Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[sovereigngrace]

The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel nor any other singular nation.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God.... Matthew 6:33.

Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?

 

[Brother Del]

I watched the first part of what is apparently a three part debate yesterday evening. I hope to find the time to watch part two later today.

I only recently discovered Brother Steve Gregg, from what I've seen so far, he is one of the most well grounded, humble, and adept expositors of Gods Holy Word to be found online.

Dr. Mike Brown is a very well known and well thought of expositor in his own right.

Whichever side of this great eschatological divide you may find yourself on, the debate was cordial, and has been well worth watching thus far.

 

[Brother Del]

Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?

I'll take a shot at this one.

Questions 1-5
Both spiritual and ethnic.

Question 6
Spiritual

 

[sovereigngrace]

The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.

Paul gives us some interesting thoughts on it in Romans 11:17-24, speaking to the Roman Christians (who were overwhelmingly Gentiles): “thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them, partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root [Jesus], but the root [Jesus] thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate and unambiguous. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

This text very clearly and indisputably depicts the good olive tree as an Israeli tree. Speaking about Israelites, the texts speaks about “the natural branches” (Romans 11:21 and 24) being “graffed into “their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24). This is unquestionably an Israeli tree. There is no way it is merely an ethnic racial Israeli tree. Why would God graft us into an natural Christ-rejecting Israel? He would not! Such a thought would be ridiculous. We are grafted into believing Israel – true Isreal, the “remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5), “his people which he foreknew” (Romans 11:2), “the children of promise” (Galatians 4:28) or the “children … of the free (Galatians 4:31).”

Jews and Gentiles today are grafted into this spiritual Israeli tree by faith in Christ – who is ultimately true Israel. The New Testament Church today being one with Christ is therefore also true Israel. They have been integrated into believing Israel and have been enjoined to all the elect of the Old Testament era. As a prince they have indeed spiritual power with God and with men, and have prevailed. So, God does not have a separate plan for national Israel outside of the Church. Every Jew and Gentile who trusts in the Lord Jesus are God’s elect or faithful Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'll take a shot at this one.

Questions 1-5
Both spiritual and ethnic.

Question 6
Spiritual

Oh! Really? We are now ethnic Israel? Wow! Never heard that before. Strange belief.

 

[Brother Del]

Oh! Really? We are now ethnic Israel? Wow! Never heard that before. Strange belief.

You asked for simple answers, I did my best.

Its only a strange belief if one has allowed themselves to be tethered to a single side of the issue.

Satan loves this or that questions which keep the children of God, and would be children of God alike, in constant conflict and turmoil. As is evidenced so clearly in these forums.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You asked for simple answers, I did my best.

Its only a strange belief if one has allowed themselves to be tethered to a single side of the issue.

Satan loves this or that questions which keep the children of God, and would be children of God alike, in constant conflict and turmoil. As is evidenced so clearly in these forums.

So,

1. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be partakers of the good olive tree (Romans 11) when it is a believing tree? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
2. How can the "citizenship of Israel" in Ephesians 2 relate to ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel when its citizens are brought in exclusively through the blood of Christ to that privileged place? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
3. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be partakers of "the Israel of God" in Galatians 6:15-16 when Scripture makes clear that this relates exclusively to those who are "in Christ Jesus" who have become “a new creature”? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
4. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel constitute "the circumcision" in Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11 when this is a spiritual title? Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
5. How can ethnic natural Christ-rejecting Israel be seen as "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29 when Jesus told the Christ-rejecting Jews: "Ye are of your father the devil" (John 8:44). Only the international redeemed Church can fulfil this.
6. I agree with this one. We the Church alone reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10.

 

[Guojing]

The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.

I think the part where Paul was describing gentiles in Romans 11:13-24, he was describing gentiles, not in the "but now" but rather in the "age to come".

In the "but now" time period, which is today, we are saved thru faith alone without works by being in the Body of Christ, thus we cannot be cut off after, nor do we need to be part of Israel to be saved.

In the "age to come", gentiles will once again need to be saved by being part of Israel, the olive tree, so it will once again requires faith and works, so not doing works will result in being cut off.

So based on this reasoning, the olive tree can indeed represent true Israel, which is not us the Body of Christ.

