Who then can be saved?

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible is clear as to how we are saved:

Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

We’re saved by water baptism?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Gods sovereignty over every aspect of His creation, is the most rejected of all bible doctrines. The Bible does confirm that God is sovereign over the smallest things, such as the number of hairs on your head, and right through to the big ticket things such as, who will be saved and who will be left in their unregenerate condemned state.

Please explain to us why the unregenerate condemned? And make sure that your response takes into consideration everything you just said in this post.

 

[Valletta]

We’re saved by water baptism?

We are saved through the sacrament of Baptism.

Justin Martyr: “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are saved through the sacrament of Baptism.

Justin Martyr: “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Repentance often precedes baptism which is a sign of regeneration before deciding to be baptized. I would also say that there are many people who have been water baptized who are not followers of Christ.

 

[Valletta]

Repentance often precedes baptism which is a sign of regeneration before deciding to be baptized. I would also say that there are many people who have been water baptized who are not followers of Christ.

Yes, both points are true. For adult converts repentance comes first. Our sins are forgiven at Baptism and we are saved, but we can fall yet God continues to save us. As the Nicene Creed says: "I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

 

[Dan1988]

I use a number of different Bibles, the RSVCE is one of them. I noted it at the end of the passage. You didn't say which Bible you use.

I study the "Authorised Version" of "The Holy Bible". There are many faithful translations, of the original 66 Books of the Bible.
My preference is the NKJV or ESV and similar versions

 

[Dan1988]

You’re just conjuring these explanations out of thin air without actually applying the information from the passage that we’re discussing.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He said when they hear the word, meaning when they hear the gospel, they receive it with joy. You’re saying the exact opposite of what Jesus said. You’re saying that they didn’t receive the word and you’re pulling this idea that they were false professors out of thin air not because of what the passage says but because it doesn’t line up with your theology. This is what happens when your doctrines dictate the scriptures instead of the scriptures dictating your doctrines. Not only that but demons acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Calvinists say that man is incapable of doing this unless God enables him to. In order for them to “receive the word” they would have to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord which contradicts your theology. So not only did you fail to apply the information given in the passage, you also failed to apply your own doctrine of total depravity to your answer.

I'll make it super simple for you, so you should be able to understand it then.

Those on rocky soil have no firm root, because they are a vine which is not connected to Christ. So they wither and die. In other words, they are not led by the Holy Spirit, neither are they indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Pure and simple, they are not the elect of God.

 

[Dan1988]

Again what denomination am I? Grace is the free gift of God that is given to those who believe the gospel. In order to receive grace we must first believe the gospel. In Luke 7:50 Jesus told the woman

“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7‬:‭47‬-‭50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Her sins weren’t forgiven before she believed, they were forgiven after she believed. Faith is our responsibility in order to receive grace hence “what must I do to be saved?” And what was Paul’s response?

“They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Believing is our responsibility in order to be saved. So when you ask if we’re saved by works or by grace I’m thinking about what is our part of salvation? What do we have to do to be saved? That’s why I replied that we are saved by faith because that’s what we must do, we must believe in order to be saved. Grace is the automatic result of faith.

Now you have twisted the scripture backward, I showed you how we are saved. The Bible is crystal clear. We are "saved by grace" through faith, and that not of ourselves, it it the gift of God lest anyone boast.
So why have you twisted it back to front to force your theology over what God has said.

The scripture doesn't say "you were saved by faith through grace", yet this is what your suggesting it says. You can't be serious, surely you can see the error of your ways.

 

[Dan1988]

And you’re completely ignoring John 12:32. You’re not applying that information to how we are drawn to Christ after His crucifixion.

There's always been only one way to come to Christ. We are all born dead in sin, and we remain dead unless God quickens us to life and saves us.

I was dead in my sin when God saved me, you're suggesting that those who are dead in sin can activate their faith and force God to make them alive and save them. But there's nothing in the bible to support your silly theory.

The only thing dead men can do is stink, and all they can contribute to their salvation is filthy stinking rags.

