Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Studyman]

Citation please.

Matt. 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Sinning against an eternal God requires an eternal punishment whether the serpent or a human sinner.

The soul that sins shall die. In your religion, did satan die? And where is David?

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Ignoring the Biblical difference between mortal and immortal, doesn't make the difference vanish.

Citation please.

Matt. 13: 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Scriptures are specific that the punishment is eternal so the new body at the resurrection of the damn are able to handle the spiritual and physical eternal punishment.

Citation please.

 

[Jipsah]

I guess I’ll need to sent you a new pair of glasses.

Oh, I reckon the ones I have will work fine to read this: "Apollymi (απωλλυμιalpha pi omega lambda lambda upsilon mu iota) is a Greek word meaning "to destroy utterly," "to kill," or "to perish". It can refer to the permanent destruction of an inanimate object or the violent death of a living being.

So it looks like you disagree with both whoever provided this translation of the word, and with the various Greek scholars who did the translations for the various English versions of the Bible. I reckon you need to square those folks away, <ROFL>

Did you not see the variation of translations for the word apollymi or did you just decided to ignore it?

I decided to ignore it. The opinions as to the "correct translation" of the word offered by people whose knowledge of the Greek language comes from having eaten at a gyros restaurant once, and who have an ax to grind that would make them opt to choose a less appropriate "translation" if they thought it would their hand-wrought doctrinal position, renders that opinion, shall we say, dubious. Short form - I reckon your knowledge of Greek is roughly equal to your knowledge of quantum computing, and of roughly equal value. <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

Sinning against an eternal God requires an eternal punishment whether the serpent or a human sinner.

Citation, please? I 'spect you're quoting your doctrine again

Scriptures are specific that the punishment is eternal

A death sentence. The wages of sin is not eternal life in torment, it's death, and the punished will be dead forever. YOur belief that no one ever really dies is simply baseless.

so the new body at the resurrection of the damn are able to handle the spiritual and physical eternal punishment.

Made up from whole cloth.

 

[Dan1988]

That's not a very nice thing to say. In Jesus Time, the "main stream church" was the Pharisees. They had taken over the City of David, and Solomons Temple. They "professed to know God", claiming to be part of God's Church AKA, "Abraham's Children". Jesus Himself said they were "children of the devil". Lots of people chose to listen to them, rather than God's Word and as a result, they were deceived into joining with them with their man made shrines of worship, and their man made high days and man made judgments and Alms and prayers to be seen of men. True believers did not join with them, but to deny such a church exists, filled with "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, is a rejection of the Christ Himself. That is, the Jesus "of the bible".

Where does the tradition that all humans live for eternity come from? As I and others have tried to show from scriptures and discussions, it's a religious philosophy wrought in man, not God. Jude explains how this evil infects God's church.

Jude 1: 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Law and Prophests) 4 For there "are certain men crept in unawares", who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

10 But these speak evil "of those things which they know not": but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots "in your feasts of charity", when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Paul speaks about this very thing as well.

2nd Corinthians 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, "they may be found even as we". 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, "transforming themselves" into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; "for Satan himself" is transformed into an angel of light. (Wolf in sheep's clothing) 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed "as the ministers of righteousness"; whose end shall be according to their works.

And what is the doctrine that was promoted by satan in his very first recorded sermon? "Thou shall surely not die". You can find this Truth in the Holy Bible.



They are not part of the Body. You must make up stuff about others to satisfy a fleshy lust, as if I said or even implied that the devil is part of the Body of Christ. But Jesus, when asked about these times, HE didn't warn about Islam or Atheists. Please try and listen to the Jesus "of the bible" and here who HE warned about.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed" that no man "deceive you". 5 For "many" shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall deceive" many.

As you can see, Jesus' greatest fear for His People, was not Atheism or Islam or Buddha. His Greatest fear for His People was that they would be deceived by the "Many" who come in Christ's Name.

