Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Guojing]

I don’t believe that Paul and James are in tension at all and told you why in my last post. Are you having problems reading my posts?

You could have said yes, when I asked you this question initially Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Instead, you brought in your "acts 21 cannot happen today" which was not part of the question.

Okay, so at least we got your yes to my question.

It was indeed before the temple was destroyed but Acts speaks about the very early church and about Paul’s journeys. The writing of the book if Acts is estimated at between 55 and 65ad but the events happened much earlier. Paul’s journeys to plant churches began much earlier around the mid to late 30’s and continued into the early to the middle 40’s. The fact that Paul was returning from Ephesus probably dates Acts 21 somewhere in the early 40’s not the late 50’s.

When exactly Acts 21:18-25 happened is not important, so long as you accept that it was before AD 70.

 

[Hentenza]

You could have said yes, when I asked you this question initially Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Instead, you brought in your "acts 21 cannot happen today" which was not part of the question.

Okay, so at least we got your yes to my question.

Not a yes to your question. I already explained that which apparently you are having problems understanding.

When exactly Acts 21:18-25 happened is not important, so long as you accept that it was before AD 70.

It was before 70 ad. So how does that help your argument?

 

[Guojing]

Not a yes to your question. I already explained that which apparently you are having problems understanding.

You are saying that James and Paul would be in tension, which to you will be impossible, if one were to understand Acts 21:18-25 literally.

Isn't that saying "Yes, the Acts 21:18-25 words cannot be therefore understood in their literal meaning"?

 

[Hentenza]

You are saying that James and Paul would be in tension, which to you will be impossible, if one were to understand Acts 21:18-25 literally.

Isn't that saying "Yes, the Acts 21:18-25 words cannot be therefore understood in their literal meaning"?

I have explained this in many of my posts. You are obviously having problems understanding what I have posted. I would suggest that you go back and read my posts again.

 

[Guojing]

I have explained this in many of my posts. You are obviously having problems understanding what I have posted. I would suggest that you go back and read my posts again.

You could have just replied with a "Yes, that was my answer to your question."

I would have replied with a thanks, and we can finally move on.

 

[Hentenza]

You could have just replied with a "Yes, that was my answer to your question."

I would have replied with a thanks, and we can finally move on.

My brother I don’t like to play games. I have engaged you argument but you have not responded other than to demand a yes or no answer. I have explained multiple times that the question is not a yes or no answer but you continue to demand that. It’s just not going to happen so yes, let’s just move on.

 

[CLEEB]

Soverigngrace has made a definitive reply. The scriptures he points out, should be the deciding factor.
However scriptural truths do not seem the sway those who are locked into false theories.

That the faithful Christian peoples are the Israelites of God is true, is the fact of there being only One people of God and the rest of the world, including apostate Jews are heathen ungodly trash, to be disposed of. Romans 9:22
Exactly as many Prophesies tell us and only a Christian remnant of Judah, will survive.

Continuing to believe and promote a general Jewish Redemption, coupled with the sci-fi 'rapture to heaven' crazy idea, puts people at risk of severe Judgment. 2 Peter 2:1-22

From what I gather there are two Israel’s, one carnal, one spiritual. Ancient Israel is GODS elect under the law, the church is GODS election according to grace. Romans 11:5 Even though GOD divorced carnal Israel HE has not forgotten HIS promise to Abraham concerning them. The church did not replace carnal Israel because the olive trees roots predated both Israel and the law. The promises to the church are different than to carnal Israel. Just compare the blessings given to carnal Israel in Deuteronomy to those blessings given to the church which has better promises. Hebrews 8:6 Hebrews 7:22 2 Corinthians 3:6 The differences are obvious.

 

[keras]

From what I gather there are two Israel’s, one carnal, one spiritual. Ancient Israel is GODS elect under the law, the church is GODS election according to grace. Romans 11:5 Even though GOD divorced carnal Israel HE has not forgotten HIS promise to Abraham concerning them. The church did not replace carnal Israel because the olive trees roots predated both Israel and the law. The promises to the church are different than to carnal Israel. Just compare the blessings given to carnal Israel in Deuteronomy to those blessings given to the church which has better promises. Hebrews 8:6 Hebrews 7:22 2 Corinthians 3:6 The differences are obvious.

