OU Student given a zero for citing the bible in essay

[BCP1928]

And if I had wheels I'd be a wagon

How it's been playing out in the real world is that when these sorts of disputes occur in conservative jurisdictions and regions, the schools end up having to shell out six figure settlements

And yes, obviously the university has attorneys too You don't think they were involved in the school's decision making on that?

Yes it's best to just ride out a witch hunt. I'm old enough to remember when it was "godless communism" that couldn't be talked about, because discussing it in any other than the approved anti-communist propaganda terms was suppressed. But it won't last. I'm sorry for LGBT people, but it won't be worse than the '50s for them

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes it's best to just ride out a witch hunt. I'm old enough to remember when it was "godless communism."

"The kids decide which teachers get to stay and which ones need to get booted" was a precedent that was already set. When universities started bowing to pressure and implementing speech codes, and suspending professors for infractions such as misgendering, they already ceded that ground to the kids.

Anyone with a lens that saw further out than the next 2 months knew that when the "in power" dynamics changed (as they always do in the US political landscape), that pendulum was going to come back the other way.

 

[BCP1928]

"The kids decide which teachers get to stay and which ones need to get booted" was a precedent that was already set. When universities started bowing to pressure and implementing speech codes, and suspending professors for infractions such as misgendering, they already ceded that ground to the kids.

Anyone with a lens that saw further out than the next 2 months knew that when the "in power" dynamics changed (as they always do in the US political landscape), that pendulum was going to come back the other way.

Two different questions in play so the comparison is not apt. One is about how LGBTs are to be interacted with. The other is about suppressing facts about LGBT, even the fact that LGBTs exist at all.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Oops, wrong thread

 

[NxNW]

Why should they be treated differently than any other students?

Nobody but the right is saying they should.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Two different questions in play so the comparison is not apt. One is about how LGBTs are to be interacted with. The other is about suppressing facts about LGBT, even the fact that LGBTs exist at all.

The minutia of the questions themselves isn't the relevant part...the relevant aspect is "the power/influence dynamic is the same."

That being determining the answer to the over-arching question "Should teachers get fired/suspended for saying/doing things that offend a student if the present political power is currently aligned with the student?"

People seem to want to selectively answer based on current political conditions. It's not going to work like that.

Either everyone would have to collectively agree to be principled on the matter and and have a gentelmen's agreement to tolerate some speech and expression they don't like right from the get go, or end up going with the approach we have now which tit-for-tat counterpunching every 4 years when the political dynamics change.

Society chose the latter...

 

[BCP1928]

The minutia of the questions themselves isn't the relevant part...the relevant aspect is "the power/influence dynamic is the same."

That being determining the answer to the over-arching question "Should teachers get fired/suspended for saying/doing things that offend a student if the present political power is currently aligned with the student?"

People seem to want to selectively answer based on current political conditions. It's not going to work like that.

Either everyone would have to collectively agree to be principled on the matter and and have a gentelmen's agreement to tolerate some speech and expression they don't like right from the get go, or end up going with the approach we have now which tit-for-tat counterpunching every 4 years when the political dynamics change.

Society chose the latter...

Should a student get a bad grade for failing completely to meet the specific requirements of the assignment?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Should a student get a bad grade for failing completely to meet the specific requirements of the assignment?

The University officials had noted:
"Based on an examination of the graduate teaching assistant’s prior grading standards and patterns, as well as the graduate teaching assistant’s own statements related to this matter, it was determined that the graduate teaching assistant was arbitrary in the grading of this specific paper," the state's flagship school said in a Monday evening statement. "The graduate teaching assistant will no longer have instructional duties at the University."

Should an instructor be allowed to grade by a different set of standards based on injection of personal biases when an assignment touches on an area that's "close to home" for them?

...and on an assignment, no less, that one could reasonably argue was in the theme of "concede the premise"? (IE: Asking students to write a paper that operates on the assumption that's the instructor's position on a subjective topic is the correct one)

Reaction Paper Requirements crop.png

drive.google.com

 

[Hans Blaster]

That's not what the supervising professor stated earlier.

 

[durangodawood]

The University officials had noted:
"Based on an examination of the graduate teaching assistant’s prior grading standards and patterns, as well as the graduate teaching assistant’s own statements related to this matter, it was determined that the graduate teaching assistant was arbitrary in the grading of this specific paper," the state's flagship school said in a Monday evening statement. "The graduate teaching assistant will no longer have instructional duties at the University."

Should an instructor be allowed to grade by a different set of standards based on injection of personal biases when an assignment touches on an area that's "close to home" for them?

...and on an assignment, no less, that one could reasonably argue was in the theme of "concede the premise"? (IE: Asking students to write a paper that operates on the assumption that's the instructor's position on a subjective topic is the correct one)

Reaction Paper Requirements crop.png

drive.google.com

That doesnt hold up to what we know about the subject, the assignment, and the students paper.

Of course, all bets are off if we've been fed lies about those 3 items.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That doesnt hold up to what we know about the subject, the assignment, and the students paper.

Of course, all bets are off if we've been fed lies about those 3 items.

Being that this instructor has legal representation that was already involved in the matter.

If it was a matter of the University officials flat out lying about what they found in their review, that would have been a slam dunk for the TA's lawyer, wouldn't it? (all of that stuff has to be disclosed to both parties' lawyers)

While their review of the TA's statements (and how potentially biased they were or weren't) could be subjective in the eyes of the review board, the TA's prior grading patterns are things that would be tangible and documented. For instance, if they saw that this TA had been rather lax in most cases, but super strict on this one, specifically with regards to this one particular paper, that would be a red flag (not saying that's what happened, just using as an example)

...and given that people in the upper echelon tend to take up for their own if at all possible (we've seen universities defend outright bad instructors before)

You know there had to be multiple lawyers (both from the university, and the TAs lawyer) going over this stuff with a fine tooth comb.

