Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

[narnia59]

Well said - not one of those points has to do with purgatory -

Actually they do since the entire point of Purgatory is to complete our sanctification so we are indeed perfected and ready for heaven.

If Scripture is clear that our sanctifcation is something that is an ongoing process, and nothing in Scripture indicates that we are all completely sanctified at the time of our death, the only conclusion is that there is something that has to happen to us after death that completes that process.

You also have not answered my question regarding 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that tells us that at the time of our judgment, when all our deeds are disclosed and those not worthy are burned off, and that we will be saved, but only as through fire, what do you think that means?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Actually they do since the entire point of Purgatory is to complete our sanctification so we are indeed perfected and ready for heaven.

The teaching of purgatory - as already linked and shown - did not exist for 1,200 years of Christianity.

You also have not answered my question regarding 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that tells us that at the time of our judgment, when all our deeds are disclosed and those not worthy are burned off, and that we will be saved, but only as through fire, what do you think that means?

It means EXACTLY what it says - our works - the things we do, what we say - are judged. We are saved.

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

​

What does that mean? Does it mean after we leaving this life we are judged and then might have to spend sometime in jail (purgatory) until we get our act right? or does it mean exactly what it says?

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.​

​

One time - not after a jail sentence - one time.

 

[narnia59]

The teaching of purgatory - as already linked and shown - did not exist for 1,200 years of Christianity.

I see above where you said based on a cursory AI search – “ The fully developed concept of purgatory, involving post-mortem fire and satisfaction for venial sins, emerged centuries later (formalized at the Second Council of Lyon in 1274 and the Council of Trent in the 16th century).”

That type of reasoning and scholarship is most problematic. It’s the same methodology used by the Jehovah Witnesses when they say that it is a “fact” that the dogma of the Trinity is based on a late 4th century “invention”. Why? Because the word “Trinity” does not appear in any Christian writings until the 3rd century and because the Catholic Church did not formalize the dogma of the Trinity until the 4th century.

No different is your reasoning here. It fails to recognize three key things:

• Just because we do not have a preserved writing that directly speaks to a teaching prior to a certain point in time, that is not evidence that the belief was not in place prior to that.
• Just because specific language is not used it does not mean that a belief was not conceptually reflected earlier than that.
• The Church quite often does not formalize a dogma until there is a heresy that has gained ground and needs to be addressed. The Arian heresy is what required the dogma of the Trinity to be formalized and made more precise and robust in the 4th century.

The other problem is that a cursory AI search is not true scholarship at all. For reference, if you do not have a copy of “An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine” by John Newman, it would be worth your time to acquire one. Regarding the doctrine of Purgatory, he begins with Clement of Alexandria (150-215AD) and talks about sins being purged by discipline (much likes Hebrews 12) and that “the necessity of this purifying discipline is such, that if it does not take place in this life, it must after death, and is then to be effected by fire, not by a destructive, but a discriminating fire, pervading the soul which passes through it.” Hmm, sounds like Purgatory to me.

For reference, the first complete and accurate listing of the books which comprise the New Testament is from Athanasius in 367, 150 years later. So to say that the conceptual understanding of a purifying fire after death is not a part of the belief of the early church is simply not true.

Newman continues with his citations, St. Cyprian (210-258), The Acts of the Martyrs, the Eucharistic prayer of the faithful in the 4th century, and St. Cyril (376-444). While he doesn’t reference St. Augustine (354-430) and St. John Chrysostom (347-407) both speak of our prayers being able to help the dead. To what avail would that be if they were believed to all be in heaven?

So in the interest of honest scholarship, it simply isn’t accurate to profess that the teaching of Purgatory didn’t exist for the first 1200 years of the Church. No more accurate than the Jehovah Witness claim that the teaching of the Trinity didn’t exist for the first 400 years of the Church. Same flawed scholarship leading to flawed conclusions in both examples.

 

[narnia59]

It means EXACTLY what it says - our works - the things we do, what we say - are judged. We are saved.

We are indeed saved but only as through fire
What does being saved only as through fire mean to you?

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

​

What does that mean? Does it mean after we leaving this life we are judged and then might have to spend sometime in jail (purgatory) until we get our act right? or does it mean exactly what it says?

