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The Ancient of Days

Andrewn

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In Orthodox theology, the Ancient of Days is understood as the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity.

In Daniel's prophecy, the Son of God appears as a distinct figure who approaches the Ancient of Days.

However, they are actually meant to be the same person.

How does Orthodox theology clarify this interesting situation?
 

Chesterton

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It's my understanding that the Ancient of Days is God the Father. The Son of God who approaches Him is Christ. The same, but in distinct persons.
 
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Lukaris

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I think it’s a fuzzy issue. I believe as far as icons, it must be the Son of God. As far as scripture ( Daniel 7) & tradition ( for example. attested to in Enoch) the understanding is more towards the Father. The account in Enoch seems to conform to & help explain Daniel 7 so it seems sound.


 
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Andrewn

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Description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:

12 I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. Having turned, I saw seven golden lamp stands. 13 And among the lamp stands was one like a son of man,clothed with a robe reaching down to his feet, and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace. His voice was like the voice of many waters. 16 He had seven stars in his right hand. Out of his mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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In Orthodox theology, the Ancient of Days is understood as the Son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity.

In Daniel's prophecy, the Son of God appears as a distinct figure who approaches the Ancient of Days.

However, they are actually meant to be the same person.

How does Orthodox theology clarify this interesting situation?
Why would the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man as appearing in Daniel be the same person? God the Father is not a human being, so I would never use the word 'person' for Him in this day and age (that would cause confusion given the definition of 'person' in any English dictionary). The ancient of Days and the Son of Man in this passage obviously are two distinct beings/identities though - and that's fully Biblical; one can see the same pattern in Psalm 110:1, and several others ..
 
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ChubbyCherub

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What an interesting question. I never even heard of, 'Ancient of Days,' until they sang it in a church song, recently, and I had to look it up in the bible to see where the phrase came from because family was asking me to whom it referred.

I assumed God but that was based on the lyrics of the song and the scripture I referred to at the time.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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What an interesting question. I never even heard of, 'Ancient of Days,' until they sang it in a church song, recently, and I had to look it up in the bible to see where the phrase came from because family was asking me to whom it referred.

I assumed God but that was based on the lyrics of the song and the scripture I referred to at the time.
Your assumption was correct .. it does refer to God, and not the Son of Man / Messiah.
 
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Andrewn

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it does refer to God, and not the Son of Man / Messiah.
I appreciate how many Church Fathers shared this perspective. However, the OrthodoxWiki article that @Lukaris referenced highlights that several influential Church Fathers actually connected the Ancient of Days with the Son of God.

Since God the Father is invisible, as many biblical passages point out, this interpretation brings a meaningful insight to the discussion. Moreover, the description of Christ in Revelation I, which I quoted, suggested he is the Ancient of Days.

Orthodox traditions interpret the vision of the Ancient of Days as a prophetic image of Christ before his incarnation. God the Father is generally not depicted in Orthodox iconography.

Again, God the Father is invisible. The large number of Church Fathers who identified the Ancient of Days as the Christ cannot be simply ignored. (Please review the article.)

The Ancient of Days is the Son of God and not the Father.
 
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Chesterton

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I appreciate how many Church Fathers shared this perspective. However, the OrthodoxWiki article that @Lukaris referenced highlights that several influential Church Fathers actually connected the Ancient of Days with the Son of God.

Since God the Father is invisible, as many biblical passages point out, this interpretation brings a meaningful insight to the discussion. Moreover, the description of Christ in Revelation I, which I quoted, suggested he is the Ancient of Days.

Orthodox traditions interpret the vision of the Ancient of Days as a prophetic image of Christ before his incarnation. God the Father is generally not depicted in Orthodox iconography.

Again, God the Father is invisible. The large number of Church Fathers who identified the Ancient of Days as the Christ cannot be simply ignored. (Please review the article.)

The Ancient of Days is the Son of God and not the Father.
With all due respect, I think you might want to read each of the quotes from OrthodoxWiki more carefully. For example, the first highlighted one:

"Thou hast borne incomprehensibly the Ancient of Days as a new Child..."

The words "ancient" and "new" are almost opposites. So yes, Christ is pre-existent, but new for us in the Incarnation.