 

[Dan1988]

He specifically said ABIDE IN ME in verse 4. It’s a declarative statement telling them what they must do. That’s why he said you cannot bear fruit UNLESS YOU ABIDE IN ME. Then in verse 7 He says IF YOU ABIDE IN ME, which is clearly indicating that it is not guaranteed that they would abide in Him because that’s a choice that they had to make for themselves. And again you’re completely ignoring verse 6 where He said “If anyone does not abide in Me” which according to your theology should be an impossible statement since the word abide means to stay, remain, continue, to dwell in and according to your theology it is impossible for someone to fail to abide, stay, remain, or to dwell in Christ because they can’t be in Christ unless they’ve been drawn by The Father and they can’t turn away from Him to the point of condemnation if they’ve have been drawn by The Father according to your theology.

Verse 4 is not a condiment or a condition for salvation, Jesus is simply encouraging saved people to trust Him. That's why no saved person can do anything without Him. He does everything for us.

In Verse 7 He repeats the promise to encourage saved people to remain steadfast in the faith. But never does He say, I command you to abide in Me or you will lose your salvation, this is what your denomination teaches you,. but te Lord would never says something so silly.

 

[Dan1988]

This is why you don’t understand the scriptures because when they contradict your theology you don’t try to make sense of it you just chalk it up as something we can’t understand when I’m explaining to you how we can actually understand them. They were specifically written for us to understand. The whole purpose of the scriptures is to teach us.

Yes but your explanation of the scriptures, contradicts what God said about the matter. That's the big problem I have with your version of theology

 

[privatepop]

KJV
Faith is a work.

1 Ths 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Whose Faith are we saved by? Ours or Christ's?

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Dan1988]

No Paul was speaking to them as if they were all true believers, not as if they were a mixed group. He never makes any mention of unbelievers mixed in with the group. He’s addressing them as if he is assuming that they are all believers. He was telling them that they were acting like natural men because they were not setting their mind on the Spirit. Yet even tho they were NOT spiritually appraised they were in fact ABLE TO REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. Thats why I asked you the question are they spiritually appraised and are they believers? No they were not spiritually appraised and yet they were able to repent and believe the gospel.

How do you suppose Paul knew that they were all genuine believers??? answer >>> he didn't know, because only God and the individual know. There has always been tares in every wheat field.

Yes Paul gave all of them the benefit of doubt, because He is not privileged to know w3hat God knows.

 

[Dan1988]

While I generally agree with much of what you're saying here, (minus anything that invokes a Strong, Double-Predestinarian, Calvinist position to support,) I notice you skirted around and left unaddressed what I stated or asked.

Bull-dozing others, however "prophetically" you think doing so is, isn't really a compassionate nor mutually beneficent way to have discussion with other, fellow Christians, and I don't think Jesus, Paul, Peter, James or John can be cited in support of your way of talking to others here.

You're a hair's breadth away from flagrantly being disrespectful of the rules of Christian Forums. I hope you realize that.

If a fellow Christian hates one who corrects him, then they are not defending the gospel. Such people are excommunicated from my Church

 

[Dan1988]

Please explain to us why the unregenerate condemned? And make sure that your response takes into consideration everything you just said in this post.

This is a bit embarrassing, because I'm forced to run you through the basics which I learned when I was 7 years old.

Ok, so I take it you believe that you were born dead in your sin, God said it so it must be true. I take it you believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I take it you believe that there are none righteous, none who seek after God, each has turned to his own way.
Every thought of their imagination is evil continuously, their heart is wicked above all things.

I have only mentioned a few of the qualities which you believe make these people deserve salvation. But that's not what God says about them, He said they are utterly dependant on Him to save them out of their dead condemned state, but you believe that wicked sinners can raise themselves from the dead and change their nature and become Saints.

Please show me a scripture which supports your theory.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is a bit embarrassing, because I'm forced to run you through the basics which I learned when I was 7 years old.

