What happens spiritually that makes us born again?

[timothyu]

Spiritual cleansing is the removal of self-serving ways common to the instinct of physical man.

 

[Dave...]

Do you believe John the Baptist was baptizing people with water? John 1:26
Do you believe Jesus was baptized with water?
Jesus' disciples were baptizing lots of people before Pentecost, but Jesus did not baptize anyone.
John 4:1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Hey bling

I'm not sure what your point of contention is here. Elaborate on it if you have one. Right now I'm only guessing. Yes, all those verses say water baptism. Do you agree that Jesus did and still does baptize with the Holy Spirit in response to a genuine faith, which "places us" in Him, a spiritual "immersion" that makes us one with Him, the Body, the true Church? You'll notice that anything that I wrote that is between "quotation marks" are used in place of the word baptism, because they mean the same thing. Example....

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

My translation: For by one Spirit we were all "placed into" into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

another....

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

My interpretation: I indeed "immerse" you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will "immerse" you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

I specifically in my post: Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation, since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do to help them and others.

Sorry, it sounded to me like you're playing both sides of the fence. So many today are wrongly taught that water baptism is what initiates the Spiritual baptism. If you're being water baptized, you already have faith, and are already spiritually baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit before you hit that water. Agree?

1 Peter 3:...In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The water (and Peter is talking about real water here) is not to cleanse (wash the body), but the water (coming up out of the water) represents Christ resurrection.

Sorry bling, I disagree. I believe that the water represents God's judgment. That's what the flood was. "In Christ", our Arc, we are protected from that Judgment just like Noah and family were. It's a perfect picture of our Spirit baptism. Not the removal of filth from the flesh is just like saying not water baptism. Just so there was no misunderstanding.

Circumcision was not done away with (replaced) on Pentecost water baptism. Paul never said Jews should not be circumcised and/or baptism replace circumcision. I think we can agree John's water baptism stopped, so did Christian water baptism replace John's baptism?
Again water baptism does not save you, but does it help you?

Hey bling, the circumcision's comment was just a point of possible interest that I threw in there.

OT water baptism was simply identifying with a persons teachings publicly. That's all it is. A public testimony. That idea carried over to the NT. It pictured outwardly what had already happened inwardly as a result of faith. It identified us with Christ Jesus publicly. Some were baptized only into the name of Jesus because the Holy Spirit and the Father were already understood to be a part of them. The point of contention with the public testimony of these OT believers would have been the name Jesus. Others, found it better to publicly identify with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, since they were never believers in the OT.

OT believers were baptized into the name of the teacher they were under. Remember Paul confronting the Corinthians for arguing about being baptized by Paul or Apollos? It all came from that. The one true baptism is the one BY Jesus with the Holy Spirit. It's a spiritual baptism initiated by faith. Water baptism comes after that fact as a public testimony. Paul even finished by saying that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel". That would be a very, very odd thing to say if water baptism had anything to do with anything beyond a public testimony.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

bling, I've seen this with Catholicism before, they are not really doing what they are doing, and not really saying what they are saying. You're language just sounded very familiar to the kind of language that they so often use, hence the "playing both sides of the fence" comment. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Dave

 

[bling]

John's water immersion was an immersion of repentance, meaning it was symbolic of the Spiritual immersion/born from above experience we could receive from Jesus once he was seated to the right of The Father and granted The Holy Spirit.

Where are you finding in scripture: "John's water immersion was an immersion of repentance, meaning it was symbolic of the Spiritual immersion/born"? John's baptism was a covenant action to show a commitment to accepting God's forgiveness and turning your life around.

Water in reference to immersion is always symbolic of The Holy Spirit. It's just another step in following Jesus and His example He gave us.

How do you show: Immersion in water is always symbolic of the Holy Spirit, since the Jew immersed ceremonially in many ways?

 

[ARBITER01]

Where are you finding in scripture: "John's water immersion was an immersion of repentance, meaning it was symbolic of the Spiritual immersion/born"? John's baptism was a covenant action to show a commitment to accepting God's forgiveness and turning your life around.

How do you show: Immersion in water is always symbolic of the Holy Spirit, since the Jew immersed ceremonially in many ways?

