Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Hentenza]

Love your neighbor or promote burning them alive forever.

Such difficulty

Emotional fallacy.

No issues there. I accept that will happen for the devils, not those we are commanded to love
Again not hard to sort thru

But not to the rest that will be thrown in the same place under the same conditions?

Uh, no. Neither Jesus or the Apostles or the entirety of the scriptures presented any named person to such a fate. Even in the midst of being murdered, Jesus forgave. So did Stephen. Examples much?

Sure. Jesus attached the original imagery of the fires of Molech worship in Gehenna to eternal Hell as a place of fire. He twice called it “the hell of fire” (Mat. 5:22; 18:9). He twice referred to it as “the furnace of fire” into which the evil will be cast after the Judgment (Mat. 13:42, 50). He twice called it a place of “unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43, 47–48). We correctly identify the Hell the Jesus describes with “the lake of fire and brimstone” and “the lake of fire” into which the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and all those not found written in the book of life were cast for eternal torment (Rev. 20:10, 15; 21:8).

Don't know how loving our neighbors dilutes the Gospel because that IS the Gospel and the command of God

Some more emotional fallacies.

 

[Jipsah]

The heresy of universal reconciliation

A "heresy" against the beliefs of your sect, whatever that is. How dreadful! But as I noted before, I suspect that your lot has some very nice heretical beliefs of their own, as most roll-your-own denominations do.

and by default it’s cousin annihilationism were condemned as part of the heresies of Origen

You blew that one rather badly. Origin believed that all souls would eventually be redeemed, which is far from annihilationosm. In fact it's more akin to your "everyone has eternal life by default", since you both believe that no one ever really dies. "Annihilationosm", aka "Conditionalism", teach that, as Scripture says, "the wages of sin is death", and that the condemned are, agian, as Scripture says, destroyed in hell.

So, congratulations on an "own goal", there.<Laugh>

As an Anglican you probably love the writings of John AT Robinson.

Almost as much as those by Jack Spong. <Laugh>

There are several theologians that reject the biblical teaching of hell

How interesting

Everlasting contempt is NOT annihilation.

Do you hold Jack Spong in contempt? I do. He's still dead, though. (I think.)

Conclusion: Your "nobody ever really dies" doctrine is still rubbish

 

[Hentenza]

A "heresy" against the beliefs of your sect, whatever that is. How dreadful! But as I noted before, I suspect that your lot has some very nice heretical beliefs of their own, as most roll-your-own denominations do.

You blew that one rather badly. Origin believed that all souls would eventually be redeemed, which is far from annihilationosm. In fact it's more akin to your "everyone has eternal life by default", since you both believe that no one ever really dies. "Annihilationosm", aka "Conditionalism", teach that, as Scripture says, "the wages of sin is death", and that the condemned are, agian, as Scripture says, destroyed in hell.

So, congratulations on an "own goal", there.<Laugh>



Almost as much as those by Jack Spong. <Laugh>

How interesting

Do you hold Jack Spong in contempt? I do. He's still dead, though. (I think.)

Conclusion: Your "nobody ever really dies" doctrine is still rubbish

Your penchant for removing context from my post to satisfy your “sense of humor” and erroneous doctrine is quite disingenuous. Your conclusions are controversial and outside of orthodoxy. No need to reply to your post since it is devoid of an argument. Also, sect is synonymous with cult and a pejorative to mainstream Christianity which is against the forum rules.

 

[JulieB67]

But that would be the only way to defend your error.

Are you actually stating this verse is untrue and the wicked are not burned up resulting in neither branch or root left?

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

You would have to jump hurdles to get to the conclusion since eternal is indeed eternal

I don't have to jump hurdles to realize the truth of this verse which lines up with the rest of the Bible-

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."​

Only one person has life in that verse. Perish does not mean life in hell no matter how much you want to change God's Word to suit your doctrine.

ETA and regarding the Luke verses-no one has been thrown into the Lake of Fire yet. That comes at Judgement Day. Christ is describing the gulf, not the Lake of Fire.

 

[Hentenza]

Are you actually stating this verse is untrue and the wicked are not burned up resulting in neither branch or root left?

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

I don't have to jump hurdles to realize the truth of this verse which lines up with the rest of the Bible-

The verse your posted says nothing about annihilation. The NASB has a much better translation,

““For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of armies, “so that it wi | New American Standard Bible - NASB

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of armies, “so that it wi

bible.com

Setting ablaze does not specify fully consumed.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."​

Only one person has life in that verse. Perish does not mean life in hell no matter how much you want to change God's Word to suit your doctrine.

