The "Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

[Fervent]

Exactly. But there is always a but.

Yeah, though what the "but" is often differs.

However, defining the 2 Nature's of Christ and the incarnation (something most everyone who calls themselves Christian believe) is certainly extra-biblical. The Church Fathers are critical for this.

We have the same Scripture they used, and can read their writings to see when and where they used specific Scripture to arrive at the same conclusion. We need not take them as more than Scriptural interpreters as we are today, privileged as their opinions may be. The councils all can be lined up with Scripture, so their usefulness is more in the brevity they allow rather than some kind of argument from authority.

Also, the Church Fathers can be used as proofs that the Immaculate Conception or the Perpetual Virginity of Mary are not some recent innovations (as some claim) and were beliefs held since the beginning of His Church.

They certainly can show that the beliefs arose in antiquity, but they weren't exactly ubiquitous.

 

[jas3]

And what of Polycarp himself according to the above testimony, thinking himself to be so greatly admired, as to his body being worshipped in the place of Jesus by professed Christians after his death?

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

Do the scriptures really teach us to be unanimously obedient to the bishop and presbytery?

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

Heb 13:7 Remember those who [a]rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.

Those who have spoken the word of God and holds to God, keeps the word of God Luke 11:28 John 14:23-24 Rev 22:9 not changes it. Pro30:5-6 Isa8:20

 

[Amo2]

The text you quoted specifically says Christians don't worship saints in place of Christ.

By their fruits shall we know them. They said one thing, and then recounted events which testified that they did another. As pointed out in my critique as it were. You may of course choose to ignore that which I have addressed, and obey whom ever you choose to rule over you. Among the great many leaders of the great many differing Christian professing faiths and denominations.

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Hebrews 13:17

Just because someone claims to have rule over others from God, does not mean they actually do. If they adhere to the following scriptural standard, I will have no problem with compliance to the real authority all of God's chosen leaders in His church have submitted to themselves as well.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No one appointed by God to be a leader in His church, is above the word of God revealed in holy scripture. Why will people ignore the many warnings in the scriptures regarding false shepherds and prophets? And bow before others claiming God's authority in blatant contradiction to His word and the testimony of His servants in the holy scriptures. Which were written under the divine inspiration of God for His followers. How can any man or institution claim authority from God over others, in contradiction to the teachings of holy scripture. Lest they claim the power to change God's word and or the testimony of His servants given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is God. Upon what scripture shall they establish such authority for themselves?

 

[jas3]

Just because someone claims to have rule over others from God, does not mean they actually do.

Irrelevant. This passage is only talking about those who actually do have authority over you.

If they adhere to the following scriptural standard, I will have no problem with compliance to the real authority all of God's chosen leaders in His church have submitted to themselves as well.

The subject is obedience to leaders who are keeping watch over your soul, i.e. bishops.

Why will people ignore the many warnings in the scriptures regarding false shepherds and prophets?

Beats me. If someone told me Jesus Christ was returning in 1843, 1844, 1845, and then 1851, and then He didn't, I probably wouldn't follow such a "prophetess," but to each his own, I guess.

How can any man or institution claim authority from God over others, in contradiction to the teachings of holy scripture.

Are you saying you reject the idea that there is such a thing as church leaders who have been granted their authority from God? That wouldn't really work with this passage in Hebrews, nor with most of the other parts where the New Testament addresses ecclesiology.