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.​

​

One time - not after a jail sentence - one time.

It means we are saved. But being saved does not mean that we will not experience God’s discipline. Isn’t the author of Hebrews writing to “saved” people when he says that when God disciplines us he is treating us like sons? Being saved does not mean we will not be disciplined by God to perfect us in holiness. Being completely sanctified is not optional.

If you leave this life and you are not perfected in holiness, not sure I would call it ‘jail’. But if you have not yet become “righteous made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23), God still has some work to do with you.

So say for example, Mr. X has held a grudge against his brother for many years due to a perceived wrong. Mr. X dies still holding that grudge. He hates his brother.

Do you really think Christ is going to say “Mr. X, you’re dead now so regardless of what sin you’re still attached to, heaven is open to you? Keep your grudge, hold on to your hatred because all the saved are welcome no matter what sin you bring with you?”

Or is Christ going to say we still have a little work to do don’t we? About that grudge….”

 

[Always in His Presence]

Just because we do not have a preserved writing that directly speaks to a teaching prior to a certain point in time, that is not evidence that the belief was not in place prior to that.

Which is the basis for every cult teaching in existence - not calling anyone a cult.

The basis for a teaching to exists prior to a certain point in time - is the teaching being present.

We are indeed saved but only as through fire
What does being saved only as through fire mean to you?

Why have you not answered my question regarding Romans 10 - for a meaningful debate - BOTH sides have to engage in question and answer - please be so kind in answering my query please

If you leave this life and you are not perfected in holiness, not sure I would call it ‘jail’. But if you have not yet become “righteous made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23), God still has some work to do with you.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

So say for example, Mr. X has held a grudge against his brother for many years due to a perceived wrong. Mr. X dies still holding that grudge. He hates his brother.

Do you really think Christ is going to say “Mr. X, you’re dead now so regardless of what sin you’re still attached to, heaven is open to you? Keep your grudge, hold on to your hatred because all the saved are welcome no matter what sin you bring with you?”

Or is Christ going to say we still have a little work to do don’t we? About that grudge….”

I don't deal with hypotheticals -

The concept of purgatory, at best, is theoretical and I'll explain why.

There is a term in theology - exegesis - it means

Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical explanation of a text or portion of Scripture
​

When a teaching or concept is not plainly shown it does not rise to an exegetical level. It requires suppositions, reasoning and possibilities. All of which is demonstrated in your last few posts. (Forgive me, I am not picking on you)

Go back to Hebrews -

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.​

​

Why is the concept of purgatory not mentioned? It is a simply stated sentence. Men die once and after that judgement - period - end of sentence, but not of thought -

So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

 

[narnia59]

Which is the basis for every cult teaching in existence - not calling anyone a cult.

In fact, not true. Many cult teachings have a basis in Holy Scripture. A perversion of Scripture to be sure, but derived from Scripture nonetheless. And the perversion of something does not mean that it’s not good or true. Often quite the opposite.

So I stand by the statement -- Just because we do not have a preserved writing that directly speaks to a teaching prior to a certain point in time, that is not evidence that the belief was not in place prior to that.

The basis for a teaching to exists prior to a certain point in time - is the teaching being present.

And I demonstrated that it quite clearly was present in the early church.

You evidently like AI. What is the answer to “are there early christian references to purgatory”? Its answer:

While the formal doctrine of purgatory wasn't developed until the Middle Ages, early Christians had references to a process of post-mortem purification. Texts from the New Testament like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 hint at cleansing through fire, and early Church Fathers like Tertullian, Ambrose, and Augustine spoke of purification after death and the benefit of prayers for the departed.

Early Christian beliefs and practices
• Purification after death: The foundational idea that further purification is needed for some souls after death before they can enter heaven was present in the early Church.

 

[narnia59]

Why have you not answered my question regarding Romans 10 - for a meaningful debate - BOTH sides have to engage in question and answer - please be so kind in answering my query please

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Go back to Hebrews -

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.​

​

Why is the concept of purgatory not mentioned? It is a simply stated sentence. Men die once and after that judgement - period - end of sentence, but not of thought -

So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

I did answer your question. I said “It means we are saved.”

