Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

[RamiC]

See post #27. Can you answer my question?

Your post #24 says "the same Church that said there is a purgatory. She came to both conclusions based on the teachings of Christ handed down through the Apostles."

My response in post #26 is "So Jesus says so at some point? Or He indicates that there is a purgatory? Where does the Bible record this, which verse or verses?"

All I am asking you is to explain your own reason for believing the Church was taught that there is a purgatory by Christ through the Apostles, if the Church did not get the knowledge from the Bible, then how do we know that knowledge came from Christ through the Apostles?

 

[eleos1954]

Show me any place in the Bible as a whole where it is clearly shown.

Purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible. The Bible presents a clear choice between eternal heaven (live) or hell (death), and Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for the salvation of believers


The core message from the Bible

The choice is real: God has set before humanity the options of "life and death, blessing and curse".

"Choose life": The Bible, specifically Deuteronomy 30:19, urges people to "choose life" by loving God, obeying Him, and holding fast to Him.

Consequences are tied to choice: The choice is not neutral. Obedience leads to life and blessing, while disobedience leads to destruction and death.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20: "I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days".

Jeremiah 21:8:** "And to this people you shall say: 'Thus says the Lord: Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death'".

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

 

[Lukaris]

Those in purgatory are considered saved but need some healing. It is prior to the resurrection.


Per University of St. Andrew in Scotland:


Purgatory is a temporary abode; a soul in Purgatory is considered ‘saved’ and destined for heaven at, or sometimes before, the Last Day, the Day of Judgment

Purgatory in Historical Perspective

www.saet.ac.uk

The idea of having some remnant sin, being put in a temporary prison & release until payment is completed is found in Matthew 5:21-26. Interpretation of this varies of course but there is a scriptural understanding to it.

 

[Dan Perez]

Looking for Latin derived words in Greek Text. Good luck

But the OLD TESTAMENT IS ALMOST all written in Hebrew and. in Aramaic. and the NEW TESAMENT

written in KOINE GREEK. $!!!

dan p

 

[RamiC]

Those in purgatory are considered saved but need some healing. It is prior to the resurrection.


Per University of St. Andrew in Scotland:


Purgatory is a temporary abode; a soul in Purgatory is considered ‘saved’ and destined for heaven at, or sometimes before, the Last Day, the Day of Judgment

Purgatory in Historical Perspective

www.saet.ac.uk

The idea of having some remnant sin, being put in a temporary prison & release until payment is completed is found in Matthew 5:21-26. Interpretation of this varies of course but there is a scriptural understanding to it.

These are the verses which are specified in the article you have linked to, as scriptural basis for the idea of purgatory -

31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32 NIV

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV

In my tradition of the faith, Maccabbees is not regarded as a suitable book from which to derive doctrine, so I skipped that one.

I am posting them just to put them up here.

 

[chevyontheriver]

In my tradition of the faith, Maccabbees is not regarded as a suitable book from which to derive doctrine, so I skipped that one.

Just wondering if the removal (or demoting) of the books of Maccabees from the Bible was the historical result of first deciding to reject purgatory and prayers for the dead.

 

[Lukaris]

These are the verses which are specified in the article you have linked to, as scriptural basis for the idea of purgatory -

31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32 NIV

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 NIV

In my tradition of the faith, Maccabbees is not regarded as a suitable book from which to derive doctrine, so I skipped that one.

I am posting them just to put them up here.

I kind of read the article rather quickly and was searching mostly for the point of purgatory preceding the resurrection and final judgment. Matthew 5:25 ( I included Matthew 5:21-26 for fuller context) is in the doctrine index of the Catholic New American Bible ( per post #38 or 37).

I have a 1928 Episcopal book of common prayer and books like Maccabees appear in the lectionary. My maternal grandmother was Methodist and had a KJV Bible ( probably over 200 yrs old now) that included the “Apocrypha”. Those books are not scripture among Protestants but they are regarded to some degree. I get confused as to how these books are regarded in Protestantism ( & I know views vary). No criticism intended towards your post in any way.

 

[RamiC]

I kind of read the article rather quickly and was searching mostly for the point of purgatory preceding the resurrection and final judgment. Matthew 5:25 ( I included Matthew 5:21-26 for fuller context) is in the doctrine index of the Catholic New American Bible ( per post #38 or 37).

I have a 1928 Episcopal book of common prayer and books like Maccabees appear in the lectionary. My maternal grandmother was Methodist and had a KJV Bible ( probably over 200 yrs old now) that included the “Apocrypha”. Those books are not scripture among Protestants but they are regarded to some degree. I get confused as to how these books are regarded in Protestantism ( & I know views vary). No criticism intended towards your post in any way.