God has no future blessings or promises to the people who claim to be Israel. Jesus informs us who they belong to; Revelation 2:9b
All -Jew and Gentile become the Spiritual descendants of the Patriarchs, by accepting Jesus. Galatians 3:23-29

 

[CLEEB]

God has no future blessings or promises to the people who claim to be Israel. Jesus informs us who they belong to; Revelation 2:9b
All -Jew and Gentile become the Spiritual descendants of the Patriarchs, by accepting Jesus. Galatians 3:23-29

I am aware that in the population of modern day Israel has many are Khazars . The number of true descendents of the ancient nation is unknown to me. Have you considered that in the second resurrection GOD will raise up the nation to flesh again and in that day keep HIS promise to Abraham regarding carnal Israel ? Paul did say that GOD has not written off these people but at some future time they can be grafted back into the olive tree if the do not remain in unbelief. Ezekiel 36 describes this time of restoration. The physical resurrection of carnal Israel may be described in Ezekiel 37 Since it is said that David will be king over them this must be at a future time after David’s resurrection. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of this life from the dead in the second resurrection. When discussing prophecy we should know that prophecy is like being in a dark room with very little light but as the light level increases more can be known. Doctrine is prophecy that has been fulfilled, like the prophecy of the first advent is now doctrine. Until more light shines or as more things are fulfilled the pieces will come together. This is one reason why Jesus told us to watch and we watch for the signs he gave us to come to pass. We also hear the words of the prophets and Apostles about these things. We must be careful to not go beyond what has been written.

 

[Jan001]

I am aware that in the population of modern day Israel has many are Khazars . The number of true descendents of the ancient nation is unknown to me. Have you considered that in the second resurrection GOD will raise up the nation to flesh again and in that day keep HIS promise to Abraham regarding carnal Israel ? Paul did say that GOD has not written off these people but at some future time they can be grafted back into the olive tree if the do not remain in unbelief. Ezekiel 36 describes this time of restoration. The physical resurrection of carnal Israel may be described in Ezekiel 37 Since it is said that David will be king over them this must be at a future time after David’s resurrection. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of this life from the dead in the second resurrection. When discussing prophecy we should know that prophecy is like being in a dark room with very little light but as the light level increases more can be known. Doctrine is prophecy that has been fulfilled, like the prophecy of the first advent is now doctrine. Until more light shines or as more things are fulfilled the pieces will come together. This is one reason why Jesus told us to watch and we watch for the signs he gave us to come to pass. We also hear the words of the prophets and Apostles about these things. We must be careful to not go beyond what has been written.

The judgment of the sheep and goats, (white throne judgment) will begin shortly after the second resurrection. This second resurrection will be at the end of time when Jesus descends to earth with his angels and saints. These saints receive their resurrected bodies before they accompany Jesus to earth. The people still on earth will receive their resurrected bodies as they rise to meet Jesus in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

The unbelieving Jews have already had 2000 years to become Christians. Many of the remnant Jews have become Christians during this time period. More will come into the Church before Jesus' second coming.

David's earthly kingship ended when he died. Jesus Christ is now king and he will be king forever in heaven and on earth. Revelation 1:4-5

 

[9Rock9]

I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that the Church is now Israel, and inherits the blessings and promises of Israel through Christ.

That said, I also acknowledge that there are verses, especially in Romans, that seem to indicate that God isn't finished with ethnic Israel and will graft the back in. Idk exactly, what this will look like? Are they gonna get their land back, or is it just ethnic Jews deciding they are Christians, now?

I reject both dispensationalism (ie, the Church and ethnic Israel are two separate peoples of God, both with their own destiny and plan of salvation) and replacement theology (all the promises to ethnic Jews have ben transferred to the Church, and there is no longer a future for ethnic Israel.)

 

[CLEEB]

I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that the Church is now Israel, and inherits the blessings and promises of Israel through Christ.