Our disconnect seems to be exactly what that means. You seem to think it means once you die and are judged there is an immediate entry into heaven regardless of whether or not you still have attachment to any sin. I do not.

It’s also important to remember that Scripture speaks of salvation as being a past event, a present ongoing process and a future event.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 we seem to both agree this is in reference to our judgment. A person has died and there is judgment, as your Hebrews 9:26 citation references. Okay. We agree on that too.

You will notice however, Paul is still referring to our salvation in the Corinthians text as a future event that occurs after the person has ‘suffered loss’ and gone through fire.

If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)

So, I’ve answered your question, so now would you please answer mine?

We indeed WILL BE saved but only as through fire
What does being saved only as through fire mean to you?

I don't deal with hypotheticals -

Then answer a question – at the moment of every believer’s death do you believe they are perfect, completely sanctified with no attachment to sin?

The concept of purgatory, at best, is theoretical and I'll explain why.

There is a term in theology - exegesis - it means

Exposition; explanation; especially, a critical explanation of a text or portion of Scripture
​

When a teaching or concept is not plainly shown it does not rise to an exegetical level. It requires suppositions, reasoning and possibilities. All of which is demonstrated in your last few posts. (Forgive me, I am not picking on you)

I am familiar with the terms.

I would contend there are several concepts here I’ve shown that are quite plainly in Scripture. The first is that just become someone is saved, it does not mean they are immediately sanctified. Therefore, God will discipline us as sons in order to bring us to holiness (Hebrews 12:4-14)
We will not see God until we have reached that level of perfected holiness (Hebrews 12:4, 23)

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that all believers will have reached that state of perfection by the time they die.

There is nothing in Scripture that says that once we’re judged our entry into heaven will immediately follow that judgement regardless of the state Christ finds our soul. In fact, it says quite the opposite. Anything he finds that needs to be burned off before we enter heaven, he will. That is why even when referring to our judgment Paul writes that if any of our work is burned up, we “will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15). “Will be saved.” In the future. When Christ is finished removing all that does not belong in heaven.

 

[chevyontheriver]

From a cursory AI search:

Your AI may have missed a few things, being AI and all. It does not seem to be a well taught AI. YMMV.

No, Tertullian (c. 155–c. 240 AD) did not mention purgatory in the sense of the later Catholic doctrine—a temporary state of purification after death for souls destined for heaven. The fully developed concept of purgatory, involving post-mortem fire and satisfaction for venial sins, emerged centuries later (formalized at the Second Council of Lyon in 1274 and the Council of Trent in the 16th century).​

Who is pretending that Tertullian has to have had a 'fully developed' theology of purgatory?

Tertullian's significance was that he was the first Christian apologist to write in Latin. That he brought older Greek terms and thoughts and intuitions into the Latin language. Most of his writings, all of the earlier ones for sure, were orthodox, though he later drifted into Montanism.

• In De Anima (On the Soul), Tertullian describes the soul's fate immediately after death: the righteous go to a place of comfort (paradise or Abraham's bosom), while the wicked go to Hades for torment until the final judgment. There is no third category of purifying fire for imperfect believers.

Tertullian didn't have a 'fully developed' theology of the afterlife either. You are imposing your modern views of the afterlife on Tertullian, who thought more of 'sheol and 'gehenna' than of 'heaven' and 'hell'. Yes, he would have considered the resurrection, but that it would bring about something permanent on the last day. His understanding of 'sheol' was more a temporary place or status.

• He mentions fire in eschatological contexts (e.g., the final judgment or hell), but never as a post-mortem purgation for the saved.

The word "purgatorium" as a noun for a place of cleansing first appears in the 12th century (e.g., in writings influenced by Augustine and Gregory the Great).

The word 'Trinity' didn't show up for centuries either. Let's get rid of it as a false teaching? Some think that's a great idea.

In summary, while Tertullian supported prayers for the dead and an intermediate waiting period, he provided no substantive basis for the doctrine of purgatory. Claims otherwise typically involve anachronistic readings of his texts. For primary sources, see Tertullian's works in the Ante-Nicene Fathers collection (vol. 3–4).

