The "Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

[Amo2]

CHAP. II.—CONGRATULATIONS AND ENTREATIES.​

As to our fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I pray that he may continue blameless for the honour of the Church, and of your most blessed bishop. Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom we have received as the manifestation of your love to us, hath in all things refreshed7 me, and “hath not been ashamed of my chain,” as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will also refresh9 him; together with Onesimus, and Burrhus, and Euplus, and Fronto, by means of whom I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience “ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing,” and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.

Ignatius of Antioch, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Do the scriptures really teach us to be unanimously obedient to the bishop and presbytery? To all say the same thing concerning the same thing? As though what, Bishops have all knowledge and alone express the teachings and will of God by way of proper witnessing? So that we should imitate and subject ourselves to their examples and manner of teaching in the place of who, Jesus and His apostles?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Our Lord and the Apostle Paul did not point to Bishops or a presbytery or clergy to whom a supposed laity were to be subordinated. To the contrary, they warned against those who desired after and sought such titles or exalted positions. Nor were those of the church with varying gifts instructed to seek out the approval of other mere men to learn what to say or how to present the truths of the gospel. To the contrary, they were pointed to the study of the scriptures themsleves for knowledge of such, and the power of the Holy Spirit of God unto the recollection of truth and power of presentation unto conversions. It was only in the apostasy that the Christian religion became Imperially mandated, and a laity was subjected to a clergy that were supported and backed up by Imperial command. Though some such as Ignatius planted the seeds for such illicit authority and exaltation of one man over another within professed Christianity. Once the church and the empire were united, then such illicit union brought about the enforcement these sentiments previously sought out only by way of persuasion by such as Ignatius. Bringing persecution upon those who would not conform to such wishes by mere men, with no scriptural command concerning it.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Nevertheless -

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The knowledge of truth was to be obtained by careful and prayerful study of the holy scriptures. Not the boasted positions of mere men who sought and seek to lord themselves over us. As to the type and power of the presentation of scriptural truths -

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Mrk 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[Fervent]

Exactly. But there is always a but.

Yeah, though what the "but" is often differs.

However, defining the 2 Nature's of Christ and the incarnation (something most everyone who calls themselves Christian believe) is certainly extra-biblical. The Church Fathers are critical for this.

We have the same Scripture they used, and can read their writings to see when and where they used specific Scripture to arrive at the same conclusion. We need not take them as more than Scriptural interpreters as we are today, privileged as their opinions may be. The councils all can be lined up with Scripture, so their usefulness is more in the brevity they allow rather than some kind of argument from authority.

Also, the Church Fathers can be used as proofs that the Immaculate Conception or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary are not some recent innovations (as some claim) and were beliefs held since the beginning of His Church.

They certainly can show that the beliefs arose in antiquity, but they weren't exactly ubiquitous.

 

[jas3]

And what of Polycarp himself according to the above testimony, thinking himself to be so greatly admired, as to his body being worshipped in the place of Jesus by professed Christians after his death?

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

Do the scriptures really teach us to be unanimously obedient to the bishop and presbytery?

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

Heb 13:7 Remember those who [a]rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.

Those who have spoken the word of God and holds to God, keeps the word of God Luke 11:28 John 14:23-24 Rev 22:9 not changes it. Pro30:5-6 Isa8:20

 

[Amo2]

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

By their fruits shall we know them. They said one thing, and then recounted events which testified that they did another. As pointed out in my critique as it were. You may of course choose to ignore that which I have addressed, and obey whom ever you choose to rule over you. Among the great many leaders of the great many differing Christian professing faiths and denominations.

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

Just because someone claims to have rule over others from God, does not mean they actually do. If they adhere to the following scriptural standard, I will have no problem with compliance to the real authority all of God's chosen leaders in His church have submitted to themselves as well.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No one appointed by God to be a leader in His church, is above the word of God revealed in holy scripture. Why will people ignore the many warnings in the scriptures regarding false shepherds and prophets? And bow before others claiming God's authority in blatant contradiction to His word and the testimony of His servants in the holy scriptures. Which were written under the divine inspiration of God for His followers. How can any man or institution claim authority from God over others, in contradiction to the teachings of holy scripture. Lest they claim the power to change God's word and or the testimony of His servants given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is God. Upon what scripture shall they establish such authority for themselves?