He warns again in Matt. 7:22 of "Many" self proclaimed "Christians", who work iniquity while claiming to be a member of the Body of Christ, calling HIM Lord, Lord.

The Law and Prophets prophesy and warn of this very thing over and over and over and over. But these men, "who professed to know God" wouldn't listen.

I advocate that men listen to HIM, not the popular religions of this world God placed us in, whose philosophies you are promoting.




And yet you are promoting the popular but false teaching that humans live forever. All I have advocated for is that a person consider "ALL" that is written, knowing that God's word doesn't contradict itself. And for that you judge me as believing the devil is part of the Body of Christ.

Perhaps you might step back a little and clean up your own house first, before making such judgments about others.

Something to think about.



I'm sorry you feel the need to slander me in such a way. But Jesus did warn me that if I followed Him, it wouldn't be the drunkards and atheists that will ridicule and slander me, but men of my own household who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

The only reason I disagree with everything you believe is, because you contradict everything God has said. You have consistently presented unbiblical doctrines as truth and when I show you that Gods Word contradicts your word. You simply ignore it and talk about other unrelated subjects.

You don't even know what life and death mean in the Bible, you are using carnal secular reasoning and philosophies and applying them to Gods Word. That might work for you, when your speaking with those who don't know the truth, but you're speaking to an Elect Saint of God here. Jesus told us not to have any fear, because it's impossible to deceive us. But your denomination is built on fear of the enemy.

We don't fear the enemy because the enemy is dead to us, the Devil is a dead dog, who is powerless against us.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

lol this is from a person that wants me to interpret “destroy” literally only.

Don't know where you got that idea. I have no issues with the destruction of the devil and his messengers

Point remains the "evil eye" is internal and not optional

And everyone who claims it isn't so for them are controlled by the liar

 

[Hentenza]

Matt. 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Nothing in the verse about the fate of the cursed being any different than that of the devil and his angels.

The soul that sins shall die. In your religion, did satan die? And where is David?

Acts 2: 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

My religion is Christianity. Questioning another poster’s Christianity is against the forum rules.

The resurrection has not yet happened so David is still sleeping. Satan does not die but is thrown in the lake of fire for all eternity (Rev. 20).

Ignoring the Biblical difference between mortal and immortal, doesn't make the difference vanish.


Matt. 13: 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

“and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭42‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

bible.com

No weeping and gnashing of teeth if the person is annihilated.

Citation please.

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which w | New American Standard Bible

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which w

bible.com

The dead are resurrected and they need a body to be resurrected. The resurrected not found in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire. The second death is eternal. Nothing here about annihilation.

 

[Hentenza]

Oh, I reckon the ones I have will work fine to read this: "Apollymi (απωλλυμιalpha pi omega lambda lambda upsilon mu iota) is a Greek word meaning "to destroy utterly," "to kill," or "to perish". It can refer to the permanent destruction of an inanimate object or the violent death of a living being.

So it looks like you disagree with both whoever provided this translation of the word, and with the various Greek scholars who did the translations for the various English versions of the Bible. I reckon you need to square those folks away, <ROFL>

Why ignore other meanings? So you chose the meanings that agreed with you but not the ones that did not.

Strong’s Definitions
ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

I decided to ignore it.

I can see that. That’s the only way your theory works.

 

[Hentenza]

Don't know where you got that idea. I have no issues with the destruction of the devil and his messengers

Point remains the "evil eye" is internal and not optional

And everyone who claims it isn't so for them are controlled by the liar

None of the verses that describe the impious being thrown in the lake of fire state that their fate is any different than that of the devil and its minions.

 

[JulieB67]

The reason why I used the wineskin example is because of the word apollymi which is the word for destroy in Matt. 10:28. (See Mat. 9:17). The word apollymi (strong G622) is used with different semantic meanings which means that it does not mean annihilation in context with all of the other verses that teach the eternal nature of punishment.

I disagree. We should always take the first meaning unless the context tells us otherwise.


