Are People a Mix?

[JacquelineDeane55]

A mixture of both good and bad? Depending on how you define "good" and "bad" that is.

I like to think that we all have some good in us, just in different amounts. I also like to think we have bad in us as well, or the ability to do things that are wrong. Something people call a "dark side."

Everyone has done at least 1 thing wrong in their lifetime.

People are like the color grey. We can do sin (like the Devil), and we can do righteousness (like Jesus). We have the ability to do both good and evil. But Jesus has to save us and make us be 100% good like he is with no bad nature at all. He will completely erase our dark sides and make us like the angels in Heaven.

That concept thrills me. The concept of being a totally good and moral person. I would love to be holy and 100% good like God is, but right now I still have my sin nature...

One day God will completely take away my sin. I am looking forward to it.

 

[partinobodycular]

In an odd Catch-22 I would say that nothing is intrinsically good or bad, except for the belief that things are good or bad.

 

[Meowzltov]

A mixture of both good and bad? Depending on how you define "good" and "bad" that is.

I like to think that we all have some good in us, just in different amounts. I also like to think we have bad in us as well, or the ability to do things that are wrong. Something people call a "dark side."

Everyone has done at least 1 thing wrong in their lifetime.

People are like the color grey. We can do sin (like the Devil), and we can do righteousness (like Jesus). We have the ability to do both good and evil. But Jesus has to save us and make us be 100% good like he is with no bad nature at all. He will completely erase our dark sides and make us like the angels in Heaven.

That concept thrills me. The concept of being a totally good and moral person. I would love to be holy and 100% good like God is, but right now I still have my sin nature...

One day God will completely take away my sin. I am looking forward to it.

Yes, I do think we have both an inclination to good and an inclination to evil. It's the standard Jewish view, but many other cultures share this view as well. Are you familiar with the Cherokee story of the two wolves?

 

[David Lamb]

A mixture of both good and bad? Depending on how you define "good" and "bad" that is.

I like to think that we all have some good in us, just in different amounts. I also like to think we have bad in us as well, or the ability to do things that are wrong. Something people call a "dark side."

Everyone has done at least 1 thing wrong in their lifetime.

People are like the color grey. We can do sin (like the Devil), and we can do righteousness (like Jesus). We have the ability to do both good and evil. But Jesus has to save us and make us be 100% good like he is with no bad nature at all. He will completely erase our dark sides and make us like the angels in Heaven.

That concept thrills me. The concept of being a totally good and moral person. I would love to be holy and 100% good like God is, but right now I still have my sin nature...

One day God will completely take away my sin. I am looking forward to it.

I think that the answer depends upon whether you are asking about good and bad from other people's perspective, or God's. Certainly we see good and bad traits in each other, but God, being perfectly holy, sees us all as sinners. I think of the verse that tells us that to God, even our righteousnesses are like filthy rags:

“But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.” (Isa 64:6 NKJV)

How we should praise God for the blood of our Saviour, which cleanses us from all our sins!

 

[partinobodycular]

I think that the answer depends upon whether you are asking about good and bad from other people's perspective, or God's.

I have to admit that I'm no biblical scholar, and I certainly have no right to speak for God, but I can't help but think that from God's perspective, we're just people. We don't do bad things because we're evil, we do bad things because life isn't fair, and the knowledge of good and evil means that we're no longer naive to that fact. We know all too intimately that life isn't fair, and we react to that inequity as any child understandably would. But that doesn't mean that God sees us as evil. He just sees us as people. It's we who see ourselves as evil, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean that that's how God sees us.

I think of the verse that tells us that to God, even our righteousnesses are like filthy rags:

“But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.” (Isa 64:6 NKJV)

Now I'm really going to step outside my lane, because I think that we need to differentiate between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is about dealing with sin through laws, and the New Testament is about dealing with sin through grace. We have to choose, not because God will punish us if we choose incorrectly, but because we will punish ourselves by forever fighting against demons that we ourselves create.

Love thy neighbor. Therein lies all the laws and all the prophets. And the only trick, is to see ourselves and others as God sees us... as people.

 

[David Lamb]

I have to admit that I'm no biblical scholar, and I certainly have no right to speak for God, but I can't help but think that from God's perspective, we're just people. We don't do bad things because we're evil, we do bad things because life isn't fair, and the knowledge of good and evil means that we're no longer naive to that fact. We know all too intimately that life isn't fair, and we react to that inequity as any child understandably would. But that doesn't mean that God sees us as evil. He just sees us as people. It's we who see ourselves as evil, and rightfully so, but that doesn't mean that that's how God sees us.



Now I'm really going to step outside my lane, because I think that we need to differentiate between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is about dealing with sin through laws, and the New Testament is about dealing with sin through grace. We have to choose, not because God will punish us if we choose incorrectly, but because we will punish ourselves by forever fighting against demons that we ourselves create.

