Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

[Fisherking]

This is all man-made extra-biblical theories. Zero substance. Like Van Imp you do not quote Scripture. You just reference it because the Book forbids your error.

1. Where is "the Church age" mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3?

Rev.2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev. 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;

We see 7 Churches named because 7 in God lingo means Divine Completion. Don't tell me you profess to understand prophesy but do not understand what numbers represent in God lingo !! The reason John is told in Rev. 1 this is Jesus was dividing these time frames of prophesy up.

Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen(Jesus in all his Glory), and the things which are(Church Age), and the things which shall be hereafter(After the Church Age in Rev. 2 & 3 we see the Pre Trib. Rapture in Rev. 4:1 everything else is HEREAFTER the Church Age)

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me(Last Trump HINT, its the Rapture and the Last Trump of the Feast of Trumps ENDS the Harvest Season/Church Age); which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (After the Church Age)

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne

It astounds me when people can not grasp the obvious, all because they have a pre set idea planted from youth, or they learned it from other men, and thus God's truths get blocked out.

1. Where is your "rapture" in Revelation 4?

See above, in Rev. 4:1

1. Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation?

Jesus has been to earth 1000's of times, he was with Abraham and Daniel, he REVISTED in John 20 after first telling Mary to TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended to the Father [to offer the sacrifice which HER TOUCHING would have defiled[. Then a few verses later he tells Doubting Thomas to touch hi wounds ad brought back a gift for his bride, the Holy Spirit.

The 2nd coming is a misnomer by you guys. Its really talking about Two ADVENTS, Jesus comes as the meekly Lamb led to slaughter and then as the Lion King of Judah, to rule over mankind for 1000 years. Anyone that thinks Jesus only visits this earth twice just doesn't read very well.

 

[Guojing]

In your one-liners: where is your response?

To be honest, you seem out of your depth here.

So why claim to have answered a question, when you cannot even point the answer out?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul said the Body of Christ is dead to circumcision.

But James reminded us readers in Acts 21:18-25 that the Israel of God is still to undergo circumcision and obey the Law of Moses zealously.

Nonsense! That contradicts the entire New Testament. After Christ died and the veil of the temple was torn in two, the old covenant law of Moses became obsolete! Read Hebrews 8-10. No one was obligated to be under the law after that.

Thus, my simple conclusion was that Galatians 6:16, Paul cannot be calling us the Israel of God.

Your conclusion is based on a complete misunderstanding of the entire Bible. You are drawing conclusions from isolated verses that contradict many other verses. You need to ask God for wisdom so that you stop doing that (James 1:5-7).

 

[Guojing]

Nonsense! That contradicts the entire New Testament. After Christ died and the veil was torn in two, the old covenant law of Moses became obsolete! Read Hebrews 8-10. No one was obligated to be under the law after that.

So James did not get your memo during Acts 21:18-25?

 

[keras]

Thus, my simple conclusion was that Galatians 6:16, Paul cannot be calling us the Israel of God.

Then who are the Israelites of God?

Don't tout the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, because those Jesus rejecting people, who break the Commandments and rely on their own strength, - belong to Satan. Rev 2:9b
WE Christian peoples are the Overcomers for God, literally His true Israelite people. Any other idea is just believed in order to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory
We all know how Jesus offered Salvation to all who would accept it. The idea that anyone who rejects Jesus, is still in Gods favour, is an anathema and a contradiction to Bible truths.

The fate of Judah, is well Prophesied in many scriptures. Only a remnant will survive; to join with their Christian brethren.

 

[Douggg]

Then who are the Israelites of God?

keras, where in the bible are you getting that phrase "Israelites of God" ?

The term Israelites itself does not appear in the kjv bible.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=Isarelites

The phrase "Israel of God" does appear in the kjv in Galatians 6:16.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=israel+of+god&bsec=&order=0&s=1

I think the Jews who believe in Jesus, Paul is calling the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Rev.2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev. 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;

We see 7 Churches named because 7 in God lingo means Divine Completion. Don't tell me you profess to understand prophesy but do not understand what numbers represent in God lingo !! The reason John is told in Rev. 1 this is Jesus was dividing these time frames of prophesy up.

Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen(Jesus in all his Glory), and the things which are(Church Age), and the things which shall be hereafter(After the Church Age in Rev. 2 & 3 we see the Pre Trib. Rapture in Rev. 4:1 everything else is HEREAFTER the Church Age)

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me(Last Trump HINT, its the Rapture and the Last Trump of the Feast of Trumps ENDS the Harvest Season/Church Age); which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (After the Church Age)

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne

It astounds me when people can not grasp the obvious, all because they have a pre set idea planted from youth, or they learned it from other men, and thus God's truths get blocked out.

See above, in Rev. 4:1

Jesus has been to earth 1000's of times, he was with Abraham and Daniel, he REVISTED in John 20 after first telling Mary to TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended to the Father [to offer the sacrifice which HER TOUCHING would have defiled[. Then a few verses later he tells Doubting Thomas to touch hi wounds ad brought back a gift for his bride, the Holy Spirit.

The 2nd coming is a misnomer by you guys. Its really talking about Two ADVENTS, Jesus comes as the meekly Lamb led to slaughter and then as the Lion King of Judah, to rule over mankind for 1000 years. Anyone that thinks Jesus only visits this earth twice just doesn't read very well.

Many on here were deceived by Pretrib growing up, but our eyes have been opened to its folly. You cannot even prove one single claim. You add unto the scriptural text. This is all man-made theories. There is no substance to it. That is because you do not have Scripture to support Pretrib. There is no proof-text in Scripture - that is why you twist a text like Revelation 4.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

 

[sovereigngrace]

So James did not get your memo during Acts 21:18-25?

You do not get it do you. Paul saw the cross as the end of the old covenant. You do not. Sad!

When Jesus cried it is finished, the old covenant sacrifice system was finished. This was reinforced by the ripping of the temple curtain in two. Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says, “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

There it is! Clear and irrefutable! This is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices forever!!! "Forever" actually means "forever."

Romans 6:10 says, “he died unto sin once.”

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Christ put an end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

 

[Guojing]

You do not get it do you. Paul saw the cross as the end of the old covenant. You do not. Sad!

When Jesus cried it is finished, the old covenant sacrifice system was finished. This was reinforced by the ripping of the temple curtain in two. Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

I am asking you why James did not get it during Acts 21:18-25.

 

[Tom8907]

The church is Israel and those in Christ (God the Son) are His people.

Nothing to do with the-nation-that-calls-itself-Israel.

 

[keras]

I think the Jews who believe in Jesus, Paul is calling the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16.

Typical of how you and others insist on a Jewish redemption. Something never said to happen in scripture.
Only those Jews; and everyone else, who accept Jesus now, will be saved. In Jerusalem, by hiding underground; Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:18, and around the world.

Paul is identifying ALL those who follow the Way of Christ, are included as the Israel of God.
Those people who do not follow the Way of Christ, are rejected as the Israelites of God, even if they could prove descent from Judah. Which none of the Jews can.

 

[Douggg]

Typical of how you and others insist on a Jewish redemption. Something never said to happen in scripture.

You claim that the church is Israel. But Paul said that Israel has been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

keras, the church is not blinded to the gospel of salvation in Christ. So your identification of Israel is incorrect.

The bible does speak about the Jews turning to Jesus. Romans 11:25 indicates that the Jews (Israel) has been blinded in regards to the gospel of salvation in Christ. But once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, that the Jews will be saved, i.e. turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in Romans 11:26.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am asking you why James did not get it during Acts 21:18-25.

I answered. You ignored. If you refuse to address my detailed post i am going to take that as an admission that you have no rebuttal.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You claim that the church is Israel. But Paul said that Israel has been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

keras, the church is not blinded to the gospel of salvation in Christ. So your identification of Israel is incorrect.