 

[durangodawood]

Being that this instructor has legal representation that was already involved in the matter.

If it was a matter of the University officials flat out lying about what they found in their review, that would have been a slam dunk for the TA's lawyer, wouldn't it? (all of that stuff has to be disclosed to both parties' lawyers)

While their review of the TA's statements (and how potentially biased they were or weren't) could be subjective in the eyes of the review board, the TA's prior grading patterns are things that would be tangible and documented. For instance, if they saw that this TA had been rather lax in most cases, but super strict on this one, specifically with regards to this one particular paper, that would be a red flag (not saying that's what happened, just using as an example)

...and given that people in the upper echelon tend to take up for their own if at all possible (we've seen universities defend outright bad instructors before)

You know there had to be multiple lawyers (both from the university, and the TAs lawyer) going over this stuff with a fine tooth comb.

Lots of second guessing about legal strategies there. It would need to negate the primary facts that we have of the subject, the assignment, and the paper delivered for sensible people to give the student a passing grade on this one.

 

[Pommer]

We’re still allowed to not begin to form an opinion on topics that have competing factions and wholly incomplete narratives, right?

 

[Hans Blaster]

@Pommer if you write it as an essay for class it doesn't matter anymore. Anything goes.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

We’re still allowed to not begin to form an opinion on topics that have competing factions and wholly incomplete narratives, right?

In this case, what other "completeness" would there need to be in this scenario?

In a nutshell:

- roughly 2 months ago, there was a dispute over how an assignment was graded
- the student claims there was bias given the circumstances
- the TA claims there was not
- they both lawyered up
- university (obviously) consulted their legal team...at least I'd open a major university with one of the largest endowments in the country would if they're worth their salt.

The university's review concluded:
"Based on an examination of the graduate teaching assistant’s prior grading standards and patterns, as well as the graduate teaching assistant’s own statements related to this matter, it was determined that the graduate teaching assistant was arbitrary in the grading of this specific paper,"


Not sure what other bureaucracy and "process" people are expecting.

I suspect that no matter arbitration entity reviewing it, the people on the side of the TA are going to have issue with anything other than "The TA wins".

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Being that this instructor has legal representation that was already involved in the matter.

If it was a matter of the University officials flat out lying about what they found in their review, that would have been a slam dunk for the TA's lawyer, wouldn't it? (all of that stuff has to be disclosed to both parties' lawyers)

Slam dunk for what? Oklahoma has at-will employment - the university can fire anyone for no reason at all, so long as it does not relate to their membership in a protected class. I'm not sure how that would apply in this case, and TAs generally aren't part of a union (though that's starting to change) nor do they generally have contracts.

While their review of the TA's statements (and how potentially biased they were or weren't) could be subjective in the eyes of the review board, the TA's prior grading patterns are things that would be tangible and documented. For instance, if they saw that this TA had been rather lax in most cases, but super strict on this one, specifically with regards to this one particular paper, that would be a red flag (not saying that's what happened, just using as an example)

It's certainly possible, but I see no reason to simply take the university's word for it. I'd want to see some evidence for the accusation of inconsistency.

You know there had to be multiple lawyers (both from the university, and the TAs lawyer) going over this stuff with a fine tooth comb.

I have no doubt that firing the TA was fully legal. But it was still a choice that the university made, and one that reflects poorly on them as an institution.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I suspect that no matter arbitration entity reviewing it, the people on the side of the TA are going to have issue with anything other than "The TA wins".

Given the facts that are available, this seems the only reasonable outcome. I would need additional facts in order to change my view on the matter.

 

[Hans Blaster]

In this case, what other "completeness" would there need to be in this scenario?

In a nutshell:

- roughly 2 months ago, there was a dispute over how an assignment was graded
- the student claims there was bias given the circumstances
- the TA claims there was not
- they both lawyered up
- university (obviously) consulted their legal team...at least I'd open a major university with one of the largest endowments in the country would if they're worth their salt.

The university's review concluded:
"Based on an examination of the graduate teaching assistant’s prior grading standards and patterns, as well as the graduate teaching assistant’s own statements related to this matter, it was determined that the graduate teaching assistant was arbitrary in the grading of this specific paper,"


Not sure what other bureaucracy and "process" people are expecting.

I suspect that no matter arbitration entity reviewing it, the people on the side of the TA are going to have issue with anything other than "The TA wins".

This is based on what? A press release from OU?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

How much does everyone need to donate to get this fixed?

I have a reply I've tried to send 20 times and it's not going through. Online debating is no longer a relaxing activity lol

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Slam dunk for what? Oklahoma has at-will employment - the university can fire anyone for no reason at all, so long as it does not relate to their membership in a protected class.

At will employment isn't as sweeping as people seem to think it is
There's still nothing preventing a wrongful termination lawsuit if the terminated employee can make a valid claim of retaliation

Also, many of those right to work and at will provisions are shaved off when an organization is receiving federal funds and grants or is a public educational institution.
If this was really a pure case of a biased panel and OK laws allowed for college instructors to get axed for any reason or no reason at all, they wouldn't have spent two months reviewing and do what they did. The would have just said buh bye and shown the TA the door

It's certainly possible, but I see no reason to simply take the university's word for it. I'd want to see some evidence for the accusation of inconsistency.

The TA was a part of a protected federal class were they not? Do you think a major university of that size would be taking that risk if they didn't think they had the goods to back it up should it end up in the court system?

I have no doubt that firing the TA was fully legal. But it was still a choice that the university made, and one that reflects poorly on them as an institution.

Yes, because they have a battery of attorneys who told them that was the most prudent option given the circumstances