That said, I also acknowledge that there are verses, especially in Romans, that seem to indicate that God isn't finished with ethnic Israel and will graft the back in. Idk exactly, what this will look like? Are they gonna get their land back, or is it just ethnic Jews deciding they are Christians, now?

I reject both dispensationalism (ie, the Church and ethnic Israel are two separate peoples of God, both with their own destiny and plan of salvation) and replacement theology (all the promises to ethnic Jews have ben transferred to the Church, and there is no longer a future for ethnic Israel.)

Could it be that the nation of Israel was GODS elect under the law, the old covenant. That the church is the election according to grace, not law. We have two Israel’s , one of law and one of grace but the church is the Israel of GOD. Not all Israel is of Israel. The Gentiles were grafted in with the believing Israelites so that the church is composed of former Jews and Gentiles. The root of the olive tree church are the people before Moses and the law. The people listed in Hebrews 11 are the root of the olive tree. I know that most will not believe that GOD gave Abraham the new covenant that needed to be confirmed later by Jesus. So then Grace exited before the law, the church existed before the nation of Israel. The promises given to Abraham and his seed is the message of the gospel that was preached to Abraham who saw the day of Christ in a vision and was glad. We, the church, are the children of Abraham . So replacement theology is irrelevant because the church has always been GODS true Israel.

 

[Jan001]

Could it be that the nation of Israel was GODS elect under the law, the old covenant. That the church is the election according to grace, not law. We have two Israel’s , one of law and one of grace but the church is the Israel of GOD. Not all Israel is of Israel. The Gentiles were grafted in with the believing Israelites so that the church is composed of former Jews and Gentiles. The root of the olive tree church are the people before Moses and the law. The people listed in Hebrews 11 are the root of the olive tree. I know that most will not believe that GOD gave Abraham the new covenant that needed to be confirmed later by Jesus. So then Grace exited before the law, the church existed before the nation of Israel. The promises given to Abraham and his seed is the message of the gospel that was preached to Abraham who saw the day of Christ in a vision and was glad. We, the church, are the children of Abraham . So replacement theology is irrelevant because the church has always been GODS true Israel.

I think the olive tree is the all the people of God, both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles. I think the root of the tree is Jesus Christ.

 

[CLEEB]

The

I think the olive tree is the all the people of God, both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles. I think the root of the tree is Jesus Christ.

The root of the tree are the saints before Christ, this would be all the people of GOD. THIS is similar to the building Paul described, the foundation comparable to the root and what is built on the foundation to the tree and branches. The entire structure is the church. Jesus was the stone the builders rejected that became the chief cornerstone. These two analogies are not exactly the same but the idea is there were saints before Christ, Christians before Christ. GOD worked in times past by the prophets but now only through Christ. It was in these past times that GOD did call and choose certain people and gave them HIS spirit. The people in Hebrews 11 are those people in times past, the root of the olive tree.

 

[Jan001]

The

The root of the tree are the saints before Christ, this would be all the people of GOD. THIS is similar to the building Paul described, the foundation comparable to the root and what is built on the foundation to the tree and branches. The entire structure is the church. Jesus was the stone the builders rejected that became the chief cornerstone. These two analogies are not exactly the same but the idea is there were saints before Christ, Christians before Christ. GOD worked in times past by the prophets but now only through Christ. It was in these past times that GOD did call and choose certain people and gave them HIS spirit. The people in Hebrews 11 are those people in times past, the root of the olive tree.

Other views:

AI summary:
In the biblical context, particularly in Romans 11, the root of the olive tree is understood to be the Abrahamic covenant and its foundational promises, which are intrinsically linked to God's faithfulness and the patriarch Abraham. The root symbolizes the source of spiritual blessing and holiness, from which the branches—both natural (ethnic Israel) and grafted-in (Gentile believers)—derive their nourishment and spiritual life. Some interpretations identify the root as God Himself, with Christ as the trunk, and the branches representing those who follow God through Christ, emphasizing that the holiness of the root ensures the holiness of the branches. The root is described as holy, and because of this, the branches partake in its sanctity and fruitfulness. This imagery underscores the continuity of God's covenantal plan, where the spiritual blessings flow from the original promises made to Abraham and are ultimately fulfilled in Christ.