Isaiah 43:10 Doesn't Say that YHWH wasn't "Formed"

[Eldeah]

In Isaiah 43:10 we read:

"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,​

“and my servant whom I have chosen,​

so that you may know and believe me​

and understand that I am he.​

Before me no god was formed,​

nor will there be one after me."​

This doesn't exclude that the speaker from being formed. (The hebrew word used in the sentence is Yatsar.)
Which in my opinion is beautiful if the Creator himself is Formed just like humanity was according to Genesis 2:7:

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the​

dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils​

the breath of life, and the man became a living being."​

​

Also in this sense we are way closer to G'd as we dare to believe.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

In Isaiah 43:10 we read:

"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,​

“and my servant whom I have chosen,​

so that you may know and believe me​

and understand that I am he.​

Before me no god was formed,​

nor will there be one after me."​

This doesn't exclude that the speaker from being formed. (The hebrew word used in the sentence is Yatsar.)
Which in my opinion is beautiful if the Creator himself is Formed just like humanity was according to Genesis 2:7:

​

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the​

dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils​

the breath of life, and the man became a living being."​

​

Also in this sense we are way closer to G'd as we dare to believe.

That verse emphasises YHWH is First and Last .... and no (other) God/El came before him, it does not say or imply at all YHWH Himself was formed. Logically it does not make sense to have a Creator who Himself has been formed as that would make the creator a creature. So I can't agree to your line of thinking based on this section in Isaiah.

The phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' is future tense, it doesn't refer to after some kind of formation event for YHWH.

 

[Eldeah]

That verse emphasises YHWH is First and Last .... and no (other) God/El came before him, it does not say or imply at all YHWH Himself was formed. Logically it does not make sense to have a Creator who Himself has been formed as that would make the creator a creature. So I can't agree to your line of thinking based on this section in Isaiah.

The phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' is future tense, it doesn't refer to after some kind of formation event for YHWH.

Thank you for your answer.

"Logically it does not make sense to have a Creator who Himself has been formed as that would make the creator a creature."​

"A Creator" can be formed. Look at humanity... We create stuff all the time.
I am not saying that it "Implies" that YHWH was formed, but it also doesn't say that YHWH wasn't formed.

"The phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' is future tense, it doesn't refer to after some kind of formation event for YHWH."​

Maybe we need to read the verse in its Original language.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

This makes about as much sense as Calvinism's being born again, before a person believes in Jesus. So they can then, believe in Jesus, so they can be born again.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

In Isaiah 43:10 we read:

"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,​

“and my servant whom I have chosen,​

so that you may know and believe me​

and understand that I am he.​

Before me no god was formed,​

nor will there be one after me."​

This doesn't exclude that the speaker from being formed. (The hebrew word used in the sentence is Yatsar.)
Which in my opinion is beautiful if the Creator himself is Formed just like humanity was according to Genesis 2:7:

​

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the​

dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils​

the breath of life, and the man became a living being."​

​

Also in this sense we are way closer to G'd as we dare to believe.

Another good example of how people can see things in a phrase that is not there.
"The water is wet." Therefore, it must mean that everything else is not wet, else why the distinction?
If you are of a mind, you can prove anything you want.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Thank you for your answer.

"Logically it does not make sense to have a Creator who Himself has been formed as that would make the creator a creature."​

"A Creator" can be formed. Look at humanity... We create stuff all the time.
I am not saying that it "Implies" that YHWH was formed, but it also doesn't say that YHWH wasn't formed.

"The phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' is future tense, it doesn't refer to after some kind of formation event for YHWH."​

Maybe we need to read the verse in its Original language.

The whole point of the section is not the (alleged) formation of YHWH, it's outside of YHWH' existence no (other) God/El is formed .. and as YHWH is First and Last, that encompasses everything. In other words: all formation is during/under His reign/control.

Reading the phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' in Hebrew yields the same:

Why are you looking for ways to support your idea YHWH was formed? What is the unspoken motive behind that? AFAIK no theologian in the history of Christianity has ever subscribed to that idea. Just wondering ..

 

[Eldeah]

Why are you looking for ways to support your idea YHWH was formed? What is the unspoken motive behind that? AFAIK no theologian in the history of Christianity has ever subscribed to that idea. Just wondering ..

So in the synagogue where I go to, I stated the same question. The Rabbi said on the Isaiah verse: "In Hebrew you can interpreted the verse to mean that HaShem is the only deity that was "formed" or "crafted,". But it is better to take interpret it in the meaning of unlike idols, the true God was not created."

Why are you looking for ways to support your idea YHWH was formed?

I am not looking for ways to support that YHWH was formed. I think a lot of the first 3 chapters of genesis especially the creation(gen1) and formation(gen2) of humanity reflects what happened to YHWH and his Wisdom themselves.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

So in the synagogue where I go to, I stated the same question. The Rabbi said on the Isaiah verse: "In Hebrew you can interpreted the verse to mean that HaShem is the only deity that was "formed" or "crafted,". But it is better to take interpret it in the meaning of unlike idols, the true God was not created."


I am not looking for ways to support that YHWH was formed. I think a lot of the first 3 chapters of genesis especially the creation(gen1) and formation(gen2) of humanity reflects what happened to YHWH and his Wisdom themselves.

Assuming YHWH was formed (based on very thin assumptions) only creates another logical problem - who formed Him then? I'd stick with the common and easiest view and use my time/energy for more pressing Theological or Sanctification or Life issues.

What synagogue is that btw if I may ask? In what town?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is a great verse to use with Latter day saints because they think they will become a god.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

It is a great verse to use with Latter day saints because they think they will become a god.