 

[jas3]

Just because someone claims to have rule over others from God, does not mean they actually do.

Irrelevant. This passage is only talking about those who actually do have authority over you.

If they adhere to the following scriptural standard, I will have no problem with compliance to the real authority all of God's chosen leaders in His church have submitted to themselves as well.

The subject is obedience to leaders who are keeping watch over your soul, i.e. bishops.

Why will people ignore the many warnings in the scriptures regarding false shepherds and prophets?

Beats me. If someone told me Jesus Christ was returning in 1843, 1844, 1845, and then 1851, and then He didn't, I probably wouldn't follow such a "prophetess," but to each his own, I guess.

How can any man or institution claim authority from God over others, in contradiction to the teachings of holy scripture.

Are you saying you reject the idea that there is such a thing as church leaders who have been granted their authority from God? That wouldn't really work with this passage in Hebrews, nor with most of the other parts where the New Testament addresses ecclesiology.

 

[Amo2]

Irrelevant. This passage is only talking about those who actually do have authority over you.

Irrelevent. As so many different people do make this claim, we all must decide for ourselves then. Nor has God given authority of one man over another, save the supposed subject agree by submission to one of the very many different people claiming authority over us. Nevertheless still, the word of God is the final authority over all true believers, above all other claims. It is only common sense therefor, for the believer to study the scriptures for truth above and beyond the claims of any. Those who will not, are on their own regarding the many forms of deception the Bible itself warns us against.

The subject is obedience to leaders who are keeping watch over your soul, i.e. bishops.

It may be proved throughout history that there have been many corrupt bishops, and or those preaching false gospels, not to mention the many different bishops of differing faiths today. All people including bishops aer subject to the word of God. So, whether you like it or not, there is always an authority above bishops and or any man for the seekers of truth to study for against what any bishop may say or teach. God has appointed no man with authority above the written testimonies of His Prophets and Apostles.

Beats me. If someone told me Jesus Christ was returning in 1843, 1844, 1845, and then 1851, and then He didn't, I probably wouldn't follow such a "prophetess," but to each his own, I guess.

I know of no such "prophetess" that ever did preach that Jesus would return on any of those dates. I know of one who as a Methodist did believe the preaching of one William Miller to the effect of such predictions, who later as one who did claim to have visions, taught that all such was a mistake and that no man knows the day or hour of our Lord's return. You might want to get your facts straight before hurling accusations of apparent ignorance. Nevertheless, no doubt we have all been guilty of the same during our life long learning curve.

Are you saying you reject the idea that there is such a thing as church leaders who have been granted their authority from God? That wouldn't really work with this passage in Hebrews, nor with most of the other parts where the New Testament addresses ecclesiology.

No, I am saying that all and any church leaders bishops or not, are subject to the teachings of holy scripture. And therefore that, any believer has the write to deny the supposed authority of any bishop or leader who would presume ungodly or scriptural authority for themselves over others which they simply do not have. Which would include the enforcement of any teaching which contradicts the plain testimony of God's word. Nor has God given the right to any man, even to attempt to force the God's honest truth upon anyone. AMEN!

 

[jas3]

Nor has God given authority of one man over another, save the supposed subject agree by submission to one of the very many different people claiming authority over us.

You may want to reread John 20:23. That kind of authority doesn't admit this wishy washy "authority by mutual consent" idea.

Nevertheless still, the word of God is the final authority over all true believers, above all other claims.

That doesn't negate the fact that the authority structure described in the word of God involves some men having authority over others.

It may be proved throughout history that there have been many corrupt bishops, and or those preaching false gospels, not to mention the many different bishops of differing faiths today.

And despite the confusion that this situation creates, we do know that obedience to a bishop is necessary, which poses a problem for those who don't have any bishops at all.

I know of one who as a Methodist did believe the preaching of one William Miller to the effect of such predictions, who later as one who did claim to have visions, taught that all such was a mistake and that no man knows the day or hour of our Lord's return.

Oh, we just don't count the times she made predictions that failed, because she hadn't really started yet. I don't seem to recall any of the prophets in the Bible having to retract repeated failed predictions from before they "started," but maybe I'm just forgetting one.

 

[Valletta]

Just because someone claims to have rule over others from God, does not mean they actually do. If they adhere to the following scriptural standard, I will have no problem with compliance to the real authority all of God's chosen leaders in His church have submitted to themselves as well.