The bible does speak about the Jews turning to Jesus. Romans 11:25 indicates that the Jews (Israel) has been blinded in regards to the gospel of salvation in Christ. But once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, that the Jews will be saved, i.e. turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in Romans 11:26.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Not true. Not all Israel was blinded. Only "part" of Israel was. If you study the whole thrust of Romans 9-11 you will see that Paul is comparing the chosen elect (the election) within Israel to those who are "blinded." In Romans 11:1-5, Paul identifies “his people which he foreknew” as a spiritual “remnant according to the election of grace.” This is in complete contrast to the blinded natural majority of Israelis who reject Christ. There is no way they can be deemed God’s chosen people, God’s elect or the people of God, regardless of how loud or often Dispensationalists claim such.

We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one spiritual, elect and believing, the other natural, ethnic and containing both believers and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belonged to that remnant within ethnic Israel that were true Israelis in God’s eyes. Through the cross, and since the cross, only those Jews and Gentiles who embraced Christ were enjoined to that remnant that are considered His chosen people. These have been joined together on an equal basis in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

Many on here were deceived by Pretrib growing up, but our eyes have been opened to its folly. You cannot even prove one single claim. You add unto the scriptural text. This is all man-made theories. There is no substance to it. That is because you do not have Scripture to support Pretrib. There is no proof-text in Scripture - that is why you twist a text like Revelation 4.

In all of Scripture, there is not one verse which specifically locates the rapture before the tribulation.
A pretribulation rapture is the notion of man, based solely in eisegesis, and never even heard of in the church until about 200 years ago.

However, there is teaching which locates the rapture with the final coming of Jesus in judgment (2 Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8),
and there is teaching that there will be no appearance of Jesus until that coming in judgment (Ac 3:21, Heb 9:28).

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

 

[Fisherking]

Oh, that's rich. . .

I only get short quips from people who have been defeated on debating a point. That is rich incoming info

 

[Clare73]

I only get short quips from people who have been defeated on debating a point. That is rich incoming info

That's rich. . .

 

[Palmfever]

Differences between Jews and Israelites

It is common to confuse Jews with Israelites today as almost all Jews live in Israel. And although all Jews are Israelites, not all Israelites are Jews. To explain the reason for this, it is

www.differencebetween.net

What is the Difference Between Israelites and Jews - Pediaa.Com

The main difference between Israelites and Jews is that "Israelites" refers to the ancient people who descended from Jacob (Israel) and lived in the biblical Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, whereas "Jews" refers to the descendants of the Israelites who follow Judaism.

pediaa.com

 

[keras]

You claim that the church is Israel. But Paul said that Israel has been blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

keras, the church is not blinded to the gospel of salvation in Christ. So your identification of Israel is incorrect.

I go by the Words of Jesus:
...Those who were born into the Kingdom, will be thrown out. Matthew 8:12
The Kingdom of God is taken away from you.... Matthew 21:43
As for those who falsely claim to be Jews; [Israelites]......they will know you [Christians] are My beloved people...... Revelation 3:9
Bring those who refused to have Me as their King and slaughter them before Me. Luke 19:27

There is no general redemption of the House of Judah. That teaching is wrong and unbiblical, just taught as part of the false 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory.
We Christian peoples are the true Israelites of God, the faithful Spiritual descendants of Abraham. Isaiah 51:1-2

 

[Douggg]

Not true. Not all Israel was blinded. Only "part" of Israel was. If you study the whole thrust of Romans 9-11 you will see that Paul is comparing the chosen elect (the election) within Israel to those who are "blinded." In Romans 11:1-5, Paul identifies “his people which he foreknew” as a spiritual “remnant according to the election of grace.” This is in complete contrast to the blinded natural majority of Israelis who reject Christ. There is no way they can be deemed God’s chosen people, God’s elect or the people of God, regardless of how loud or often Dispensationalists claim such.

We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one spiritual, elect and believing, the other natural, ethnic and containing both believers and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belonged to that remnant within ethnic Israel that were true Israelis in God’s eyes. Through the cross, and since the cross, only those Jews and Gentiles who embraced Christ were enjoined to that remnant that are considered His chosen people. These have been joined together on an equal basis in Christ.

Paul was not saying that the church - made up of both Gentile and Jewish believers - is Israel.