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Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

Always in His Presence

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Can it be clearly seen in Scripture or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.

For simplicity sake, can I humbly ask that extemporaneous writings and history be minimized (please don't write 1,000 words) and Scripture be emphasized.

Let's start with one verse at a time, discuss the verse contextually and then go to the next - just a suggestion.
 

Dan Perez

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Can it be clearly seen in Scripture or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.

For simplicity sake, can I humbly ask that extemporaneous writings and history be minimized (please don't write 1,000 words) and Scripture be emphasized.

Let's start with one verse at a time, discuss the verse contextually and then go to the next - just a suggestion.
And in. the KJV BIBLE. there is no Greek word called PURGATORY , LIMBO. POPE , NUNS. OR COMFESSIOAL. !!

dan p
 
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Clare73

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Can it be clearly seen in Scripture or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.

For simplicity sake, can I humbly ask that extemporaneous writings and history be minimized (please don't write 1,000 words) and Scripture be emphasized.

Let's start with one verse at a time, discuss the verse contextually and then go to the next - just a suggestion.
"Purgatory" is not a Biblical concept.

There are only two groups of people, the redeemed and the condemned (Jn 3:18).

We are born condemned objects of wrath by our sinful nature (Eph 2:3).

We are redeemed by saving faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
 
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Lukaris

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I am not Catholic and Orthodoxy does not acknowledge purgatory but I do have a fascination with the doctrine. I believe much of it is understood from 1 Corinthians 3:5-17 which involves the quality of works for those already saved.

Individuals will be more healthy than others. Kind of like a burns unit in a hospital, some may need further healing & will be. In the mean time, prayer is offered for a speedy recovery.

Sadly, I think worldly matters and corruption with indulgences almost wrecked this doctrine. It is not as outlandish, I believe, as it sometimes manifested as it was often witnessed. The human factors that did this are not uniquely Catholic, they were just fallen nature that manifest differently everywhere.
 
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Clare73

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I am not Catholic and Orthodoxy does not acknowledge purgatory but I do have a fascination with the doctrine. I believe much of it is understood from 1 Corinthians 3:5-17 which involves the quality of works for those already saved.
Interesting. . .Mk 9:49?
Individuals will be more healthy than others. Kind of like a burns unit in a hospital, some may need further healing & will be. In the mean time, prayer is offered for a speedy recovery.
Sadly, I think worldly matters and corruption with indulgences almost wrecked this doctrine. It is not as outlandish, I believe, as it sometimes manifested as it was often witnessed. The human factors that did this are not uniquely Catholic, they were just fallen nature that manifest differently everywhere.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Interesting. . .Mk 9:49?
Mark 9 in context:

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”​
Contextually the verses are quite plainly speaking of hell.
 
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44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), 2 Mac 12:44–45.

In 12:43b–46, he [Judas] takes as his starting point his firm belief in the resurrection of the dead (see 1 Macc 7) and explains the prayers and sacrifices as having atoning or expiatory value for the dead sinners so that they too might fully participate in the resurrection of the dead. The Catholic practice of prayers for the dead finds some of its Old Testament roots in this author’s interpretation of Judas’ actions on behalf of his dead soldiers.

Daniel J. Harrington, First and Second Maccabees, ed. Daniel Durken, vol. 12, The New Collegeville Bible Commentary (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 2012), 144.
 
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BobRyan

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Can it be clearly seen in Scripture

No it is not in scripture. The idea that saved people go to purgatory to work off debt, suffer for debt, become more fitted for heaven, and then go do heaven is not in scripture.

What is more, Catholic sources declare that purgatory suffering is far worse then any suffering humans endure on Earth. So the idea that the blood of Christ that saves a soul, does not also cover this immense debt of purgatory suffering, is clearly not found in the Bible
or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.
It is not found in the Bible.

we do have Heb 9 "It is appointed unto a person once to die and then comes the judgment", not "And then comes a lot of punishment until they are purged of all debt that the Gospel of Christ did not cover for them"j

and there is nothing in the Bible about humans suffering in this life more than they would owe in the lack of fire were they not saved.
There is also nothing in the Bible about humans in this life having such excess suffering being able to use that excess to apply to someone else in a place called Purgatory
 
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BobRyan

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44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), 2 Mac 12:44–45.

In 12:43b–46, he [Judas] takes as his starting point his firm belief in the resurrection of the dead (see 1 Macc 7) and explains the prayers and sacrifices as having atoning or expiatory value for the dead sinners so that they too might fully participate in the resurrection of the dead. The Catholic practice of prayers for the dead finds some of its Old Testament roots in this author’s interpretation of Judas’ actions on behalf of his dead soldiers.