1. to destroy fully
2. (reflexively) to perish, or lose

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Christ is not talking about wineskins in Matthew 10:28. He's talking about both body and soul being destroyed in hell. That would tells us the person is "fully" destroyed. Not life eternal in hell. That's where context matters.

I quoted Mat. 25:46 in the post that you responded to but you did not address it. Why not?

Because I already addressed this in another post.

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Only one person ends up with "life" in that verse. Your belief suggest that both have life eternal, just in different places. That is what you are stating but not what that verse states. You can continue to deny it but the second death is punishment.

Your interpretation creates a tension in scripture that does not need to be there.

So says you. But your interpretation throws out the clear verses in the OT that tells us what will happen to the wicked. To say someone is burned up to the point of neither root or branch left and ashes would then definitely point to apollumi in regards to the second death would be fully and utterly destroyed.

 

[Studyman]

Nothing in the verse about the fate of the cursed being any different than that of the devil and his angels.

Please try and focus here. You asked for scriptures which teach that the Eternal Fire of which Jesus spoke of, was specifically prepared "for the immortal devil and his angels."

I posted exactly that, and from the mouth of the Jesus "of the Bible". It wasn't prepared for the righteous angels who are immortal. I wasn't prepared for mortal men. It was prepared as punishment for immortal angels that exalted themselves above God.

Now I understand how this might be an inconvenient truth that cannot be used to promote the popular religious philosophy that ALL men are immortal. Nevertheless, it is the Words of the Jesus "of the bible" and because I no agenda or religious philosophy to promote, I am not afraid to include it in my search for God's Truth.

Jesus could have said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the men who called me Lord, Lord, but refused to submit to the righteousness of God". But HE didn't. The fire was prepared by God, for the immortal angels who sinned against God. And this truth is relevant to this discussion, in my view.

My religion is Christianity. Questioning another poster’s Christianity is against the forum rules.

There are dozens and dozens of different religions that claim the title "Christian". I asked you the question "In your religion, did satan die? And where is David?"

In my understanding of the rules, it isn't against them to ask questions about ones belief. In fact, it is written "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear".

When you replied to my post, I assumed you wanted to have a discussion which, in my view, consists or asking and answering questions.

The resurrection has not yet happened so David is still sleeping.

Well, according to Peter's words that I posted for your examination and review, David is dead and buried. And will remain so until God raises him from the dead. There were people who also believed Lazarus was sleeping.

John 11: 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus "spake of his death": but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus "unto them plainly", Lazarus is dead.

In your understanding then, is Lazarus now immortal and never died of old age since Jesus raised him from the dead? Can we go talk to him? Or is he dead and buried, waiting for the resurrection that comes for all men?

Shall we not talk about these things, given they are extremely relevant to the topic at hand?

Satan does not die but is thrown in the lake of fire for all eternity (Rev. 20).

I absolutely agree. David is not immortal, but satan is. According to Jesus, the eternal fire was created for, or "prepared for" satan and his angels. This would explain why the fire is eternal. Yes?

“and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭42‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

bible.com

No weeping and gnashing of teeth if the person is annihilated.

Doesn't God raise them from the dead, and then judge them? Doesn't Jesus give us a glimpse into "That day" concerning the "many" Christians that spoke to Him face to face in Matt. 7: 22,23?

You don't think these "Christians" were angry, upset? Read the prophesy! These men were pleading with the Christ, "Hey, wait a minute, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses in your name, created massive shrines of worship in your name. We created our own high days and huge statues, all in your name?

When Jesus shows them they are cast out because they rejected and refused to "Live By" God's Word, as Jesus instructs. When they are shown that it was right there, right in front of them.

Duet. 30: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us", that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word "is very nigh unto thee", in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

But they chose to serve the religions of this world God placed them in instead. I don't think you have really thought about the impact that would have on men, if they had chosen to follow the "course of this world", instead of "Yielding themselves" to God as Paul taught.

And now they are staring at the end of their existence, their total destruction with no hope of ever existing again. There is no doubt that there will be pleading and begging, and then anger and gnashing of teeth before God casts them off, just as HE promised from the very beginning.