 

[keras]

True Israel---the sons of Abraham who followed the Messiah, as manifested by Providence and by history---was again preserved during a time of national apostasy and tribulation. As was the case in former times with Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah, countless apostates were cut off from among the people. But God's elect Israel, the faithful remnant, triumphed and continued on, spreading the good news of the Kingdom of God to the entire world, in and through the Christian Church.

Israel survived in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. True believers in God always was the covenanted Israel, the faithful Christian peoples continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

 

[Guojing]

LOL. Just change the Bible to suit your false teaching. This is another reason to reject Pretrib and Premil.

I was supporting your point that the olive tree refers to true Israel

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So James did not get your memo during Acts 21:18-25?

LOL. Are you incapable of actually addressing my argument? Why won't you do so? NT scripture repeatedly teaches that the old covenant was made obsolete when Jesus died on the cross. You think you can just ignore all those scriptures in favor of your understanding of this one passage? It took time for Jewish believers, including James, to fully understand that they were now under the new covenant rather than the old covenant. Instead of disputing with James over the matter, Paul did what he did because he wanted to win the Jews and those who were putting themselves under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:19-24).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I was supporting your point that the olive tree refers to true Israel

What is your understanding of true Israel?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You claim that the church is Israel. But Paul said that Israel has been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

No, he did not say that. He said they would be blinded IN PART until then. Why did you leave the "in part" out? The remnant of Israelite believers of Paul's day were not blinded. Paul said only "the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:17). But, that blinding of those Israelite unbelievers was not permanent for the rest of their lives because Paul said he hoped to lead some of them to salvation (Romans 11:11-14). You take Romans 11 completely out of context. Paul does not just talk about the future there, but of an ongoing reality of blinded Israelites being provoked to jealousy by saved Gentiles. That process began long ago and will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in when Jesus returns. At that point, all spiritual Israel, consisting of the children of God who belong to Christ (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:26-29) will be saved.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul was not saying that the church - made up of both Gentile and Jewish believers - is Israel.

Yes, he was. You are missing that Paul contrasted two Israels.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

I color coded the text to show each of the two Israels. National Israel is in blue and spiritual Israel is in red.

What Paul indicated here is that there is an Israel besides national Israel that is comprised of "all who are descended from Israel". That other Israel is regarded as Abraham's spiritual offspring (seed) because it is comprised of God's children who are the children of the promise. When he said "it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" he was relating that to the Israel of which "not all who are descended from Israel" are part, so that relates to the other Israel as well.

So, based on what is written in Romans 9:6-8, the question then becomes who are those who are reckoned or called through Isaac and are God's children and the children of the promise who are regarded (counted) as Abraham's offspring (seed)?

We can determine that from other scripture by interpreting scripture with scripture.

As for what Paul meant when he said "it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" we can determine that from this passage.

Galatians 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: "Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

In this passage, Paul figuratively contrasts the old and new covenants and indicates that those who are under the new covenant, represented by the free woman, 'like Isaac, are children of promise". And he applies that to the Jew and Gentile believers in the church that he was writing to.

Who are the children of God that are also the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's spiritual offspring/seed? Paul tells us that here...

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Those who are the children of God and the children of the promise and counted as Abraham's seed are those who are in the church. So, that is who Paul is talking about in Romans 9:6-8 when he talks about the Israel of which not all who are descended from national Israel are part. He was talking about Spiritual Israel in that passage in contrast to National Israel. All believers, like Isaac, are the children of the promise and part of Spiritual Israel because of being children of God through faith and being regarded as Abraham's spiritual seed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul did not say an Israeli tree.

Paul was metaphorically speaking about olive trees (wild vs groomed) to describe persons who embraced God's gospel of salvation in Christ vs persons who rejected God's gospel of salvation in Christ.

What do you think the olive tree that Israelite believers remained in and Gentile believers were grafted into represents? Keep in mind that the basis by which someone is grafted in is faith and the basis for someone being cut off is unbelief. What entity does that remind you of?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I have been doing this 40 years,

Which proves that people can be wrong for at least 40 years.

I understand the difference between the holy spirts voice and Satan's lies.

Doesn't seem like it to me.

Anytime I see people who can not understand God's SIMPLE TIMING PATTERNS, I get leery. Not understanding these deeper truths leads people down wrong paths, and then they teach others these same errors. Yet these types refuse to listen to those of us who present the facts, its always the message board warriors or the Mormon/JW types that go down these roads.