Tertullian did not mention the word 'purgatory', of course, but he nonetheless supported prayers for the dead. AND he supplied the Latin speaking theology which followed the language to understand why prayers for the dead mattered. He distinguished between the guilt of a sin (culpa) and the reparation necessary as a result of a sin independent of the guilt of a sin (poena). This is tied up with Latin legal terminology, and is developed more by Augustine, particularly in regard to original sin being something we suffer the effects of even after being cleansed of all guilt of original sin in baptism. Thus no guilt remains but a poena is due, a concupiescence that endures. David confessed his guilt to Nathan, and was forgiven by God, but that did not stop his son from dying. Here's where your average Protestant says "Jesus paid it all!" Augustine, and Tertullian before him, and the Greek theologians too, and the whole Catholic and Orthodox enterprise would have to differ. Jesus paid for the guilt of our sins, but reparations are due to fix the damage we have done. We do that in penances and good works and alms, in reparation for ourselves and for others.

One way we do that is in praying for the dead, not that the unsaved would become saved, but that the partially sanctified would become wholly sanctified. This was a big thing for Tertullian, who for example expected a widow to offer prayers for her deceased husband on the anniversaries of his death. Why would Tertullian think that? What rationale would that have for a 21st century Protestant who totally rejects purgatory and says it was only invented in the middle ages? Why do the Orthodox and the Catholics follow the Jews in praying for their dead, as we all still do, if purgatory were a medieval invention?

Purgatory is but an explanation for why we pray for our dead. What's your explanation of why we Catholics and Orthodox and Jews pray for our dead?

By the way, good advice to actually read Tertullian. 'On the Resurrection of the Body', 'A Treatise on the Soul', and even 'On Monogamy' (a Donatist work) are of merit to this discussion. As would be Augustine. Shoot. I endorse reading the Fathers widely. A common enough recurring theme is prayers for the dead. Not as any new practice, but as something we always did.

 

[Always in His Presence]

So I stand by the statement -- Just because we do not have a preserved writing that directly speaks to a teaching prior to a certain point in time, that is not evidence that the belief was not in place prior to that.

and you are more than free to do so - It very adequately demonstrates the teaching is extra biblical.

 

[Always in His Presence]

What's your explanation of why we Catholics and Orthodox and Jews pray for our dead?

You would have to ask them - I absolutely cannot speak definitely for over 1 billion people and why they believe what they believe.

The thread has answered my question - thanks to all who answered.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You would have to ask them - I absolutely cannot speak definitely for over 1 billion people and why they believe what they believe.

That's a good dodge.

 

[Always in His Presence]

That's a good dodge.

No, it’s the truth. Anyone who thinks they can speak for an entire people group, let alone three is either delusional or a megalomaniac

I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church. Still have my scapula and Bible. My dad was a seminarian before he met my mother. I can still sing Christmas carols in Latin.

We prayed for the dead because that is what tradition told us to do. I can only speak for myself

Can I ask a favor. Please stop treating me as an enemy or someone attacking you or your religion. Asking questions is how we learn.

 

[chevyontheriver]

No, it’s the truth. Anyone who thinks they can speak for an entire people group, let alone three is either delusional or a megalomaniac

Thank you, I think, for calling me either delusional or megalomaniacal. Or did I misread you?

I grew up in the Roman Catholic Church. Still have my scapula and Bible. My dad was a seminarian before he met my mother. I can still sing Christmas carols in Latin.

None of which impresses me at all. Sorry. Plenty of people can sing Adestes Fidelis in Latin even if they are not Catholic.

We prayed for the dead because that is what tradition told us to do. I can only speak for myself

Thank you for that answer. Kind of what I expected.

Can I ask a favor. Please stop treating me as an enemy or someone attacking you or your religion. Asking questions is how we learn.

Asking questions to learn is fine. Did you really learn anything in all of these posts or was your conclusion predetermined? My hunch is that you asked the question as you did to get a predetermined answer. The word 'purgatory' isn't in the Bible, so you could be comfortable in concluding the whole thing is 'extra-Biblical'. Leaving no need to even address the issue of why Jews and the Orthodox and the Catholics bothered to pray for their dead. Except that's what tradition told them to do, as you now say.

I guess you could convince me that your thread was not intended as an attack on the Catholic Church. It would be a little bit of an uphill slog though to convince me.