But maybe you are right, maybe God is a vindictive vengeful God who holds eternal grudges against mere mortal humans HE himself created and gave a Choice, "Life or death".

Maybe HE revels in the voices of pain and suffering for those who chose death, and desires for Him and those in His Kingdom to hear their torment for eternity.

But such a God only exists in the mind of the promoters of this world's religious system, in my view. I don't find any evidence of this God in the Holy Scriptures.

“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which w | New American Standard Bible

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which w

bible.com

The dead are resurrected and they need a body to be resurrected. The resurrected not found in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire. The second death is eternal. Nothing here about annihilation.

Yes, the 2nd death is "Death Everlasting", there is no return from this death. No more resurrections. Eternal Destruction from the presence of the Omnipresent God.

I have asked the question, but no one will answer, "Where can life exist, that God doesn't exist?"

2Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction "from the presence of the Lord", and from the glory of his power;

Nevertheless, it is good to have these discussions in my view.

 

[Hentenza]

I disagree. We should always take the first meaning unless the context tells us otherwise.


1. to destroy fully
2. (reflexively) to perish, or lose

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Christ is not talking about wineskins in Matthew 10:28. He's talking about both body and soul being destroyed in hell. That would tells us the person is "fully" destroyed. Not life eternal in hell. That's where context matters.

That would be hermeneutical error. But that would be the only way to defend your error.

Because I already addressed this in another post.

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Only one person ends up with "life" in that verse. Your belief suggest that both have life eternal, just in different places. That is what you are stating but not what that verse states. You can continue to deny it but the second death is punishment.

You would have to jump hurdles to get to the conclusion since eternal is indeed eternal and eternal being an adjective modifying punishment would make punishment as eternal as eternal life. The contrast here is absolute.

Secondly, Luke tells us what is like to be in hades for the wicked. There is no end. The rich man is very much alive and not annihilated.

“Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who want to go over from here to you will not be able, nor will any people cross over from there to us.’”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭22‬-‭26‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 16:22-26 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abra | New American Standard Bible - NAS

Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abra

bible.com

So says you. But your interpretation throws out the clear verses in the OT that tells us what will happen to the wicked. To say someone is burned up to the point of neither root or branch left and ashes would then definitely point to apollumi in regards to the second death would be fully and utterly destroyed.

There are no clear verses that defend annihilation. Many verses refute it.

 

[Hentenza]

Please try and focus here.

Great start to your post. Let’s just demean instead of being civil.

You asked for scriptures which teach that the Eternal Fire of which Jesus spoke of, was specifically prepared "for the immortal devil and his angels."

I posted exactly that, and from the mouth of the Jesus "of the Bible". It wasn't prepared for the righteous angels who are immortal. I wasn't prepared for mortal men. It was prepared as punishment for immortal angels that exalted themselves above God.

You did not.

Now I understand how this might be an inconvenient truth that cannot be used to promote the popular religious philosophy that ALL men are immortal. Nevertheless, it is the Words of the Jesus "of the bible" and because I no agenda or religious philosophy to promote, I am not afraid to include it in my search for God's Truth.

Jesus could have said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the men who called me Lord, Lord, but refused to submit to the righteousness of God". But HE didn't. The fire was prepared by God, for the immortal angels who sinned against God. And this truth is relevant to this discussion, in my view.

The same fate for the wicked since they were thrown in the very same place to suffer the very same fate. The verse could have read “not eternal for the wicked but eternal for the devil” but it does not say that. Instead the fates are joint together.

There are dozens and dozens of different religions that claim the title "Christian". I asked you the question "In your religion, did satan die? And where is David?"

There is only one religion that is Christianity. There are not many since there is only one Christ.

In my understanding of the rules, it isn't against them to ask questions about ones belief. In fact, it is written "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear".