James 514-16 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.[a] 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. RSVCE

Indeed, the Koine Greek word from which we translate the word "elders" is "presbuteros." The English word "priest" is derived from "presbuteros."

 

[Amo2]

You may want to reread John 20:23. That kind of authority doesn't admit this wishy washy "authority by mutual consent" idea.

I don't have to reread anything. I was born and raised without much knowledge of God. At which time and to this day I am, have been, and always will be free to believe in and or submit to Him or not. As He has most obviously given all men freedom to do. Which is what I have loved most about Him since being introduced to Him, that is, that I am and always have been and will be free. God Himself forces or Lord's Himself upon or over no one. Many antichrists who have will stand in judgement before God, for thinking they had the right to presume authority which rightfully belongs to Him alone. Though which, His holy character will not allow for. Choosing rather to die for the rebellious than force Himself upon them, that they might repent and return to Him in loving obedience.

I find nowhere in scripture at all, that mere men have been given authority over others above holy writ. The scriptures themselves are the final word and standard for all, that all, even those leaders chosen by congregations themselves may be held to them by the members of Christ's body. That no false authorities or "priesthoods" might arise among authentic Christianity as the scriptures warned there would, and as there have.

That doesn't negate the fact that the authority structure described in the word of God involves some men having authority over others.

By way of personal choice only. Those refusing to comply suffering no more from the church than disfellowship.

And despite the confusion that this situation creates, we do know that obedience to a bishop is necessary, which poses a problem for those who don't have any bishops at all.

Necessary for what, salvation? No, but only to remain the member of the willing congregation of said bishop.

Oh, we just don't count the times she made predictions that failed, because she hadn't really started yet. I don't seem to recall any of the prophets in the Bible having to retract repeated failed predictions from before they "started," but maybe I'm just forgetting one.

Again, there is nothing I can do about your ignorance. She did not make those predictions, a Baptist preacher named William Miller did. The dates and times being worked out by several others as well leading up to them. She received no visions and made no predictions concerning those dates. Only later did she receive visions or make predictions to the effect that William Miller was mistaken concerning the event to transpire at the dates he predicted, and to confirm that no man knows the day or hour of Christ's coming. She also warned against continuing to set new dates after the first failures. You may of course continue to spread such lies if you wish. I have no desire to control you.

 

[jas3]

By way of personal choice only.

Do you think the Judaizers who refused to submit to the Council of Jerusalem were within their rights?

Those refusing to comply suffering no more from the church than disfellowship.

Given that disfellowship is described in the Bible as being "handed over to Satan," that's not exactly something to be taken lightly.

Necessary for what, salvation? No, but only to remain the member of the willing congregation of said bishop.

Necessary to be obedient to what we're taught in the New Testament. As for what consequences there are for disobedience, it's not for me to say; Hebrews is silent on the matter, probably because the idea that someone would reject the concept of spiritual authority altogether was absolutely foreign to the Christians of the time.

She did not make those predictions, a Baptist preacher named William Miller did.

So she didn't say, "In a view given June 27, 1850, my accompanying angel said, 'time is almost finished.' But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months"?

 

[Valletta]

I find nowhere in scripture at all, that mere men have been given authority over others above holy writ.

God gave the Apostles and their successors roles and authority. In fact, their successors in the Church actually did, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, decide what was Holy Scripture and what was not.

Acts 16:4: As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.

 

[Amo2]

Do you think the Judaizers who refused to submit to the Council of Jerusalem were within their rights?

I don't think anything. If people had no right to reject truth and or God, this world would not exist. All are free to choose as they wish, nevertheless, there will come a day of reconning for all as well. God has given His Church no more authority over people, than to separate those who will not submit to the truth from their body. As is most obvious. Anyone who attempts to supersede this basic right which God has given to humanity during our time of probation as it were, is antichrist.

Given that disfellowship is described in the Bible as being "handed over to Satan," that's not exactly something to be taken lightly.

No it is not. Nevertheless, God has given all the right to do so. Until He determines the matter is settled once and for all. When the harvests of the earth are ripe, and all in one generation have made their decision.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Necessary to be obedient to what we're taught in the New Testament. As for what consequences there are for disobedience, it's not for me to say; Hebrews is silent on the matter, probably because the idea that someone would reject the concept of spiritual authority altogether was absolutely foreign to the Christians of the time.