Daniel J. Harrington, First and Second Maccabees, ed. Daniel Durken, vol. 12, The New Collegeville Bible Commentary (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 2012), 144.
1. The book of 2 Mac is not in the pre-NT scriptures of the Jews or the NT scriptures of the Christians
2. Even 2 Mac 12 flatly denies any benefit at all being realized by the dead, apart from the resurrection.
3. The whole point of the popular purgatory doctrine is the immense benefit realized by the dead BEFORE the resurrection if an indulgence or sacrifice is somehow offered on their behalf
 
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BobRyan

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Mark 9 in context:

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”​
Contextually the verses are quite plainly speaking of hell.
in any case they do not speak of someone who is destined for heaven but is in a temporary holding area burning off , purging off, their un met debt and then to be sent on their way to heaven
 
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BobRyan

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I am not Catholic and Orthodoxy does not acknowledge purgatory but I do have a fascination with the doctrine. I believe much of it is understood from 1 Corinthians 3:5-17 which involves the quality of works for those already saved.
Even the Catholic church claims this is a doctrine from tradition and not scripture.

1 Cor 3 makes no mention at all of a "person" being purged or burned. It talks about the teaching of a person being purged away (from the church) if that teaching is found to be incorrect.
 
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1. The book of 2 Mac is not in the pre-NT scriptures of the Jews or the NT scriptures of the Christians
Why would a canon that was established as a response to growing belief in Christianity hold any weight?

Though there is an important point here, how do we determine what should and shouldn't be included in the Bible?
 
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Dan Perez

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No it is not in scripture. The idea that saved people go to purgatory to work off debt, suffer for debt, become more fitted for heaven, and then go do heaven is not in scripture.

What is more Catholic sources declare that purgatory suffering is far worse then any suffering humans endure on Earth. So the idea that the blood of Christ that saves a soul, does not over this immense debt of suffering, is clearly not found in the Bible

It is not found in the Bible.

we do have Heb 9 "It is appointed unto a person once to die and then comes the judgment", not "And then comes a lot of punishment until they are purged of all debt that the Gospel of Christ did not cover for them"j

and there is nothing in the Bible about humans suffering in this life more than they would owe in the lack of fire were they not saved.
There is also nothing in the Bible about humans in this life having such excess suffering being able to use that excess to apply to someone else in a place called Purgatory
And I have yet to where one went to heaven. and would have to be a SPECIAL RESSRRECTION. and JOHN 3:13 SAYS NO

ONE has ASCENDED to heaven. but He. came down from heaven. is the Son. of God. !!

dan p
 
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concretecamper

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RandyPNW

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Mark 9 in context:

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”​
Contextually the verses are quite plainly speaking of hell.
That may be where some get Purgatory, but I think the verse then would've been way over-worked. Cutting off a limb as the price to get into Eternal Life is an hypothetical, and a literary form used to discourage anybody from actually cutting off their limb, which nobody in their right mind would do.

Yes, people sacrifice their lives as martyrs to hold to the faith, as a means of obtaining Eternal Life. But that's not Jesus' purpose here. He is not recommending self-martyrdom, but rather, discouraging the pursuit of anything that deviates from Eternal Life. We are not to do anything with our bodies and limbs if what we do is not done in partnership with the Lord and for His glory.

Nothing to do with Purgatory at all.
 
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linux.poet

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Hmm.

IMG_3473.png


Obvious Protestant bias. Let’s try another translation.

IMG_3470.jpeg


IMG_3471.png

:p

And finally, for the KJV inclined folks *drumroll please*:

IMG_3472.jpeg


Now I know that not all fancy theology jargon terms are named in the Bible, if I typed in “Trinity” or “omnipotence” I would get the same result. But this is a little different situation, because the Bible actually uses multiple words to describe where dead people go.

Sheol: Hebrew word for where dead people go regardless of moral condition.
Hades: Greek term for where dead people went regardless of moral condition. (Anyone remember the Odyssey where Odysseus went to Hades, the River of the dead? Same word.)
Paradise: where righteous people go after death aka those who believed in Jesus and claimed His righteousness on their behalf.
Gehenna (Hell): where people who reject the Gospel go after death.

A common teaching I’ve heard is that Paradise left Sheol/Hades after Christ’s death and resurrection and went to heaven along with all the people in in it, thus leaving Sheol/Hades to only be a current torture chamber for the unbelieving dead, which then led back around to the confusion that Sheol and Hades = hell.

And, to further substantiate my point:

IMG_3475.jpeg

IMG_3474.jpeg

IMG_3476.jpeg
IMG_3477.jpeg

So the Bible gives us all the other names where dead people go and describes the fate of the dead in some detail, but somehow neglects to mention this third location. Even the Catholic Bibles don’t have it, and the NRSVCE has the Apocrypha, so it’s not in there either. I find this to be suspect.

I do think that Purgatory exists, though, but it’s not a place where dead people go. We’re all in Purgatory now, here on Earth. Now I got some Scripture to back that up that opinion courtesy of the Apostle Paul:

Philippians 2:12-13 said:
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence but much more now in my absence, work on your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 said:
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control your own body in holiness and honor, not with lustful passion, like the gentiles who do not know God; that no one wrong or exploit a brother or sister in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, just as we have already told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness. Therefore whoever rejects this rejects not human authority but God, who also gives his Holy Spirit to you.