The rules prohibit you to question a poster’s Christianity. If you want to ask me about my beliefs then go right ahead but dont ask me if my religion is anything other than Christianity because I would not be allowed to post here if it wasn’t,

When you replied to my post, I assumed you wanted to have a discussion which, in my view, consists or asking and answering questions.

Just like you began this post? We can have a conversation but we do not have to agree. If you posit a questionable doctrine I am going to refute it.

Well, according to Peter's words that I posted for your examination and review, David is dead and buried. And will remain so until God raises him from the dead. There were people who also believed Lazarus was sleeping.

And I answered as such. Were you expecting a different answer?

John 11: 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus "spake of his death": but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus "unto them plainly", Lazarus is dead.

In your understanding then, is Lazarus now immortal and never died of old age since Jesus raised him from the dead? Can we go talk to him? Or is he dead and buried, waiting for the resurrection that comes for all men?

How would you even draw that conclusion at this stage. The judgement and resurrection has not yet happened.

Shall we not talk about these things, given they are extremely relevant to the topic at hand?

Sure but relevance and historical accuracy are important.

I absolutely agree. David is not immortal, but satan is. According to Jesus, the eternal fire was created for, or "prepared for" satan and his angels. This would explain why the fire is eternal. Yes?

No. Those not found in the book of life are thrown into the very same lake of fire to suffer the very same fate as satan otherwise it would say that the fare is different but it does not.

Doesn't God raise them from the dead, and then judge them? Doesn't Jesus give us a glimpse into "That day" concerning the "many" Christians that spoke to Him face to face in Matt. 7: 22,23?

You don't think these "Christians" were angry, upset? Read the prophesy! These men were pleading with the Christ, "Hey, wait a minute, don't you know who we are? We created massive religious businesses in your name, created massive shrines of worship in your name. We created our own high days and huge statues, all in your name?

If their names are not found in the book of life at judgement time then they are going into the lake of fire for eternity.

When Jesus shows them they are cast out because they rejected and refused to "Live By" God's Word, as Jesus instructs. When they are shown that it was right there, right in front of them.

Duet. 30: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us", that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word "is very nigh unto thee", in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

But they chose to serve the religions of this world God placed them in instead. I don't think you have really thought about the impact that would have on men, if they had chosen to follow the "course of this world", instead of "Yielding themselves" to God as Paul taught.

And now they are staring at the end of their existence, their total destruction with no hope of ever existing again. There is no doubt that there will be pleading and begging, and then anger and gnashing of teeth before God casts them off, just as HE promised from the very beginning.

But maybe you are right, maybe God is a vindictive vengeful God who holds eternal grudges against mere mortal humans HE himself created and gave a Choice, "Life or death".

Maybe HE revels in the voices of pain and suffering for those who chose death, and desires for Him and those in His Kingdom to hear their torment for eternity.

But such a God only exists in the mind of the promoters of this world's religious system, in my view. I don't find any evidence of this God in the Holy Scriptures.

They are staring at eternity in the lake of fire and Rev. 20 teaches.

Yes, the 2nd death is "Death Everlasting", there is no return from this death. No more resurrections. Eternal Destruction from the presence of the Omnipresent God.

I have asked the question, but no one will answer, "Where can life exist, that God doesn't exist?"

2Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction "from the presence of the Lord", and from the glory of his power;

Absolutely but not annihilation.

Nevertheless, it is good to have these discussions in my view.

Sure as long as we keep it civil.

 

[Neogaia777]

Everyone and everything's fate/ultimate destination is/was/always is already fully known/fixed/decided already always, and cannot be changed, because this universe and all of the universe’s/world's before and after it/this always was/were/is/are/always are/is, fully deterministic always.

Therefore all destinations/fates of all things have always been eternal/fixed always, and bad people will always just repeat just only more of this always, because they already always have been repeating it always, and will continue to repeat it always, in creations that is/are/were both before and after this always, because everything's fates is always 100% known/already decided for them already by God always, and can't be changed always, and also those getting to go to heaven always, because all and everything's fate/fates are/always have been/always will be, always fully known by God and always unchagable eternal always, etc.