These are basic NT understandings,.... why don't you understand them?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

What are the spiritual mechanics of being born again?

I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism.

If you ask someone what being born is, they're likely to respond with something like the wind blows where it wills, all from John 3, etc. But I think the Bible does give us some insight and that insight helps tremendously in interpreting Scripture over all.

When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we receive everything at once, all the ingredients to be saved. Thus we are complete "in Him" and lacking nothing (Col. 2:10-14). This is the Church, the Body, that the placing into, or the baptism with the Holy Spirit spiritually unites us with. By receiving the indwelling as a result of our faith, we are placed into Christ, becoming one with Him. Setting aside the legality of our salvation, that is, being saved/delivered from the penalty of sin, the focus in this thread will mainly be in our being saved/delivered from the power of sin. This is the practical side of being saved and is called being born again, which not only frees us from the power of sin, but also allows us to begin to be conformed to Christ likeness (Gal. 3:2-3).

Being born again is the result of being placed into Christ.

When the Bible speaks of our being raised up with Him, or raised up in Christ, it's speaking of our being born again. When it speaks of being crucified with Christ, dying with Him, that is the necessary death that must precede being raised up with Him. When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we're also placed into/immersed/baptized into His death, and raised up with Him, thus we are born again.

These are verses that I believe are speaking of being born again, though they do not use the typical language. These are all speking of the Spirit baptism, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col. 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal. 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit (baptism with the Holy Spirit) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? ---- *(added by me)*

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized (with the Holy Spirit) into Christ have put on Christ. ---- *(added by me)*

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Being born again is simultaneous to being placed into Christ, also being placed into Jesus' death and raised up with Him.

The Bible tells us that we are saved/delivered through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe this is saved/delivered both judicially and being born again. But when the Bible speaks of being 'raised up with Him', like Ephesians 2:6, I believe that it's specifically speaking of our being born again.

Do you recognize this Scripture of speaking of being born again? Is this a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Dave

Yes, you are right that Jesus saves us "all at once". The "mechanism" that transforms us from lost to saved is that Jesus saves us (Rom 10:13). It is difficult to choose between spiritual baptism and spiritual birth as the specific means He employs to save us, but I don't think we need to choose between the two. We can see that receiving Jesus into our hearts is what it means to be born of God (Jn 1:12) and we can see that receiving Jesus into our hearts is what makes us baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27).

Spiritual baptism brings in the concepts of death because of sin but new life through resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:3). Spiritual birth brings in the concepts of being a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) and partaking of God's divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). But the end of both is the same -- being joined with the Lord and being one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). Both concepts are valid, but they point to different aspects of the same event.

 

[Dave...]

Yes, you are right that Jesus saves us "all at once". The "mechanism" that transforms us from lost to saved is that Jesus saves us (Rom 10:13). It is difficult to choose between spiritual baptism and spiritual birth as the specific means He employs to save us, but I don't think we need to choose between the two. We can see that receiving Jesus into our hearts is what it means to be born of God (Jn 1:12) and we can see that receiving Jesus into our hearts is what makes us baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27).

Spiritual baptism brings in the concepts of death because of sin but new life through resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:3). Spiritual birth brings in the concepts of being a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) and partaking of God's divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). But the end of both is the same -- being joined with the Lord and being one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). Both concepts are valid, but they point to different aspects of the same event.

NLIChristJesus

Nice post. I think Peter answers that question. There is a placing into that saves (1Peter 3:21). Saves pertains to both the positional and the practical, or the legality of it and being born again. "Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling by Jesus as a result of our faith is what places us in Him (1 Corinthians 12:13). The results of that spiritual union can be seen in (Romans 6:1-11, Colossians 2:9-14) to name a few. Being placed in Him also places us into His death, and we are then raised up with Him, born again, as a result of this placing into Him. Anything speaking of us being "in Christ, or "in Him" is speaking of that spiritual union which results from our being placed into Him. That placing into is summed up with the phrase 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. Or the placing into [Christ Jesus] with the [indwelling of the] Holy Spirit. It's that spiritual union that saves us. When we become one with Jesus, we have all the things needed to save us from that spiritual union, including access to His death and resurrection so that we can also die and be raised with Him, born again, and we also receive the imputed righteousness of God (Romans 10:4), and His atonement applies.