Love thy neighbor. Therein lies all the laws and all the prophets. And the only trick, is to see ourselves and others as God sees us... as people.

Thanks for replying. I agree with Ryan McGraw, who wrote in the July 2024 edition of Tabletalk Magazine:

"Our personal rebellion against God and His law likely represents what we typically think about when we think about sin. Yet in light of the above, we should realize that we are not sinners merely because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners. When we read or hear God’s law, we should be convicted of our personal sins, which should lead us to personal repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Yet conviction of actual sin is a window through which we can see our hearts and our status before God more clearly as the Spirit convicts us.!

 

[partinobodycular]

"Our personal rebellion against God and His law likely represents what we typically think about when we think about sin. Yet in light of the above, we should realize that we are not sinners merely because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners. When we read or hear God’s law, we should be convicted of our personal sins, which should lead us to personal repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21). Yet conviction of actual sin is a window through which we can see our hearts and our status before God more clearly as the Spirit convicts us.!

No offense, but there's a lot packed into that paragraph that I don't agree with. Not to say that I'm somehow smarter than Mr. McGraw, but I'm definitely different. At this point in my life it takes more than just age-old passages in a book to convince me that something is true. I'm old, my naivete has long since left me, and so I question everything.

You're right though, it doesn't take anything more than a cursory look around to see that people aren't perfect, that's for sure. Then again, does God really expect us to be? Or does He simply expect us to be human... and it's we who mistakenly believe that He expects us to be perfect. And failing our own requirement to be perfect, does He simply want us to know that we're forgiven. We haven't offended Him. We haven't rebelled against Him. We've simply let our new found knowledge of good and evil convince us that we have. And so we run around screaming that the sky is falling, when the only reckoning that we ever needed to fear, is the one that we're inflicting upon ourselves.

Still, this is probably just senility catching up with me. In which case please consider me old and harmless. It's the one's whose rhetoric isn't harmless that you need to worry about.

 

[David Lamb]

No offense, but there's a lot packed into that paragraph that I don't agree with. Not to say that I'm somehow smarter than Mr. McGraw, but I'm definitely different. At this point in my life it takes more than just age-old passages in a book to convince me that something is true. I'm old, my naivete has long since left me, and so I question everything.

You're right though, it doesn't take anything more than a cursory look around to see that people aren't perfect, that's for sure. Then again, does God really expect us to be? Or does He simply expect us to be human... and it's we who mistakenly believe that He expects us to be perfect. And failing our own requirement to be perfect, does He simply want us to know that we're forgiven. We haven't offended Him. We haven't rebelled against Him. We've simply let our new found knowledge of good and evil convince us that we have. And so we run around screaming that the sky is falling, when the only reckoning that we ever needed to fear, is the one that we're inflicting upon ourselves.

Still, this is probably just senility catching up with me. In which case please consider me old and harmless. It's the one's whose rhetoric isn't harmless that you need to worry about.

Thank you for replying. If as you say we haven't offended God or rebelled against Him, why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Why did the apostle Paul acknowledge that his own righteousness was not enough:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

Thanks again for your post. It is so good to be able to disagree without being unpleasant.

 

[stevevw]

I think the idea of there being a good and bad nature is iherent in most religions.

This implies that by following the belief whether that be the moral codes or rituals and traditions that one makes themselves right with their god. For Christians this is being born again in Gods spirit that we can overcome that fallen nation.

But if thats the case then this also implies that those who don't meet their religions requirements for being saved and overcoming the bad nature will inevitably live opposed to that moral code and saved disposition.

By logic they should be the opposite. Not the same as those who are saved and have overcome the flesh and hold sin has over all humans. That means despite claims of Christ like morality those who reject God will inevitably sin. Will cultivate sin. They cannot avoid sin. More importantly they have no way of overcoming sin without Christ.

In that sense you cannot be a mix. You are either for or against Christ. You are either born again of the spirit. Or you are living according to the flesh. If the flesh is what Paul describes as sin. Then the world will inevitable cultivate this sin. Their fruits will be these sins. Even if they present as Woke or virtuious on the outside.

Or do you think that those without Christ can avoid becoming a slave to sin. If we are all sinners then no one can avoid this. Only with Christ can we overcome this.

 

[partinobodycular]

If we are all sinners then no one can avoid this. Only with Christ can we overcome this.

If this were true, then there should be a clear line of demarcation between Christians and non-Christians when it comes to sin. MAGA alone would lead me to believe that either Christians are just as apt to sin as everyone else, or there just aren't very many of them.

 

[partinobodycular]

If as you say we haven't offended God or rebelled against Him, why did Jesus have to die on the cross?