Maybe, but although the LDS position may sound heretic initially (and I'm not affiliated with them in any way) - the Christian church has from early on expressed views that are quite close to that. It's very similar to the Theosis concept from the Orthodox Church - in a believer progressing sanctification leads to divinisation. This has been expressed explicitly even by Athanasius - a key theologian in the formulation of the Nicene Creed (325 AD) and later theological developments:

God became man so that man might become god. (Athanasius, On the Incarnation - s. 54)

That sounds unfamiliar and even scary for a founding father of the Trinity doctrine isn't it?

And there are Bible verses backing up that view:

2 Peter 1:3–4
...that by these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

John 17:21–23
Yeshua: 'that they may be one, just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us.'​

Romans 8:29
'For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.'​

​

1 Corinthians 15:28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.​

1 John 3:2
We shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.​

Similar views have been expressed by Irenaeus of Lyon, Clement of Alexandria and Gregory of Nazianzus (all of which we still have literature).

And let's not forget that even Yeshua quotes Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34-36, confirming that Psalm refers to human beings to as 'el (Hebrew) / god'. I.e. the Hebrew or Greek word 'el' / 'theos' could refer to other entities beside the One (YHWH). We never hear sermons on this verse, but Yeshua's citation of the Psalm is unambiguous in its meaning and application.

PS - this post is not to be taken as an endorsement of the LDS at all

 

[martinlb]

There's too much going on here to address every point, but one thing came to mind when you mentioned that we might feel (or be?) closer to God if he was created.

Thay might be true, but if God is all that Christianity believes he is, it would be tragic to feel closer to him by deciding he is less than he really is and is more like us.

 

[truthuprootsevil]

In Isaiah 43:10 we read:

"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,​

“and my servant whom I have chosen,​

so that you may know and believe me​

and understand that I am he.​

Before me no god was formed,​

nor will there be one after me."​

This doesn't exclude that the speaker from being formed. (The hebrew word used in the sentence is Yatsar.)
Which in my opinion is beautiful if the Creator himself is Formed just like humanity was according to Genesis 2:7:

​

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the​

dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils​

the breath of life, and the man became a living being."​

​

Also in this sense we are way closer to G'd as we dare to believe.

Isn't it possible that God our Father formed / spoke himself into physical existence.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God.

In the Old Testament Yahweh and the New Testament Yeshua / Jesus is the Word of God - the spoken Word of God who has physical existence and I'm not speaking of the human form he used when he was born of woman. You see he walked and talked with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah. He said and ate with Abraham. He wrestled with Jacob though translation say Angels but Jacob said he has seen the Lord face to face.

Did not Jesus say our Father is Spirit / Spirit has no physical form. And he and our Father are one.

 

[com7fy8]

Which in my opinion is beautiful if the Creator himself is Formed just like humanity was according to Genesis 2:7:

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the
dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Also in this sense we are way closer to G'd as we dare to believe.

it would be tragic to feel closer to him by deciding he is less than he really is and is more like us.

Jesus is not like us; but He came to this earth in order to go through things we do so now Jesus can feel for us and help us with the grace which had Him do so well in this world. He had a human body so He could experience things that we do > Hebrews 5:2. But Jesus existed before His body was formed.

 

[martinlb]

I don't believe Jesus took the form of humanity due to anything he was lacking, or that it was at all due to something he was lacking or needed.

Additionally the idea that God might have been created flies in the face of what we've been told. He existed before anything did. There was no one or nothing that could have created him because it couldn't have existed.

 

[Job 33:6]

Thank you for your answer.

"Logically it does not make sense to have a Creator who Himself has been formed as that would make the creator a creature."​

"A Creator" can be formed. Look at humanity... We create stuff all the time.
I am not saying that it "Implies" that YHWH was formed, but it also doesn't say that YHWH wasn't formed.

"The phrase ' .. nor will there be one after me' is future tense, it doesn't refer to after some kind of formation event for YHWH."​

Maybe we need to read the verse in its Original language.

Well that's just it. In the ancient near east, there is no ex nihilo creation. That's anachronistic. But there are functional creations and creations that involve material that already exists. Which is exactly what you are noticing. It is not a coincidence, that's just a good reading of the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

So in the synagogue where I go to, I stated the same question. The Rabbi said on the Isaiah verse: "In Hebrew you can interpreted the verse to mean that HaShem is the only deity that was "formed" or "crafted,". But it is better to take interpret it in the meaning of unlike idols, the true God was not created."


I am not looking for ways to support that YHWH was formed. I think a lot of the first 3 chapters of genesis especially the creation(gen1) and formation(gen2) of humanity reflects what happened to YHWH and his Wisdom themselves.

Exactly. And look at Genesis 1. The earth was formless. And God parts the waters, gathers the waters. Separates light from darkness. He's not snapping his finger and making things appear. He is bringing function and order and form, to what was previously tohu. And then as for bohu, the emptiness, God of course fills creation with animals in days 4-6. Thus by the end of the 6 days creation, or heaven and earth, was no longer tohu va bohu.

 

[contratodo]

Revelation 3:14. "...the beginning of the creation of God". Father Son Spirit, Bride.

If He called them god's to whom the word of God came....

This mortal must put on immortality.

The Father is an ever present sprit that just is and always was. The Holy Spirit is part of the Father set apart to interact inside of the hearts of created man. The Son was and is the wise plan from before creation. The Father planned to tackle the concept of death via the Son from since before creation. In other words dying on behalf of His creation was His initial plan before He created. And in that wise plan is first and foremost the Son, and also all who would believe the Son. And therefore, there even we are, we sincere believers, before creation.

 

[Tom8907]

Your concept of God being formed is alien to any of the original language speakers.