Daniel disagrees with you.

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

bible.com

Cant be annihilated and suffer eternal contempt.

ETA and regarding the Luke verses-no one has been thrown into the Lake of Fire yet. That comes at Judgement Day. Christ is describing the gulf, not the Lake of Fire.

Here we agree except that Christ is indeed describing Hell. The gulf is merely what separates them.

 

[Jipsah]

And yet you cant prove otherwise.

Sorry matey, but "Prove it ain't!" doesn't work. It's not contigent on anyone to prove that the earth isn't flat, or that whales don't speak French at the bottom of the sea. You have the burden of proving your salient points. Otherwise I'm going to require you to address me as "Your Majesty" until you can prove that I'm not Rightwise KIng of All England.

Nah. You might want to self examine. I speak of the reality of hell which has been the core teaching of the church since the beginning.

Not arguing the existence of hell, or at least I'm not. "Fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell". Try not to wander away.

You, on the other hand, promote a diluted version of eternal punishment.

And you clamor in favor of an invented version of eternal punishment that can't be supported by Scripture.

This would benefit the adversary not the Christian.

Really? How?

 

[Jipsah]

Emotional fallacy.

Well, no. You're seriously going to have to learn how these things work. He simply contrasted the positions of loving one's nighbot as opposed to torturing them forever. Diametric opposites.

But not to the rest that will be thrown in the same place under the same conditions?

I'm sorry, what?

Some more emotional fallacies.

Not even close.
In any case, the mere existence of hell doesn't doesn't militate either for or against anyone being there forever. But if we're told that those who go there are destroyed (as we obviously are), then we can be certain that anyone's stay in hell will last only until they are... destroyed. Maybe a long time, maybe an instant. No technical details are available. You say it's forever. I say it's a day and a half. Prove It Ain't (I couldn't resist.)

 

[Hentenza]

Sorry matey, but "Prove it ain't!" doesn't work. It's not contigent on anyone to prove that the earth isn't flat, or that whales don't speak French at the bottom of the sea. You have the burden of proving your salient points. Otherwise I'm going to require you to address me as "Your Majesty" until you can prove that I'm not Rightwise KIng of All England.

Not arguing the existence of hell, or at least I'm not. "Fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell". Try not to wander away.

And you clamor in favor of an invented version of eternal punishment that can't be supported by Scripture.

Really? How?

Because the adversary deceives those that argue emotional fallacies. Nothing wrong with God’s plan unless you argue that His plan is insufficient or defective. The FACT of eternal punishment IS all over scripture.

 

[Hentenza]

Well, no. You're seriously going to have to learn how these things work. He simply contrasted the positions of loving one's nighbot as opposed to torturing them forever. Diametric opposites.

No it is an emotional fallacy that people that espouse heretical doctrine use to guilt others into believing it. God is just a horrible God if there is eternal punishment. Typical.

 

[JulieB67]

““For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Setting ablaze does not specify fully consumed.

You must be joking. Even your translation spells it out. Setting ablaze and let's continue -"so that it will leave them neither root or branches. There's nothing left. Do you really have to have it spelled out for you? They will be resorted to nothing but ashes. That's what a fire does.

We are told time and time again, it's life or death. And this verse tells us without a doubt it's death. It's not life. Both body and soul destroyed in hell. That's eternal punishment, that's eternal destruction. That's the second death. There's not two books of life, one for heaven and one for hell. There's one book of life.

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Again, I only see one side getting everlasting life in that verse.

 

[Hentenza]

You must be joking. Even your translation spells it out. Setting ablaze and let's continue -"so that it will leave them neither root or branches. There's nothing left. Do you really have to have it spelled out for you? They will be resorted to nothing but ashes. That's what a fire does.

where does the verse say anything about ashes?

We are told time and time again, it's life or death. And this verse tells us without a doubt it's death. It's not life. Both body and soul destroyed in hell. That's eternal punishment, that's eternal destruction. That's the second death. There's not two books of life, one for heaven and one for hell. There's one book of life.

Actually we don’t. That is your erroneous interpretation. The second death describes those not found in the book of life and thrown in the same lake of fire as the beast, the false prophet, and satan which will be tormented for eternity. No where in the verses does it teach annihilation or that the fate of the wicked is any different.

Again, I only see one side getting everlasting life in that verse.

