge wall of disillusionment or not.

Even though I make efforts, my own kids are often confused. I let them attend AWANA at a congregation down the street. They came home telling me that dinosaurs still exist on the planet and scientists are evil. Another time a traveling singing group came in and did the hellfire and brimstone message. They had songs that belittled Budhists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and more.

A few years ago I visited a church at the request of an acquantance. I thought it was odd that no women were involved in the service, but they had a strange format and I thought it could be a coincidence. I asked my host at the break and he explained that women were not allowed to speak in church. I immediately gathered by family and left. No need to waste any time there.

I do worry about my kids though. They are all adopted, special needs kids, and I don't want to see them caught up in graceless moralism. If they do, it will come back to bite them someday like it did me.

But Nadroj, the reality is that my church is dying. Meanwhile, the conservative church down the street preaching "Come visit us, we still take a stand against homosexuality" is growing. They preach fear and present the "church as a fortress" mentality. Come be safe within our walls. One even has on its sign "we have not changed in 2000 years." And they are growing.

nadroj1985 · Feb 16, 2004

PastorFreud said:
My church background was dogmatic. I came to faith in a strict fundamentalist church. There was a lot of fear and the "church as a fortress" mentality. Questions and doubts were not acceptable. We had three services, and the fire and brimstone salvation message was always the topic. I was a teenager.

We moved and I made a fatal mistake for my faith. I read the whole Bible through in a modern version in the space of about three months. This definitely warped me toward rejecting dogmatism.

But at first I found a fundamentalist church in the new city and went back to being steeped in it. I preached on street corners with a megaphone, passed out gospel tracts at the bars, evangelized at rock concerts, and more that I don't care to tell. This eventually led to a crisis in my faith. Never being allowed to doubt and to ask questions, they all hit me at once. I didn't walk away, but I wrestled for a year or more. Heck, I may even still be wrestling.

But now I attend a church where the questions are encouraged. We explore multiple viewpoints. We have a diversity of beliefs within our congregation, and we don't let that divide us.

I do struggle with what to teach the children. My material for Sunday School frequently stresses the wrong points. "Now children, I am going to tell you this true story from the Bible...." I just tell the story and we figure out how it might apply to us today. With older kids, we have encouraged questions by watching popular movies and discussing the themes. I don't know if our kids will hit a huge wall of disillusionment or not.

Even though I make efforts, my own kids are often confused. I let them attend AWANA at a congregation down the street. They came home telling me that dinosaurs still exist on the planet and scientists are evil. Another time a traveling singing group came in and did the hellfire and brimstone message. They had songs that belittled Budhists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and more.

A few years ago I visited a church at the request of an acquantance. I thought it was odd that no women were involved in the service, but they had a strange format and I thought it could be a coincidence. I asked my host at the break and he explained that women were not allowed to speak in church. I immediately gathered by family and left. No need to waste any time there.

I do worry about my kids though. They are all adopted, special needs kids, and I don't want to see them caught up in graceless moralism. If they do, it will come back to bite them someday like it did me.

But Nadroj, the reality is that my church is dying. Meanwhile, the conservative church down the street preaching "Come visit us, we still take a stand against homosexuality" is growing. They preach fear and present the "church as a fortress" mentality. Come be safe within our walls. One even has on its sign "we have not changed in 2000 years." And they are growing.

Great post, Pastor, I really have felt alot of what you have I think. The last paragraph almost made me cry. I don't want to believe that this is true. Why are these churches that promote fear and scare tactics the ones that grow? It almost seems too sad to accept for me.

dnich163 · Feb 17, 2004

I don't know this church.

The church of which I am part is one that requires the individual to question.

This is different from the dogma that the church has to teach; because of it's very nature in being true to God's word and commandments.

David

Vicki · Feb 17, 2004

Churches have a responsibility to tell it like it is--to preach the truth the way God lays it out in the Bible. And as little children we are taught these basic Christian doctrines and all the great stories. But there also comes a time in the life of every person who is raised in church when they have to decide for themselves what they truly believe. This is good. Then you can ask all the questions, do your research, pray, and come to your own personal relationship with Christ. If we are sincerely looking for truth, God will show us.

billwald · Feb 20, 2004

Christian silliness about "believing" doesn't compute. "Belief" is what? A conclusion based on insufficient data? If we have sufficient data then we can "know," right?

I suggest that you pray to the Holy Spirit for some sort of metaphysical communication or experience. You need for the Holy Spirit to testify to your spirit.

BookerB · Feb 20, 2004

I agree with billwald. I believe there ought to have been some kind spiritual happening or supernatural event in the life of the Believer that allows him to know that he knows.

PastorFreud · Feb 21, 2004

Vicki said:
Churches have a responsibility to tell it like it is--to preach the truth the way God lays it out in the Bible. And as little children we are taught these basic Christian doctrines and all the great stories. But there also comes a time in the life of every person who is raised in church when they have to decide for themselves what they truly believe. This is good. Then you can ask all the questions, do your research, pray, and come to your own personal relationship with Christ. If we are sincerely looking for truth, God will show us.

What precisely is "the way it is?" I don't think "the way it is" is the oversimplified mythology of hellfire and brimstone. The way it is Jesus, the full revelation of a God of love, kindness, and acceptance. The way it is is that God loves all God's children and wants to bring them home. If a church is preaching hatred disguised as piety, shame on them.

Are Churches making a mistake?

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