Because Christ is the archetype of what we hope to be... He was us. From Adam onward humanity has toiled, suffered, and died, and Christ took on that suffering, not as an appeasement to God, but as a kinship and inspiration to us. In His suffering and death He truly became God with us.

When you look at the cross you see Christ, but when I look at the cross I not only see Christ, but I also see the multitude of people who've suffered and died simply because life is hard, and we're only human. Take another look at that cross, it's not just Christ there, it's you, and me, and everyone else.

His suffering and death wasn't meant for the Father, it was meant for us... we're the reason.

Why did the apostle Paul acknowledge that his own righteousness was not enough:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

The righteousness that Paul counts as rubbish is that which he received for obedience to the law, but the righteousness that he values now is more akin to what he spoke of in his letter to the Romans. Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" It's those acts which come from the heart, by faith, that Paul now counts as righteousness, and those which came simply for obedience to the law, he counts as nothing.

He's not saying that our acts can't count as righteousness. It all depends upon why we do them.

You do realize that it says 'agnostic' in my profile. I'm not really someone that you as a Christian should be listening to, and there are a lot of people here who would definitely agree with that, including me.

 

[com7fy8]

Love thy neighbor. Therein lies all the laws and all the prophets. And the only trick, is to see ourselves and others as God sees us... as people.

The love your neighbor as yourself scripture that Jesus quoted is in > Leviticus 19:18 >

"'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.'" (Leviticus 19:18)

I note with particular interest how loving my neighbor, here, goes along with not holding grudges and not trying to get revenge. So, forgiving is a major part of loving my neighbor, I would say, from this scripture.

And I find how investing in forgiving has helped me to become stronger so evil or mistaken people can not get the better of me. Because, instead of going along with anger and bitterness and paranoid stupidity in me, I am investing in being ready to forgive anyone. This helps to make me more and more strong in gentle and kind and all-loving and generously forgiving relating with other people. And I would say, then, that God has changed me to become a better person, by changing me into being prayerful for any other person and preparing in prayer for love with any person, whether the other is ready for love, or not. And as I get more into loving, I have a way of not having time for wrong stuff.

And Jesus says if we learn from Him > "you will find rest for your souls" > in Matthew 11:28-30.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

By investing in submitting to God, all the time, in His peace . . . this helps me keep my attention in a good place. And that helps to keep me out of trouble

And these things are in God's word. Feeding on God's word, then, can help us to become God's way . . . not only more moral, but how His love has us becoming in our character.

 

[stevevw]

If this were true, then there should be a clear line of demarcation between Christians and non-Christians when it comes to sin. MAGA alone would lead me to believe that either Christians are just as apt to sin as everyone else, or there just aren't very many of them.

Thats because MAGA is not Christian. Neither is the ideology professed by the Left in whatever form it takes.

What political ideologies present to the world is a manifestation of human created ideologies. That itself is a sin. Don't think sin is obvious. Its presented as virtuious. Do you hear the elites and celebs virtue signaling. Do you see the politicians mingling with them. Using them to further their ideology.

Its all theatre and disguise. Its going to look good to many Christians who still want to hold on to the world and sin.

But its all lies. Thats how satan wins even the elect. It looks remarkably like Gods Kingdom. But its not.

Are we really surprised when these so call virtuious leaders get busted with all sorts of secret corruption and perversion. The US and other western nations are suppose to be the shining example of Christianity to the world. Thats where Christianity came from into the world.

Yet it is from these nations that we find the greatest sin of sexual perversion and child abuse. Hum, they hid it well. Which shows no matter how virtuious they appear to be and say the right words. In the dark secrets of their world they have cultivated sin. Inevitably if they are not born again of Christs spirit then no matter what people claim. They will decend into such sin. They cannot avoid this.

Whether that be the seven deadly sins such as pride. Now pride is made into a virtue by those claiming to be Christians or on the side of good. Greed is good, sex is a natural expression. Envy is good because it equalises society. Wrath is good as its social justice. Its standing up against the evildoers and sloath is ok because people are disadvantaged and can't help it.

Its all smoke and mirrors. Twisting the truth to become a lie.

 

[partinobodycular]

Thats because MAGA is not Christian. Neither is the ideology professed by the Left in whatever form it takes.

Then would you be so kind as to direct me to a group whose Christianity you don't question, and whose sinlessness can't be matched by a similar non-Christian group.

If you can't produce such a group, or demonstrate its unique sinlessness, then I can only assume that your claims of the exclusivity of Christian sinlessness are fallacious.

 

[David Lamb]

Because Christ is the archetype of what we hope to be... He was us. From Adam onward humanity has toiled, suffered, and died, and Christ took on that suffering, not as an appeasement to God, but as a kinship and inspiration to us. In His suffering and death He truly became God with us.