And you are wrong. I see that you didn’t address the verse from Daniel 12 that I posted. I guess it doesn’t agree with annihilation. Here it is again.

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

bible.com

Can’t suffer everlasting contempt if the person has been annihilated, right?

 

[JulieB67]

where does the verse say anything about ashes?

Are you in the habit of just picking out verses and leaving the rest? We wouldn't read any other book that way and the Bible is no different.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's what the result will be, ashes. Of course you'll come back with "Ashes doesn't really mean ashes" like "death doesn't really mean death" and if that's the case, I guess we're done here. We'll see in the end.

. No where in the verses does it teach annihilation or that the fate of the wicked is any different.

It teaches us there will be neither root or branch left and that they will be ashes. Christ tells us "both" body and soul" are destroyed.

But If you want to thrown out most of the Bible, then yeah, I guess one could believe anything. In the new heaven and earth "all things" are new and the former things are passed away. That's a promise.

I see that you didn’t address the verse from Daniel 12 that I posted. I guess it doesn’t agree with annihilation. Here it is again.

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I certainly did. I said only one person gets everlasting life in that verse.

 

[Hentenza]

Are you in the habit of just picking out verses and leaving the rest? We wouldn't read any other book that way and the Bible is no different.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:2 "But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Malachi 4:3 "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts."

That's what the result will be, ashes. Of course you'll come back with "Ashes doesn't really mean ashes" like "death doesn't really mean death" and if that's the case, I guess we're done here. We'll see in the end.

Ok so the scriptures are in tension then. How do you reconcile your interpretation of Malachi with the verse in Daniel?

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

How does everlasting contempt compare to ashes?

How about Matt. 25:30

“And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:30 And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

bible.com

How about Luke 16:23-24? Is the rich man being consumed to ashes?

“And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭23‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 16:23-24 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip | New American Standard Bible - NAS

And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip

bible.com

How about Matt. 25:46? Is the punishment eternal or not?

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

bible.com

It teaches us there will be neither root or branch left and that they will be ashes. Christ tells us "both" body and soul" are destroyed.

But If you want to thrown out most of the Bible, then yeah, I guess one could believe anything. In the new heaven and earth "all things" are new and the former things are passed away. That's a promise.

And yet those outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem are still suffering. (Rev.22:14-15).

I certainly did. I said only one person gets everlasting life in that verse.

So everlasting contempt is not everlasting?

 

[Jerry N.]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’m on the fence in relation to this subject. Therefore, I have found it interesting. So I asked AI about when the discussion about the immortal soul began, and the answer in part is as follows:

“Talmud (circa 200-500 CE): The Talmud contains extensive discussions by various rabbis about the afterlife and judgment, including explicit mentions of who is excluded from Olam Ha-Ba:
Rabbi Akiva: Known for his teachings about merit and punishment, he argued that certain sinners would not receive a share in the World to Come.
Rabbi Eliezer: He stated that those who committed specific transgressions, such as idol worship or slander, would not be part of Olam Ha-Ba.”
The discussion includes questions about how long the unrighteous stay in Gehenna, which ranges from 12 months to eternity.

Among Christians, the discussion seems to be rooted in Roman and Orthodox theology, which was adopted by many Protestants. Some say it started with St. Augustine. These groups designated the mortal human soul as heresy. Anyhow, the discussion is based in doctrinal writings; all of them using the scriptures that have been repeated by both sides in this thread. I’ve been considered a heretic by many Christians and Jews, and it doesn’t have much influence on the validity of the discussion. The question I’ve been waiting to see answered is the effect on evangelism and whether fear of eternal hell is a justified tool.

 

[Hentenza]

Right where your doctrine puts it. You simply change what you perceive the words must mean if your doctrine

I’m not the one espousing controversial doctrine, you are.

 

[Jipsah]

Emotional fallacy.

<Laugh> I'll take that as an "Intentionally Missing The Point" Fallacy. I think it's difficult for most rational human beings to considered torturing anyone in perpetuity is an act that can be easily be associated with love. Then again, "love" may not actually mean "love" in your lexicon

Some more emotional fallacies.

Which means they made you unhappy? <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

I’m not the one espousing controversial doctrine, you are.

Is this the "vox populi, vox Dei" fallacy you're invoking here? <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

No it is an emotional fallacy that people that espouse heretical doctrine use to guilt others into believing it. God is just a horrible God if there is eternal punishment. Typical.

I have to ask this, but is English your 1st language?