Do you think us dying and being raised with Him is just a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually? Like when Paul says in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ". Does He mean that literally?

Dave

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

NLIChristJesus

Nice post. I think Peter answers that question. There is a placing into that saves (1Peter 3:21). Saves pertains to both the positional and the practical, or the legality of it and being born again. "Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ". Receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling by Jesus as a result of our faith is what places us in Him (1 Corinthians 12:13). The results of that spiritual union can be seen in (Romans 6:1-11, Colossians 2:9-14) to name a few. Being placed in Him also places us into His death, and we are then raised up with Him, born again, as a result of this placing into Him. Anything speaking of us being "in Christ, or "in Him" is speaking of that spiritual union which results from our being placed into Him. That placing into is summed up with the phrase 'baptism with the Holy Spirit'. Or the placing into [Christ Jesus] with the [indwelling of the] Holy Spirit. It's that spiritual union that saves us. When we become one with Jesus, we have all the things needed to save us from that spiritual union, including access to His death and resurrection so that we can also die and be raised with Him, born again, and we also receive the imputed righteousness of God (Romans 10:4), and His atonement applies.

Do you think us dying and being raised with Him is just a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually? Like when Paul says in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ". Does He mean that literally?

Dave

I take it literally, but in a spiritual sense, not a physical sense. Obviously, we are still alive physically. But we are new creatures in Christ. The old things have passed away and and all things have become new...

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2 Co 5:17)​

What specifically does this mean? Two verses help me to see the distinction between the old an new.

First, Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). This verse is packed with wisdom, but one thing it tells us is that the life we received when God gave birth to us by His Spirit is not physical, it is spiritual. As a result, we must see our new lives in Christ as giving us spiritual life.

Second, Paul wrote,

"8 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9–10)​

​

A lot is packed in these verses as well, but one point they make clear is that we are not "in the flesh" like we were before we received Christ. Now, we are in the Spirit. That's where our life is. We live in the Spirit (Ga 5:25). We died and our lives are "hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3). And per Romans 8:8-10, this is due to Christ living in us. And our current status is that we are alive to God spiritually even though the body/flesh is dead because of sin.

The main thing to grasp here is that we have new life in Christ Jesus (Ro 6:4), and that gives us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).

 

[bling]

These are basic NT understandings,.... why don't you understand them?

There is nothing "basic" about "Christians" understanding of baptism, which is all over the board.

 

[timothyu]

As the old saying goes, be in the world but not of it.

 

[bling]

Hey bling

I'm not sure what your point of contention is here. Elaborate on it if you have one. Right now I'm only guessing. Yes, all those verses say water baptism. Do you agree that Jesus did and still does baptize with the Holy Spirit in response to a genuine faith, which "places us" in Him, a spiritual "immersion" that makes us one with Him, the Body, the true Church? You'll notice that anything that I wrote that is between "quotation marks" are used in place of the word baptism, because they mean the same thing. Example....

This takes some explanation.

I see in scripture several different “portions” of the Holy Spirit. John talks about Jesus coming

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Baptism of fire is what?

Luke 12: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

“Baptism of fire” seems to refer to the severe persecution which lots of Christians get to endure, but not every individual Christians will go through a baptism of fire, so will all Christians go through a baptism of the Holy Spirit John is referring to?

Numbers 11: 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone.

There are tons of scripture referring to the Holy Spirit, like in Numbers 11 the Spirit can be portioned out.

John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Jesus could breathe on the disciples and they received some portion of the Spirit, but the indwelling portion which is always with them (yet can be quenched) had not yet come.

Acts 8: 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8 seems to be saying the Samaritans were immersed water baptized, but had not received the outwardly visible miraculous powers of the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them, so water baptism was around separate from Holy Spirit baptism. This is also seen in Acts 19: 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Acts 19:6 is not a continuation of Acts 19:5 with some translators putting an period or a conjunction between them showing separation. Acts 19:6 is no a description of the baptism, but you might want further study on this.



Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 11: 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Peter is water Baptizing and the Spirit seems to be Spiritually baptizing these gentiles first. Notice Peter has to go back to Pentecost to get a similar “Baptism of the Spirit” example so it was not regularly happening.

A book could be written on Christian water baptism and the Holy Spirit baptism, which seem to be two different actions.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Christian water baptism included the Spirit as Paul points out in Acts 19: 1-7. As shown in Acts 8 there was definitely Christian water baptism and only with the apostles laying on of their hands was Holy Spirit baptism given.

My translation: For by one Spirit we were all "placed into" into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

another....

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Not everyone receives a baptism of fire or the Holy Spirit, but all true believers do receive the much more important indwelling Holy Spirit.

Are you seeing obvious miraculous Holy Spirit miracles being performed today that can be scientifically verified (something the Baptism of the Holy Spirit produced in the first century)?

My interpretation: I indeed "immerse" you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will "immerse" you with the Holy Spirit and fire.




Sorry, it sounded to me like you're playing both sides of the fence. So many today are wrongly taught that water baptism is what initiates the Spiritual baptism. If you're being water baptized, you already have faith, and are already spiritually baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit before you hit that water. Agree?

I do not limit God/Spirit’s actions, so when a person obtains the power of the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit is up to Deity and does not have to precede water baptism.

Sorry bling, I disagree. I believe that the water represents God's judgment. That's what the flood was. "In Christ", our Arc, we are protected from that Judgment just like Noah and family were. It's a perfect picture of our Spirit baptism. Not the removal of filth from the flesh is just like saying not water baptism. Just so there was no misunderstanding.

Where the Samaritans in Acts 8, Christian water baptized without being given any miraculous Holy Spirit powers?

Hey bling, the circumcision's comment was just a point of possible interest that I threw in there.

OT water baptism was simply identifying with a persons teachings publicly. That's all it is. A public testimony. That idea carried over to the NT. It pictured outwardly what had already happened inwardly as a result of faith. It identified us with Christ Jesus publicly. Some were baptized only into the name of Jesus because the Holy Spirit and the Father were already understood to be a part of them. The point of contention with the public testimony of these OT believers would have been the name Jesus. Others, found it better to publicly identify with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, since they were never believers in the OT.

OT believers were baptized into the name of the teacher they were under. Remember Paul confronting the Corinthians for arguing about being baptized by Paul or Apollos? It all came from that. The one true baptism is the one BY Jesus with the Holy Spirit. It's a spiritual baptism initiated by faith. Water baptism comes after that fact as a public testimony. Paul even finished by saying that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel". That would be a very, very odd thing to say if water baptism had anything to do with anything beyond a public testimony.

1 Corinthians 1:12-17 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

bling, I've seen this with Catholicism before, they are not really doing what they are doing, and not really saying what they are saying. You're language just sounded very familiar to the kind of language that they so often use, hence the "playing both sides of the fence" comment. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Dave

David, you are misunderstanding.

Paul did not want the people he converted and/or physically baptized by him, to boastfully say “I am a Paul follower.”

Paul did not want to physically baptize anyone for the same reasons Jesus did not baptize others.

Was Jesus physically water baptized as an example for us?

Jesus commands His disciples: “19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. We are to baptize them, but if the Holy Spirit is actually baptizing them, how can we follow that command?

 

[Dave...]

This takes some explanation.

I see in scripture several different “portions” of the Holy Spirit. John talks about Jesus coming

Hey bling

I wouldn't call it portions. In the NT, we are complete "in Him" and lacking nothing (Colossians 2:9-14). We have everything at our disposal. The filling is not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, but for the Holy Spirit to be more in control of our lives as we yield more and more of ourselves to Him. In the OT, they didn't have the indwelling. But they did have the Holy Spirit "upon" them. That was only for specific tasks. One could make the case that the Holy Spirit upon an OT believer is similar to the filling in the NT. But, unlike the OT, the NT has the indwelling. In a nut shell, in the NT, a believer must be indwelt before they are filled. That indwelling is a deeper internal presence for relationship and transformation. While the filling if still for specific tasks. The OT "upon" was just to perform tasks. This was reserved for Prophets and associates in the OT. And The Apostles just before Pentecost (still OT).

Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Baptism of fire is what?

Luke 12: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

The fire in Matthew 3:10-12 is judgment. Everyone is baptized by Jesus. Either with the Holy Spirit unto life, or with fire unto judgment.

“Baptism of fire” seems to refer to the severe persecution which lots of Christians get to endure, but not every individual Christians will go through a baptism of fire, so will all Christians go through a baptism of the Holy Spirit John is referring to?

The baptism by fire in Matthew 3:10-12 isn't about the purification of believers, rather, it's about the baptism of unbelievers with fire, which is God's judgment.

Numbers 11: 17 I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone.

There are tons of scripture referring to the Holy Spirit, like in Numbers 11 the Spirit can be portioned out.

John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

It's not the Holy Spirit being portioned out, rather, it's the task that is portioned out. The Holy Spirit is omniscient. Think of one fire starting another. It others are started, it doesn't diminish the first. These are the only two passages that I know of that suggest this delegation of power to perform a task. Some believe that the birth of the Church began here in John 20:21, instead of Pentecost, but I disagree. Vs. 23 means the Gospel. They are being commissioned to preach the Gospel.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Jesus could breathe on the disciples and they received some portion of the Spirit, but the indwelling portion which is always with them (yet can be quenched) had not yet come.

This applies to my response above also. I'll add that in John 14:17, 7:39, these are sheep. He would not lose one of them. They hear His voice (see In (John 20:21, Luke 24:44-53). Romans 8:29, I believe is speaking of them. True OT believers predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness. John 14:17 can be taken as Jesus is with them, and will be in them (Holy Spirit sometimes called the Spirit of Christ, Romans 8:9). Or, it could mean that the Holy Spirit is "upon" them, and will be in them. I think that both examples can apply equally because of the overlapping which results from the Trinity.

I'm going to post this before this gets too long. I'll answer the rest in a separate post.

 

[Dave...]

Acts 8: 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 8 seems to be saying the Samaritans were immersed water baptized, but had not received the outwardly visible miraculous powers of the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them, so water baptism was around separate from Holy Spirit baptism. This is also seen in Acts 19: 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Acts 19:6 is not a continuation of Acts 19:5 with some translators putting an period or a conjunction between them showing separation. Acts 19:6 is no a description of the baptism, but you might want further study on this.

Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 11: 15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Peter is water Baptizing and the Spirit seems to be Spiritually baptizing these gentiles first. Notice Peter has to go back to Pentecost to get a similar “Baptism of the Spirit” example so it was not regularly happening.

A book could be written on Christian water baptism and the Holy Spirit baptism, which seem to be two different actions.

I'll Quote Macarthur for context. on these passages in Acts. If you can give me your thoughts on this.


" the believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and laid hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the Church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him. The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers--just a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also"(Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the body was one"....

"Why did the Samaritans (and later the Gentiles) have to wait for the apostles before receiving the Spirit? For centuries, the Samaritans and the Jews had been bitter rivals. If the Samaritans had received the Spirit independent of the Jerusalem, that rift would have been perpetuated. There could well have been two separate churches, a Jewish church and a Samaritan church. But God had designed one church, in which "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female," but "all are one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:2.)...

By delaying the Spirit's coming until Peter and John arrived, God preserved the unity of the church. The apostles needed to see for themselves, and give firsthand testimony to the Jerusalem church, that the Spirit came upon the Samaritans. The Samaritans also needed to learn that they were subject to apostolic authority. The Jewish believers and Samaritans were thus linked together in one body....

Today, believers receive the Spirit at salvation (cf.1 Cor. 12:13). There was no need for delay after Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, and Old Testament saints were already included in the church. (Macarthur)


Today...

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Romans 6:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13; cf. Galatians 3:26-27; Ephesians 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

 

[timothyu]

In a nut shell, in the NT, a believer must be indwelt before they are filled.

Allow God's will of servitude to work in them over their own of selfishness.

That indwelling is a deeper internal presence for relationship and transformation.

His will first, thus acting in servitude to Him and each other.

The OT "upon" was just to perform tasks.