No matter how its presented, even when it overcomes their own take on things, they jut forge ahead, eyes closed, these types can't see because they chose not to see. As per anything secret, its only secret TO YOU GUYS. God writes in ways the average joe CAN NOT SEE on purpose. Jesus stated he spoke in parables so the world hearing they would not hear and seeing would not see. So, why didn't Israel understand the Old Testament Bible that foretold Jesus' coming as a sacrifice? Because they did not WANT TO SEE IT !! Its in there, but in God's own way He forces us to dig these truths out, NOTICE, nowhere does it say on Dec. 25 (just an example we do not know what day he was born on) year 03 at 7 AM that Yeshua will be born. WHY? According to you guys that is how God must write things down, same excuse the Pharisees and Nicodemus gave. The Old Man in the temple saw baby Jesus and he knew but HOW? The wise men knew. The scripture says Yeshua will be born in Bethlehem, it says "My son" will come out of Egypt, how can both be true? Did God confused the Pharisees on purpose? No, that is how He writes, you call it "SECRET" but its not, you just refuse to hear these factoids because God refuses IT spell it out in a manner you think He should. Psstt, He wants you to dig it out, and you are too busy locked into your own understanding, just as the Pharisees were, MOST PEOPLE ARE, so Nicodemus asks how can a man be born again? Which he of course refused to believe.

Blah blah blah. It's quite telling that you just ramble on and on without ever making a meaningful point that applies to anyone here.

Its not even hard, to those who will open their minds and investigate all of the pertinent facts. Revelation is hard, the Simple Pre Trib. Rapture is not, that is easy stuff, their can be no other timing, period, nothing else even remotely fits.

LOL. Yeah, Jesus saying that the elect will be gathered AFTER the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) doesn't even remotely fit. Okay then.... LOL.

That is NOT CORRECT, the After THIS is speaking about the Church Age. The THINGS WHICH YOU HAVE SEEN is talking about the Supernatural Glory of Jesus' Eternal Godhead and Splendor. The THINGS WHCH ARE can only mean the Church Age. The Hereafter can only mean after he Church Age. You denying these facts will not change these facts brother. We know when the transition happens because we see it happen in real time in Rev. 4:1

Total nonsense. The church is referenced several times after that.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who else but the church are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who else but the church are "the saints"?

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:


Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Who else but those in the church are "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."? Who else are "in the Lord" except for the church?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

keras, where in the bible are you getting that phrase "Israelites of God" ?

The term Israelites itself does not appear in the kjv bible.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=Isarelites

The phrase "Israel of God" does appear in the kjv in Galatians 6:16.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=israel+of+god&bsec=&order=0&s=1

Yes, the "Israel of God" is referenced there, so it seems reasonable to call those who are part of the Israel of God "Israelites of God". Why question that?

I think the Jews who believe in Jesus, Paul is calling the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16.

Do you include Jews who don't believe in Jesus in the Israel of God? What do you think are the requirements for being part of the Israel of God?

 

[Guojing]

What is your understanding of true Israel?

It comprise of descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believed that Christ is their promised Messiah, aka the gospel of the kingdom (Romans 9:6-13)

 

[Guojing]

It took time for Jewish believers, including James, to fully understand that they were now under the new covenant rather than the old covenant.

James was the head of true Israel, the remnant that believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

The resurrected Christ never told any of them that the Law is now optional for them. Instead he continue to tell them "to obey everything he commanded (Matthew 28:20), which includes obedience to the Law.

It is rather arrogant of you to claim that they were incorrect for more than 20 years after the cross.

 

[Douggg]

Do you include Jews who don't believe in Jesus in the Israel of God? What do you think are the requirements for being part of the Israel of God?

No, to the first question.

Regarding the second question, the requirements are (1) being a Jew (2) believing in Jesus.

Yes, the "Israel of God" is referenced there, so it seems reasonable to call those who are part of the Israel of God "Israelites of God". Why question that?

Israelites of God is a non-biblical term that can be misleading. Gentile believers in Jesus are not Israelites of God by virtue of believing in Jesus.

Nor are Gentile believers in Jesus - "Spiritual Jews" - by virtue of believing in Jesus.