The people not getting into heaven only have more of this to look forward to always, and that both is/always was/always has been, in the always and forever unchagable and always fixed/forever eternal always, in creations that have been both before this one, and that will always be after this one always, etc, because it/that/this has also always been eternal also always, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jipsah]

Why ignore other meanings?

Because, unlike you, I'm not frantically searchng for any scrap that will even seemingly support a doctrine that has more holes in it than a chain link fence. I'm quite content with the translation of the actual Greek scholars who presumably knew more about both languages than either of us ever will. And when your argument requires me to adopt your amateur-hour "translation" as the proper one, well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, now does it?

Your position depends on wholesale redefinition of words. "Die" doesn't really mean "die", and "dead doesn't really mean dead. Ditto "death". Now "destroy" doesn't really mean "destroy". The wages of sin isn't really "death", it's eternal life in misery, The soul that sins doesn't really die, it lives forever under torture,

In fact, it seems that the only one in Scripture using those words in their normal meaning is Satan, when he says "You shall not surely die.

So you chose the meanings that agreed with you but not the ones that did not.

Strong’s Definitions
ἀπόλλυμι apóllymi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


I can see that. That’s the only way your theory works.

While yours requires you to assume that: A) Nobody ever actually dies and everybody has eternal life by default, and B) that pretty much any word in the Bible that refers to dying, death, or personal destruction, actually means something else. I read your "theory" as arrant rubbish.

 

[Hentenza]

Because, unlike you, I'm not frantically searchng for any scrap that will even seemingly support a doctrine that has more holes in it than a chain link fence. I'm quite content with the translation of the actual Greek scholars who presumably knew more about both languages than either of us ever will. And when your argument requires me to adopt your amateur-hour "translation" as the proper one, well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, now does it?

Your position depends on wholesale redefinition of words. "Die" doesn't really mean "die", and "dead doesn't really mean dead. Ditto "death". Now "destroy" doesn't really mean "destroy". The wages of sin isn't really "death", it's eternal life in misery, The soul that sins doesn't really die, it lives forever under torture,

In fact, it seems that the only one in Scripture using those words in their normal meaning is Satan, when he says "You shall not surely die.

While yours requires you to assume that: A) Nobody ever actually dies and everybody has eternal life by default, and B) that pretty much any word in the Bible that refers to dying, death, or personal destruction, actually means something else. I read your "theory" as arrant rubbish.

Nah. You are the one with the hermeneutical disaster not me. No wonder annihilation is heresy and not accepted because is simply not biblical.

 

[Jipsah]

Nah. You are the one with the hermeneutical disaster not me. No wonder annihilation is heresy and not accepted because is simply not biblical.

Accepted by whom? the First United Pentcostal Holiness Free Will End Times Baptist Tabernacle of Faith ? <Laugh> But hey, Truthh can always be accurately be determined by a popular vote, which is why we're all Roman Catholics. Vox populi, vox Dei, right?

As for "not Biblical", you still have yet to cite any Scripture that even remotely says that everyone has eternal life by default. If we're hunting for heretics, you may want to hide out in the woods until it blows over. <ROFL> I'm betting you believe that the Bread and Wine (or Wonder Bread and Welchade in your case) of the Lord's Supper are just just a sip and a nibble and No Big Deal, right? Weeelll, in the RCC's eyes, and I think amongst the Orthodox as well, that makes you a heretic.

But no, I'm no heretic as Anglicans reckon heresy. In some branches of Anglicanism, even you may not be. But before you want to charge folks with heresy, you may want to see how much of that is likely to splash back on you. It's an awfully easy charge to make, especially when you may not entirely understand what it means. 8)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

None of the verses that describe the impious being thrown in the lake of fire state that their fate is any different than that of the devil and its minions.

As noted many times what you hold as fact doesn't exist in scripture.

The sad part is it's concocted in our own dark hearts by our adversary who promotes burning our neighbors alive forever and will do so to its own end