Ok, so I take it you believe that you were born dead in your sin, God said it so it must be true. I take it you believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I take it you believe that there are none righteous, none who seek after God, each has turned to his own way.
Every thought of their imagination is evil continuously, their heart is wicked above all things.

I have only mentioned a few of the qualities which you believe make these people deserve salvation. But that's not what God says about them, He said they are utterly dependant on Him to save them out of their dead condemned state, but you believe that wicked sinners can raise themselves from the dead and change their nature and become Saints.

Please show me a scripture which supports your theory.

So God condemns people for behaving the only way that they are capable of behaving because He created them incapable of behaving otherwise?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'll make it super simple for you, so you should be able to understand it then.

Those on rocky soil have no firm root, because they are a vine which is not connected to Christ. So they wither and die. In other words, they are not led by the Holy Spirit, neither are they indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Pure and simple, they are not the elect of God.

Repentance precedes receiving the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 Peter said repent and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The people in Samaria believed before receiving the Holy Spirit, probably at least a few days before Peter and John received word of their conversion then had to travel 70 miles from Jerusalem to Samaria to lay hands on them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed continuously before he received the Holy Spirit.

“Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10‬:‭44‬-‭45‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Acts 19 Paul met 12 believers who had not received the Holy Spirit.

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These facts prove that a person can in fact repent before they receive the Holy Spirit. The examples are shown clearly in scripture over and over. In fact they absolutely have to repent before they can receive the Holy Spirit. There’s not a single verse anywhere in the scriptures that says that anyone received the Holy Spirit before repenting and believing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now you have twisted the scripture backward, I showed you how we are saved. The Bible is crystal clear. We are "saved by grace" through faith, and that not of ourselves, it it the gift of God lest anyone boast.
So why have you twisted it back to front to force your theology over what God has said.

The scripture doesn't say "you were saved by faith through grace", yet this is what your suggesting it says. You can't be serious, surely you can see the error of your ways.

Your faith has saved you. Jesus said that. What must I do to be saved? Paul’s reply was “believe”. I showed you these passages and you just ignored them. Grace for salvation does not precede faith, it is received THRU FAITH which means that faith is the means by which we receive the grace of salvation. Furthermore the word grace isn’t limited to receiving salvation, grace is anything that God does for someone. The words of the prophets in the scriptures are grace, Christ’s ministry is grace, His sacrifice is grace, His atonement is grace, the gospel is grace, the Great Commission is grace. God The Father and Jesus have been bestowing grace upon man since the day Adam was created. Jesus bestowed grace upon all mankind when He commanded the apostles to go forth and preach the gospel to all nations in the Great Commission. So you can claim that faith does save us but Jesus and Paul both said that it does and I showed you exactly where they said it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now you have twisted the scripture backward, I showed you how we are saved. The Bible is crystal clear. We are "saved by grace" through faith, and that not of ourselves, it it the gift of God lest anyone boast.
So why have you twisted it back to front to force your theology over what God has said.

The scripture doesn't say "you were saved by faith through grace", yet this is what you’re suggesting it says. You can't be serious, surely you can see the error of your ways.

So you’re saying that we receive the grace of salvation when we don’t have faith? We are justified with God when while we don’t have faith?

 

[BNR32FAN]

There's always been only one way to come to Christ. We are all born dead in sin, and we remain dead unless God quickens us to life and saves us.

I was dead in my sin when God saved me, you're suggesting that those who are dead in sin can activate their faith and force God to make them alive and save them. But there's nothing in the bible to support your silly theory.

The only thing dead men can do is stink, and all they can contribute to their salvation is filthy stinking rags.

In Romans 1:16 Paul said that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. The scriptures state several times that the word of God does in fact save us.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My WORD, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the WORD of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring WORD of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it. So no, when people hear the gospel and receive it they’re not saving themselves at all, they’re actually being saved by the Word of God given to man by God Himself that Jesus commanded His apostles to preach to all nations which was to fulfill His promise that when He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself in John 12:32. You seem to think that the word of God itself has no power at all.