There's a church in my town which has an icon of the Ancient of Days at the top of their iconostasis. It's a human figure of a man with a flowing white beard sitting on a cloud. It's supposed to be God the Father. I asked my priest once "how can they do that?", and he just said "well, a wealthy benefactor of the church donated the iconostasis, and that's what he wanted". It's not right, but I'm not in charge. :)
 
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Andrewn

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@Chesterton

1763991558525.png


Notice that in the proper iconographic depiction of the Ancient of Days, you will see the same nimbus (halo) and inscription (IC XC) as you would on any image of Christ. This is because the two are one and the same, and should be designated as such. The Ancient of Days, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was the sole divine person to appear to anyone at any time in the Old Testament.

"Thou hast borne incomprehensibly the Ancient of Days as a new Child..."
This quotation clearly shows that the Ancient of Days is the new Child, Jesus Christ. Many other quotations show the same.





I
 
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Chesterton

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This quotation clearly shows that the Ancient of Days is the new Child, Jesus Christ. Many other quotations show the same.
Do you and I agree that the eternal God the Father was neither "borne" nor "born"?
 
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Andrewn

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Do you and I agree that the eternal God the Father was neither "borne" nor "born"?
Yes, I agree. And He cannot be shown in any pictures, even though He is often depicted in the Catholic Church.
 
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Chesterton

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Yes, I agree.
So the Ancient of Days was not borne, but borne AS a new child, exactly as the quote says, right? He is not the new child, He is borne AS the new child.
 
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The Liturgist

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Why would the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man as appearing in Daniel be the same person? God the Father is not a human being, so I would never use the word 'person' for Him in this day and age (that would cause confusion given the definition of 'person' in any English dictionary). The ancient of Days and the Son of Man in this passage obviously are two distinct beings/identities though - and that's fully Biblical; one can see the same pattern in Psalm 110:1, and several others ..

The word prosopon used by the Fathers to refer to the three Persons of the Holy Trinity is commonly and correctly translated as person, for we worship One God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The All Holy, Undivided and and Life Giving Trinity consists of three coequal, coeternal and uncreated persons, ever one God, united eternally in a union of perfect love, with the Son, begotten of the Father before all ages, and the Holy Spirit, eternally proceeding from the Father, together sharing in the Divine Essence of the unoriginal Father, with each Prosopon having His own Hypostasis, or underlying reality. In the case of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, in His Incarnation our human nature became hypostatically united to HIs uncreated Divine nature, without change, confusion, separation or division.

Person is the most appropriate word to use even if we consider the ancient use of Prosopon meaning Mask or Face, since if we combine Prosopon with Hypostasis, it adds that element that is implied in the English word Person that the word Prosopon would on its own have in deep antiquity lacked.

It is advisable to stick to the Patristic language and not risk using words such as “beings” or “identities” with regards to the Holy Trinity, as these could have the effect of confusing the relationship between the three Divine Persons.

Since your posting in the Eastern Orthodox subforum causes me to suppose you have an interest in learning about Eastern Orthodox theology, I would suggest you read The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware for its excellent explanation of the doctrine of the Trinity. For more of a deep dive, The Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus and De Incarnatione by St. Athanasius, if you are able to read Patristic writers; if you struggle in this department, a more recent work is Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, memory eternal, translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose, memory eternal; this is the best contemporary work of Orthodox dogmatic theology I have seen.
 
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The Liturgist

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What an interesting question. I never even heard of, 'Ancient of Days,' until they sang it in a church song, recently, and I had to look it up in the bible to see where the phrase came from because family was asking me to whom it referred.

I assumed God but that was based on the lyrics of the song and the scripture I referred to at the time.

In the Orthodox Church we use hymns, some of which are recent, but the average age is around a thousand years, which are extremely theologically detailed. These hymns vary between the predominant Byzantine Rite of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Western Rite, which is based on traditional Anglican and Roman Catholic liturgies and is used by the Antiochian and ROCOR Western Rite Vicarates, for Western Christians who are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church but wish to worship according to the traditional Western practice. However, you will, regardless of rite, never hear a hymn lacking in rich theological meaning. Our hymns are in this respect more doctrinal than even the better works of Charles Wesley.

For example, on Easter, our equivalent of “Christ our Lord Has Risen Today” is the Paschal Troparion:

Christ is risen from the dead,
by death trampling death,
and to those in the tombs
granting life!

This hymn manages to be both shorter than Wesley’s and at the same time contains more dogmatic information.