But the bible in both Old and New Testaments tells us that in His suffering He bore our sins:

“Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.” (Isa 53:4-5 NKJV)

“who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.” (1Pe 2:24 NKJV)

There may be bible passages that teach that He died to be an inspiration to us, but I can't think of them. Certainly the Old Testament notion of the kinsman redeemer pointed forward to the Saviour, but that doesn't mean that He didn't take the punishment due for His people's sins.

When you look at the cross you see Christ, but when I look at the cross I not only see Christ, but I also see the multitude of people who've suffered and died simply because life is hard, and we're only human. Take another look at that cross, it's not just Christ there, it's you, and me, and everyone else.

His suffering and death wasn't meant for the Father, it was meant for us... we're the reason.

We are told in Hebrews that He was a sacrifice to end all sacrifices. That sacrifice was made for His people to His heavenly Father. I am not sure what you mean about us being on the cross. Our sins are "nailed to His cross":

“And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” (Col 2:13-14 NKJV)

The righteousness that Paul counts as rubbish is that which he received for obedience to the law, but the righteousness that he values now is more akin to what he spoke of in his letter to the Romans. Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" It's those acts which come from the heart, by faith, that Paul now counts as righteousness, and those which came simply for obedience to the law, he counts as nothing.

He's not saying that our acts can't count as righteousness. It all depends upon why we do them.

You do realize that it says 'agnostic' in my profile. I'm not really someone that you as a Christian should be listening to, and there are a lot of people here who would definitely agree with that, including me.

I must apologised that I hadn't looked at your profile before replying.

 

[stevevw]

Then would you be so kind as to direct me to a group whose Christianity you don't question, and whose sinlessness can't be matched by a similar non-Christian group.

They are the one you don't see or hear of in politics or the culture war. They are the ones quietly sacrificing their life for Christ in helping others.

The difference is they don't need the world approval or recognition. In fact Christ said those who are first will be last and thise who are last will be first.

So you won't see them as any identity group under a denomination or humanism or wokism. Which like the Pharisees likes to announce their good works. This is all hidden. Just the opposite of the hidden sins in the world. This is hidden Christlikeness.

If you can't produce such a group, or demonstrate its unique sinlessness, then I can only assume that your claims of the exclusivity of Christian sinlessness are fallacious.

I look to the early church as the prime example. Imagine that church today and you have your answer.

This was the first and second generations after Christ. They knew best being so close to the events. If we look at their practices and teachings. Which come directly from Christ. Then we can know what it will look like. What fruits it will bear.

This kind of church would be radical to days churches. It would be radical to the culture war. It would be the only group that does what it preaches before it says a word. Then when it does speak it speaks with authority in Christ.

Someone mentioned the bible verse about the early Christians selling their possessions to help the poor. Even outting themselves out to help. Thats what is needed to show the good fruits of a church who does not sin or cultivate sin.

 

[fhansen]

He's not saying that our acts can't count as righteousness. It all depends upon why we do them.

This is true! And it's the reason the greatest commandments are what they are, the reason Jesus had this to say:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and,

‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” Luke 10:25-28

Then He proceeds to tell the story of the Good Samaritan. That's the gospel in a nutshell. And Jesus showed us that kind of love in a definitive way-while being the very means to that love.

 

[partinobodycular]

I must apologised that I hadn't looked at your profile before replying.

My bad, I need to learn to keep my opinions to myself.

 

[partinobodycular]

They are the one you don't see or hear of in politics or the culture war. They are the ones quietly sacrificing their life for Christ in helping others.

The difference is they don't need the world approval or recognition. In fact Christ said those who are first will be last and thise who are last will be first.

So you won't see them as any identity group under a denomination or humanism or wokism. Which like the Pharisees likes to announce their good works. This is all hidden. Just the opposite of the hidden sins in the world. This is hidden Christlikeness.

Who knows, they might even call themselves agnostics.

 

[Larniavc]

A mixture of both good and bad? Depending on how you define "good" and "bad" that is.

I like to think that we all have some good in us, just in different amounts. I also like to think we have bad in us as well, or the ability to do things that are wrong. Something people call a "dark side."

Everyone has done at least 1 thing wrong in their lifetime.

People are like the color grey. We can do sin (like the Devil), and we can do righteousness (like Jesus). We have the ability to do both good and evil. But Jesus has to save us and make us be 100% good like he is with no bad nature at all. He will completely erase our dark sides and make us like the angels in Heaven.

That concept thrills me. The concept of being a totally good and moral person. I would love to be holy and 100% good like God is, but right now I still have my sin nature...

One day God will completely take away my sin. I am looking forward to it.

Labeling people as good or bad seems an extra layer of vague description. For example my mate Andy is really kind and considerate in general but can be a bit self involved and is prone to back and white thinking. He'd give you the shirt off his back but can be a bit smug sometimes. Where is the value in labeling him as good or bad?