I'm sorry, but that simply wasn't and is not the reality of the situation for authentic Christianity. The greater part of the world has always rejected the spiritual authority of the New Testament itself, let alone those who claim to preach the truth regarding it. The New Testament itself records those who rejected the authority of even the apostles themselves, not to mention occasions of disagreement between themselves, such as Paul and Peter. This is apart from the fact that the New Testament itself predicts major resistance to the truth from within and without the church. Even predicting the man of sin, setting himself up in the temple of God as though he were God. What do you think the temple of God of the New Covenant and New Testament is?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

We are not taught from scripture that the majority will accept and bow before the truth but upon rare occasions. To the contrary, we are taught to expect persecution from this world, as our Lord did also.

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

For the most part, the professed church of Christ is only in the majority of this worlds population when it has entered into an unholy relationship with the state, and "Christianity" is mandated by the same. As history testifies. But there is no authentic Christianity in or among those who are so, simply because they had or have no choice.

So she didn't say, "In a view given June 27, 1850, my accompanying angel said, 'time is almost finished.' But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months"?

Is this your way of saying or admitting that she was not the one who predicted those dates? Why don't you give a good reference to what you quoted and or add some context that all might see for themselves what exactly is being said or addressed. The author you are quoting wrote an awful lot of material, are you just clicking and pasting from someone else's arguments, or did you actually read the above in the material the author actually wrote? If the latter, why not include a reference for all to examine if they wish.

 

[Amo2]

God gave the Apostles and their successors roles and authority. In fact, their successors in the Church actually did, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, decide what was Holy Scripture and what was not.

Acts 16:4: As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.

Yes, and the writings of the "Church Fathers" were not among them and are therefore also subject to them, not the other way around.

Nor were questionable kings, emperors, or Popes presiding over and for therefore influential to the decisions they had reached. Rather the Apostles and elders,(which would be the representatives of various churches) sought and received direction from the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[jas3]

God has given His Church no more authority over people, than to separate those who will not submit to the truth from their body.

Incorrect, see John 20:23. God didn't establish a church as impotent as a local Rotary club.

No it is not.

1 Cor. 5:5 and 1 Tim. 1:20.

The greater part of the world has always rejected the spiritual authority of the New Testament itself, let alone those who claim to preach the truth regarding it. The New Testament itself records those who rejected the authority of even the apostles themselves, not to mention occasions of disagreement between themselves, such as Paul and Peter.

Right, none of those is "rejecting the concept of spiritual authority altogether," those are instances of rejecting particular spiritual authorities.

Why don't you give a good reference to what you quoted and or add some context that all might see for themselves what exactly is being said or addressed. The author you are quoting wrote an awful lot of material, are you just clicking and pasting from someone else's arguments, or did you actually read the above in the material the author actually wrote? If the latter, why not include a reference for all to examine if they wish.

The particular quote is from Early Writings, 67.2. I'm not really interested in this becoming a lengthy sidebar, though, since it seems difficult enough already to get straight answers on the main topic in this thread.

 

[Amo2]

Incorrect, see John 20:23. God didn't establish a church as impotent as a local Rotary club.

So, what punishments do you think Bishops and such should be able to inflict upon the disobedient?

1 Cor. 5:5 and 1 Tim. 1:20.

Of course anyone can say they have handed others over to satan, that does not necessarily mean such is so. No one who defies non scriptural founded principles, practices, teachings, or orders, is handed over to satan for doing so, but by false teaching and or authority. By those who stand in the place of antichrist.

Right, none of those is "rejecting the concept of spiritual authority altogether," those are instances of rejecting particular spiritual authorities.

Correct. The holy scriptures are the final authority in determining authentic spiritual authority. Those who contradict them are not to be considered authentic. Nor do any professed authorities have a right from God to declare such upon those who will not keep extra biblical and or biblically contradictory teachings or doctrines simply because they say so.

The particular quote is from Early Writings, 67.2. I'm not really interested in this becoming a lengthy sidebar, though, since it seems difficult enough already to get straight answers on the main topic in this thread.

Who is not giving you straight answers? One who desires straight answers of course, should ask straight and or factual questions. If questions or accusations are built upon false narratives, then straight answers must address those false narratives as well as giving a straight answer.

 

[Amo2]

So she didn't say, "In a view given June 27, 1850, my accompanying angel said, 'time is almost finished.' But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months"?

