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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Will you let the bible ...

Fervent

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I know what Jesus thinks by what he says and what he did as described in scripture there is no implication that I read his mind or that I have special insight into the inner workings of God the son.
Except how Jesus acted and what He said don't convey in their entirety what He thinks/thought. Especially given the variety of approaches Jesus took and sometimes puzzling statements like using a racial slur against a woman who came to ask Him to free her daughter from an evil spirit. So again, are you letting God be God or are you placing a demand on where God can't lead you?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Except how Jesus acted and what He said don't convey in their entirety what He thinks/thought. Especially given the variety of approaches Jesus took and sometimes puzzling statements like using a racial slur against a woman who came to ask Him to free her daughter from an evil spirit. So again, are you letting God be God or are you placing a demand on where God can't lead you?
May I ask what is the purpose of your last post and the few that went before?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Exploration and edification.
I was curious, I started to wonder if you were advocating for hating people or using terrible slurs as in your last post or killing people for instance like the amalekites for some other rather dastardly deeds, that's why I'm wondering what your intention is.
 
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Fervent

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I was curious, I started to wonder if you were advocating for hating people or using terrible slurs as in your last post or killing people for instance like the amalekites for some other rather dastardly deeds, that's why I'm wondering what your intention is.
Ah, no. It's more a question of reconciling God's wrath and God's love. I'm hoping to explore the question with you, because it's an interesting dilemma that I have wrestled with myself in the past. What is at the heart of your resistance? Is it truly out of a desire to love as God loves? Is it fear of judgment coming back on you? Is it fear that contemplating the wrath and judgment of God will make Him hateful to you? Is it genuinely coming from the Holy Spirit, or perhaps you've adopted the prominent values of a culture that's last remaining virtues are tolerance and apathy?
 
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KevinT

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My religion, my faith is more wedded to being kind and showing compassion than it is to law and gospel, to justice and rightness. So I ask of my self "will you let the bible teach you to punish and to judge the 'world' casting some away?" which translates to will I let the bible teach me to be unkind and hard - to treat anyone badly because justice demands it or their faults deserve it?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I'm not following you here. Yes, we will judge angels. But isn't a good judge one who is a good and kind person? It seems that you are saying that because we judge angels, we will have to be unkind and hard.

Also, there is this:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

So I say, don't judge unless we are specifically called on by God to do so -- at His direction and in His time. Continue to be kind and compassionate, and remember that the Judge of the whole Earth will do the right thing.

Gen 18: 25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Best wishes,
KT

UPDATE: I just realized that I responded to a older post from August.
 
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Palmfever

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How do you know that you should be kind?

1 Corinthians 13:4​

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.” – 1 Corinthians 13:4

Galatians 5:22​

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.” – Galatians 5:22

Ephesians 4:32​

“Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” – Ephesians 4:32

Colossians 3:12​

“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.” – Colossians 3:12

Luke 6:35​

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” – Luke 6:35

Titus 3:4-5​

“But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.” – Titus 3:4-5
 
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Mark Quayle

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1 Corinthians 13:4​


Galatians 5:22​


Ephesians 4:32​


Colossians 3:12​


Luke 6:35​


Titus 3:4-5​

It was a rhetorical question. But you have made @Hammster 's point for him.
 
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The Liturgist

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People who say that God will torture sinners in the Lake of Fire fail to understand: sin is its own torture. God is infinitely loving: because his presence would be a torment for those who oppose Him, he will cast them into the outer darkness as a final mercy.

Indeed, in Genesis, the account of our lifespan being reduced to, on average, no more than 120 years was understood by the Early Church Fathers as a blessing from God, so that we would not be forced to live in the mire of sin for century after century.

Many preferred to die to the world immediately, and since martyrdom had ceased after 314 AD and ending one’s own life is forbidden as a form of murder (except when the person is mentally ill), thus many Church Fathers died to the world while remaining alive in the flesh by becoming monastics, starting with St. Anthony the Great and St. Paul the Hermit. In the Orthodox Church, nearly all of our bishops made this decision by becoming monks, with some being ordained as hieromonks (monastic priests) and then promoted to archimandrites (monastic protopresbyters) or the hegumens of monasteries, from which the bishops are chosen. But those who wish to avoid being compelled into serving as bishop can instead take the Great Schema, which is also available to nuns.

But they will then torment themselves, to a large extent, according to St. John Chrysostom, because of the sure knowledge of what they are missing out upon.

What I have said represents the Faith as expressed by the Fathers of the Orthodox Church to the best of my ability - if I have made any error my friends @FenderTL5 @prodromos and others will correct me.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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People who say that God will torture sinners in the Lake of Fire fail to understand: sin is its own torture. God is infinitely loving: because his presence would be a torment for those who oppose Him, he will cast them into the outer darkness as a final mercy.

Indeed, in Genesis, the account of our lifespan being reduced to, on average, no more than 120 years was understood by the Early Church Fathers as a blessing from God, so that we would not be forced to live in the mire of sin for century after century.

Many preferred to die to the world immediately, and since martyrdom had ceased after 314 AD and ending one’s own life is forbidden as a form of murder (except when the person is mentally ill), thus many Church Fathers died to the world while remaining alive in the flesh by becoming monastics, starting with St. Anthony the Great and St. Paul the Hermit. In the Orthodox Church, nearly all of our bishops made this decision by becoming monks, with some being ordained as hieromonks (monastic priests) and then promoted to archimandrites (monastic protopresbyters) or the hegumens of monasteries, from which the bishops are chosen. But those who wish to avoid being compelled into serving as bishop can instead take the Great Schema, which is also available to nuns.

But they will then torment themselves, to a large extent, according to St. John Chrysostom, because of the sure knowledge of what they are missing out upon.

What I have said represents the Faith as expressed by the Fathers of the Orthodox Church to the best of my ability - if I have made any error my friends @FenderTL5 @prodromos and others will correct me.
I am sure there there are martyrs today, especially in nations with hostile religious or political authorities.
 
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bbbbbbb

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FredVB

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I see God is not limited. God created all the universe with it possible for any worlds with life, any other way it would not. God provides for that. God cares for life. God is everywhere, God is not limited in power, and is not limited in caring, God cares for all life. This includes each of us individually. As God cares so there is reason for us to do so.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I see God is not limited. God created all the universe with it possible for any worlds with life, any other way it would not. God provides for that. God cares for life. God is everywhere, God is not limited in power, and is not limited in caring, God cares for all life. This includes each of us individually. As God cares so there is reason for us to do so.
The level and degree of care of God for humans is, however, quite varied. For all of humanity God has provided this earth to sustain life. For most humans, life is far from pleasant, with many dying of disease, famine, and pestilence. God is also perfectly just and holy with requirements to be met in order to please Him. Sadly, all of us have fallen short of His glory and are rightly deserving of an eternity in the lake of fire which burns forever. In His matchless love and grace He sent Jesus Christ to earth to redeem His people. His people were, historically, the Jewish nation and no others among the hundreds of millions of people living on the earth. Following the redemption of Jesus Christ, His people are those who have faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ are not His sheep with the result being that the vast majority of humanity will be eternally lost.
 
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