The do's and don't rather than the explanation why.

 

[Dave...]

Christian water baptism included the Spirit as Paul points out in Acts 19: 1-7. As shown in Acts 8 there was definitely Christian water baptism and only with the apostles laying on of their hands was Holy Spirit baptism given.

This actually says the opposite. These in Acts 19:1-7 were true OT believers that missed the whole thing. They didn't hear the Gospel. They didn't know that Jesus was the Messiah. Their understanding stopped at the OT with John the Baptist before Jesus arrived in His incarnation. Paul asked one question and understood immediately what the circumstances were. These were already given to the Son by the Father and were predestined to believe the Gospel because they were already declared righteous by promise in their OT faith. Paul shared the Gospel. These Sheep heard and believed, and then they received the Holy Spirit. The sign had to follow this conversion just as they followed the others because they were OT believers receiving the Promise of the Father.

There is a transition that is taking place and these signs are unique to that transition. Unless you're a true OT believer who still has not heard the Gospel and believed (like in Acts 19, or Lydia, Cornelius, etc.), or you're an true OT believer who heard the Gospel and believed before the cross, and are still waiting for the promise of the Father (like at Pentecost), there is no need to wait for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, now, you receive it the moment that you first believe. There is no need for the signs, for that which they pointed to are here and established. The transition is over.

Not everyone receives a baptism of fire or the Holy Spirit, but all true believers do receive the much more important indwelling Holy Spirit.

The indwelling is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Are you seeing obvious miraculous Holy Spirit miracles being performed today that can be scientifically verified (something the Baptism of the Holy Spirit produced in the first century)?

There were reasons for these signs. "Languages" was a sign of judgment of Israel. And the miracle of it was a sign that this was in fact from God, in one way undoing the confusion of languages (supernaturally) that went all the way back to the Tower of Babel, thus paving the way for the Church to now evangelize the world. Only God could undo what He did at Babel. Thus proving that what they were experiencing was from Him. And those miracles showed that the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit was being given. The same miracles happened for the Samaritan, the Gentiles, and the Jews, so there was no misunderstanding that "Salvation had come to the Gentiles also". The Promise of the Father has been given to both Jew and Gentile.

David, you are misunderstanding. Paul did not want the people he converted and/or physically baptized by him, to boastfully say “I am a Paul follower.” Paul did not want to physically baptize anyone for the same reasons Jesus did not baptize others. Was Jesus physically water baptized as an example for us?

I think we're on the same page here.

Jesus commands His disciples: “19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. We are to baptize them, but if the Holy Spirit is actually baptizing them, how can we follow that command?

These are two separate things. Sometimes in Scripture one directly follows the other, but they are still separate. In Scripture, and now, a new believer who just began to trust in Christ Jesus may get water baptized right after he came to faith. But one does not initiate the other. Faith initiates the Spirit baptism, then water baptism is a public testimony symbolically of an inward reality that has already taken place.

Believe and be saved, that's the Gospel message. Water baptism comes after that fact. Some people who cannot see the Spiritual truth, place the powered in the types (water) and not the spiritual truth that the types point to. They say water baptism saves. This is wrong. Then they say, water baptism initiates the Spirit baptism. This is wrong also. Faith initiates the Spirit baptism. We enter into this grace by faith (Romans 5:1-2). There are some who try to make us believe that water baptism saves us and only to protect and advance a hierarchy to keep people subservient to it.

Dave

 

[ARBITER01]

Some oddball personal ideas being promoted in the thread.


When we are born again, we are regenerated, born of The Spirit, hence why the statement from Paul "For by one Spirit were we immersed into one body."

The temple has been cleansed by the blood, The Holy Spirit then must be sought from GOD to receive the filling. The fruits and gifts are a package deal with The Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave...]

The do's and don't rather than the explanation why.

Hey Tim

What questions do you have and what would you like me to explain?

Dave

 

[timothyu]

When we are born again, we are regenerated, born of The Spirit

Right, doing the will of God (servitude) over the self-serving will of the flesh

 

[timothyu]

What questions do you have and what would you like me to explain?

None as God already said to serve Him and each other rather than self. Nutshell.