The sanctification process is happening now, our sins are being purged now. We are told to cooperate with this process and not try to resist it. We are told that the blood of Christ sanctifies us in the Holy Spirit and not to quench the Spirit. Romans 6:19 is another good verse to describe what I mean.

So I don’t think the Catholic teaching is far wrong - money does speed your way through this life and make it easier with more opportunities for indulgence, so they got purgatory right in that respect. I think the error made is that they didn’t place it in the right lifespan. Purgatory is for the living, not the dead.

What I think is most interesting is that there are multiple Scriptures that strongly imply that we are sanctified instantly on salvation- and that’s the point. For entrance into Paradise and Heaven,etc, it’s not our righteousness that gets us there. In that respect, a person who gets hit by a car the day after the accept the Gospel and a Christian who has undergone the sanctification process for decades both end up in the same spot. On the other hand, a gradual purging of sin does happen in our lives here as we continue in Christ. That is Scriptural, and that is the doctrine of purgatory that makes sense.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I'm Catholic and I believe in Purgatory. I'm quite sure I'll spend some "time" there after death, provided I'm not condemned.



The Plainest Text

I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov – of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”
St. Catherine of Genoa was given specific insights into Purgatory.


In the extract below, it is explained that Purgatory is not a state of lamenting sins. It is a desire for increasing holiness and of movement towards God.

Upon death, the soul sees itself as it really is and it sees it in contrast to what it was created to be. And it is the latter, that is, what the soul was created to be, which St. Catherine of Genoa refers to this as the “beatific instinct.” This beatific instinct is the capacity or desire each person was created with to love God; and with each person this beatific instinct varies. For instance, even if I were to be perfect in what God created me to be, my beatific instinct or capacity to love God would never equal that of the Blessed Virgin’s. As stars in the night sky have a different capacity to shine, souls are created with a different capacity to love God in heaven. In any case, the soul in purgatory sees – as if in an instant – his sins and how far away he had fallen from what he was created to be.

It needs to be said, however, that purgatory is not a state of lamenting sins. According to St. Catherine, focusing on past sins would be a form of imperfection. As such, “They cannot turn their thoughts back to themselves, nor can they say, ‘Such sins I have committed for which I deserve to be here,’ nor, ‘I would that I had not committed them for then I would go now to Paradise’, nor, ‘That one will leave sooner than I,’ nor, ‘I will leave sooner than he.’” Therefore, after having seen its sins and imperfections upon death, the soul no more considers them. From here on out, the object of the soul’s vision and orientation is the beauty and glory of God.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Can it be clearly seen in Scripture or is it just something 'alluded' to, but not contextually supported.

For simplicity sake, can I humbly ask that extemporaneous writings and history be minimized (please don't write 1,000 words) and Scripture be emphasized.

Let's start with one verse at a time, discuss the verse contextually and then go to the next - just a suggestion.

I guess I won't be participating in this conversation if we have to go the route of "simplicity," which is a qualifier that I don't think is really applicable to the nature of the Christian faith nor to our canonical definition of the Protestant, the Catholic or the Orthodox Bible(s), respectively.

As a philosopher oriented toward historical studies of all kinds, I can understand the 'tradition' of Purgatory and how it was eventually constructed in Catholic theology, but I'm not going to put any of my eggs into that basket of assumption. Instead, I lean towards being safe rather than sorry by not assuming that it exists as a sort of 'safety net' that's there just in case I screw up my Christian life and need further refinement.

References
Walvoord, John F., Zachary J. Hayes, and Clark H. Pinnock. Four Views on Hell. Zondervan Academic, 2010.​
First Century Jewish Beliefs About “Purgatory” [see section: The First Century Jewish Position.]​
 
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BobRyan

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And I have yet to where one went to heaven. and would have to be a SPECIAL RESSRRECTION.
What part of purgatory is that??
and JOHN 3:13 SAYS NO

ONE has ASCENDED to heaven. but He. came down from heaven. is the Son. of God. !!

dan p
Are you talking about the rapture or purgatory or are you thinking that the rapture is not in scripture
Or are you talking about what happens at death for the saved even if there is no purgatory?
 
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BobRyan

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I'm Catholic and I believe in Purgatory. I'm quite sure I'll spend some "time" there after death, provided I'm not condemned.
Ok , but on what basis do you believe in it?
I did not find a single Bible text there that says that people suffer some form of torment/suffering after death to make them ready to enter heaven.
St. Catherine of Genoa was given specific insights into Purgatory.

ok so then believers in Catherine would have a possible reason for considering Purgatory
In the extract below, it is explained that Purgatory is not a state of lamenting sins. It is a desire for increasing holiness and of movement towards God.

from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief


from: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Belief

Purgatorial fire
At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire,
and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject.
In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common.
Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything
a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397).
Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames,"
and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1).
Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides
the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire.
"Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur",
and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii)
that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life;
"Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".
How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to
heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops
"to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification',
and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
 
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