From the 39 Articles of Faith - Article VI

"And the other Books (as Jerome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:

The Third Book of Esdras, The Fourth Book of Esdras, The Book of Tobias, The Book of Judith, The rest of the Book of Esther, The Book of Wisdom, Jesus the Son of Sirach, Baruch the Prophet, The Song of the Three Children, The Story of Susanna, Of Bel and the Dragon, The Prayer of Manasses, The First Book of Maccabees, The Second Book of Maccabees.

All the Books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we do receive, and account them Canonical."

39articles

So you will find some Anglicans/Episcopalians have Bible's which include the Apocryphal books, but they are only for "example of life and instruction of manners".

 

[RamiC]

Just wondering if the removal (or demoting) of the books of Maccabees from the Bible was the historical result of first deciding to reject purgatory and prayers for the dead.

The Apocrypha: Were Books Left Out of the Protestant Bible? | TheCollector - I chose this link because unlike any Catholic or Protestant website on the matter, it looks more neutral and objective.

There is certainly a more thorough and in depth basis for the difference than just editing the Bible based on preconceived opinion.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Apocrypha: Were Books Left Out of the Protestant Bible? | TheCollector - I chose this link because unlike any Catholic or Protestant website on the matter, it looks more neutral and objective.

There is certainly a more thorough and in depth basis for the difference than just editing the Bible based on preconceived opinion.

I wouldn’t say the deletion was nefarious, but I do think decisions on doctrine may have preceded decisions on canon.

One thing that could have been mentioned in the article was the decree on the canon from the council of Florence. At that council the Catholics and Orthodox agreed on many things including the canon and for brief months the great schism was resolved before it all fell apart again. The council of Trent merely copied the earlier canon of Florence.

 

[Fidelibus]

All I am asking you is to explain your own reason for believing the Church was taught that there is a purgatory by Christ through the Apostles, if the Church did not get the knowledge from the Bible, then how do we know that knowledge came from Christ through the Apostles?

So.... is it your belief the Bible came before the Church? It seems like it.


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[RamiC]

So.... is it your belief the Bible came before the Church? It seems like it.


Have a Blessed Day!

The Bible records the establishment of the church, and the books selected to go in it were chosen so that we would know what we can safely believe.

 

[Fidelibus]

The Bible records the establishment of the church, and the books selected to go in it were chosen so that we would know what we can safely believe.

Thank you for your response, but that's not what I asked. I asked, " Is it your belief the Bible came before the Church?"


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Always in His Presence]

Thank you for your response, but that's not what I asked. I asked, " Is it your belief the Bible came before the Church?"


Have a Blessed Day!

The Roman Catholic Church?

Absolutely yes.

 

[RamiC]

Thank you for your response, but that's not what I asked. I asked, " Is it your belief the Bible came before the Church?"

The entire Old Testament certainly existed before the Church, the New Testament was formed at the same time as the first Christians began gathering in fellowship, connected by the Holy Ghost, that is the church.

Here is where the Bible records the moment at which the church began...."2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them." Acts 2-4 NIV

The Bible records the origin of the church, and the books selected to go in it were chosen so that we would know what we can safely believe. I refer here to the scrolls upon which the selected appropriate texts were written originally, the Bible coming into existence as those first records (and letters) were penned. Now where in those ancient scrolls is our reason to believe there is a purgatory?

So to clarify my question - "All I am asking anyone to do is to explain your own reason for believing that the Church was taught that there is a purgatory by Christ through the Apostles. If the Church did not get the knowledge from the ancient scrolls that are the original texts of the Bible, then how do we know that knowledge came from Christ through the Apostles?"

HTH

 

[concretecamper]

The Roman Catholic Church?

Absolutely yes.

Considering the term "Roman" Catholic came about after the Protestant Revolt as a term used by protestants who wrongly believe they were still part of the Catholic Church, I would agree with you.

The term Roman Catholic (16th Century) came well after the Bible (4th Century)

 

[Always in His Presence]

Considering the term "Roman" Catholic came about after the Protestant Revolt as a term used by protestants who wrongly believe they were still part of the Catholic Church, I would agree with you.

The term Roman Catholic (16th Century) came well after the Bible (4th Century)

Except the earliest canon that was widely accepted almost 200 years before the church was Westernized.

Catholic stands for universal -

Roman Catholic is the denomination seated in Rome.

 

[Always in His Presence]

so far it looks like the majority of posters who replied to the topic agree that the teaching is extrabiblical.

 

[Dan Perez]

The Roman Catholic Church?

Absolutely yes.

NO. as the BODY. of Christ began with SAULS salvation in. Acts 9:6. and in 1. Tim. 1:16 is further PROOF !!

dan p

 

[Fervent]

so far it looks like the majority of posters who replied to the topic agree that the teaching is extrabiblical.

How can we determine as much if we don't first have clarity on what comprises the Bible?