While I am not sure what your above question actually had to do with the fact that EGW did not make the predictions concerning the dates you claimed she did, I do still want to examine the context to perhaps grasp your point. I take it Early Writings, 67.2 means page 67 second paragraph, is that correct? I'll examine it later.

 

[Amo2]

CHAP. III.—EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.​

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, “I do always those things that please Him.” Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate Him as Paul did. For, says he, “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.”

Ignatius of Antioch, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Here Ignatius hits the mark concerning proper submission to elected church leaders. They are to be followed only in that they exemplify the life or teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The word, life, and teachings of Christ are what the world will be judged by. Not the authority of the many differing opinions or teachings of men with titles in various churches or denominations, who teach many an extra biblical doctrine or practice, or blatantly contradict holy scripture and the teachings of our Lord. There is no sin in disobeying any bishop or otherwise, who practices or preaches such. Whether a state or empire backs such teachings up by law or not. We will each be judged by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, not such as these.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Amo2]

CHAP. IV.—THE SAME CONTINUED.​

Wherefore it is fitting that ye also should run together in accordance with the will of the bishop who by God’s appointment rules over you. Which thing ye indeed of yourselves do, being instructed by the Spirit. For your justly-renowned presbytery, being worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Thus, being joined together in concord and harmonious love, of which Jesus Christ is the Captain and Guardian, do ye, man by man, become but one choir; so that, agreeing together in concord, and obtaining a perfect unity with God, ye may indeed be one in harmonious feeling with God the Father, and His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord. For, says He, “Grant unto them, Holy Father, that as I and Thou are one, they also may be one in us.” It is therefore profitable that you, being joined together with God in an unblameable unity, should be the followers of the example of Christ, of whom also ye are members.

Ignatius of Antioch, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 51.

Mrk 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

As always, Ignatius advice to submit to the will of the bishop is only if said bishop remains within the boundaries of the teachings of our Lord and holy scripture. Bishops are to be as ministers of God, they are not to lord themselves over or exercise authority upon the body of Christ, as the Gentiles do over their subordinates. This is why the Church of Christ must remain separate from the state or empire. As soon as civil authorities enforce the dogmas of a church, the leaders of the church become just like the Gentiles and are therefore apostate. Especially if they agree and support this unholy union. How could it be any other way, when our Lord and the Apostle Paul have warned us that false leaders would arise from within the church, who would seek such authority for themselves?

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It is incumbent therefore, upon all to examine and compare the teachings and lives of those who have been given and or claim authority within the church, with the teachings of holy scripture for authenticity. For what excuse will the deceived who had the word of God before them, and made no use of it unto knowledge, justification, and sanctification, have before God on that great day?

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Choose that which is more noble, and search the scriptures to see if the things you have been taught are truly so. What, do your professed leaders have authority above that of the Apostle Paul? If it was right to check what Paul preached concerning the truth, then it is certainly right and noble to check what your church leaders preach, teach, or exemplify, for conformity to the teachings of holy scripture. Especially since we have been warned of wolves seeking lordship over the Lord’s flock. Make use of that which has been given to you by God, for this very purpose.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[jas3]

So, what punishments do you think Bishops and such should be able to inflict upon the disobedient?

The canonical and biblical examples are excommunication and the retaining of sins for an unrepentant notorious sinner.

Of course anyone can say they have handed others over to satan, that does not necessarily mean such is so.

Again we struggle with getting a straight answer. Rather than respond to the principle that excommunication is described in those terms, you respond to a point that was not made by redirecting the subject to "anyone can say..." Yes, anyone can say anything and be wrong. The subject here is what terms are used to describe an actual excommunication, not whether falsely pronouncing one has a real effect.

The holy scriptures are the final authority in determining authentic spiritual authority. Those who contradict them are not to be considered authentic. Nor do any professed authorities have a right from God to declare such upon those who will not keep extra biblical and or biblically contradictory teachings or doctrines simply because they say so.

Again you redirect the subject from real spiritual authority to "professed" authority. Is there such a thing as real spiritual authority in your eyes? Authority that actually exists, regardless of whether someone agrees to submit himself to it?

I take it Early Writings, 67.2 means page 67 second paragraph, is that correct?

The EGW writings website simply labels the paragraph 67.2, I'm not sure if it corresponds to page numbers or not.