One hymn you will hear at every Divine Liturgy is exquisite for how it clarifies the relationship between the humanity and divinity of Christ our Lord, God and Savior, called Ho Monogenes, a hymn we share with our Oriental Orthodox brethren (the Syriac / Assyrian, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, Ertirean and Indian / Malankara Orthodox), a rather good article of which can be found on this Coptic website: O Monogenis "Only Begotten Son": The Hymn That Shaped Coptic and Byzantine Worship | St Shenouda Press: Orthodox Store

Finally, in the Eastern Orthodox church, this being Monday in the Seventh Tone* we have some lovely hymns proper to this day, for example, these Troparia sung with the Beatitudes in the Divine Liturgy in those churches still using the traditional Typikon:

Comely and good to taste was the fruit which brought death upon me. But Christ is the Tree of life, and eating thereof I die not, but cry out with the thief: Remember me in Thy kingdom, О Lord!

Like the faithful Canaanite woman I cry out in the pain of my heart: Have mercy on me, О Savior, in that Thou art good; for ever tempest-tossed I have a soul beset by all the wiles of the enemy!

The cherubim and seraphim, the thrones, principalities and powers, the archangels, the armies of angels, the dominions and most wise authorities, ever glorify Thee, О Lord our Benefactor.

Uplifted unto God, the spiritual athletes utterly cast down the wicked uprisings of the enemy; and, revealed as victors, they now live amid joy in the heavens, resplendent in incorrupt glory.


* The Eastern Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox liturgies are unique in that they alone have both a tone of the week, basically a combination of one of eight musical modes analogous to the eight modes of Gregorian chant and specific lyrics for that mode, and also a devotional or liturgical theme for each day of the week; thus there are eight sets of daily hymns. These are in addition to the hymns proper for each calendar day of the year, including the major fixed feasts like Christmas, the Baptism of Christ, the Annunciation, the Transfiguration and so on, and the major feasts and the Great Fast of Lent connected to the date of Pascha (Easter Sunday) which varies from year to year; at some times of the year these three cycles overlap producing very beautiful services. Indeed the Eastern Orthodox liturgy repeats on a 537 year cycle, meaning that if all the propers are followed, you would never hear exactly the same hymns twice, but the hymns of our principal worship service, the Divine Liturgy, are mostly fixed. There are also many different musical settings for the hymns in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, so a Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy will usually sound very different from a Greek Orthodox or Georgian Orthodox liturgy.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, I agree. And He cannot be shown in any pictures, even though He is often depicted in the Catholic Church.

I recently came across an accomplished Orthodox scholar who argued this was not the case, but what you say is the majority opinion at present, to be clear. However, many icons of The Ancient of Days were clearly envisaged as depictions of God the Father, particularly if you see an icon of Him together with a younger icon of Christ and an icon of a dove meant to be the Holy Spirit.

It would appear at least on the surface that God the Father is invisible, except when seen through Christ our True God, who reveals to us in His incarnation the Father. But because of the latter, since we have seen Christ, we have seen the Father. I would also note that if the Father has never been seen, than the Holy Spirit has probably never been heard speaking Himself, but rather only through the Prophets - but conversely the Holy Spirit has appeared visually, at a minimum, as a dove at the Baptism of Christ and as tongues of Fire on Pentecost, but probably also the Burning Bush, the Pillar of Fire and other non-anthropomorphic Theophanies in the Old Testament were the Spirit, whereas those that were anthropomorphological were the Son, His face concealed.

I like the elegant solution to this problem presented by the blessed Andrei Rublev in his famous icon The Hospitality of Abraham, also known as The Trinity, and commonly featured on Pentecost Sunday.*

500px-Angelsatmamre-trinity-rublev-1410.jpg


* Pentecost, in the Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine Rite liturgy combines Whitsunday with Trinity Sunday, although the Monday following it is dedicated specifically to God the Holy Spirit; in this respect our Pentecost is like Theophany in the Armenian liturgy or in all rites before the fourth century separated Christmas from Theophany, prior to that time, the latter feast had celebrated both the Naivity and the Baptism of our Lord, and still does for the Armenians. The date of the Nativity Feast was arrived at by adding nine months to the 14th of Nissan in 33 AD, which was also the Feast of the Annunciation, for it was believed Christ died for us on the same day of His conception, and is thus unrelated to the Roman pagan celebrations of Sol Invictus, contrary to modern popular myth. However in the Western Rite liturgies used by Antioch and ROCOR, Pentecost and Trinity Sunday are separate. In the Byzantine Rite the Sunday following Pentecost is the Feast of All Saints, continuing the theme of new life; in Greece women who are named for flowers however will celebrate their name day on Pentecost.
 
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