Causing offence

[Carl Emerson]

Jesus spoke truth and often offended.

Discuss how this applies in our world.

Are we loosing an 'edge' if we don't offend?

Is the church largely silent on public issues for this reason?

Your input appreciated.

 

[Fervent]

Who was it that Jesus offended, and for what reason?

Paul has this advice that could be relevant:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

 

[Delvianna]

We should rebuke when necessary and if that offends, then it does. But we should always speak the truth in love, can be tough love, but still love.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Jesus spoke truth and often offended.

Discuss how this applies in our world.

Are we loosing an 'edge' if we don't offend?

Is the church largely silent on public issues for this reason?

Your input appreciated.

For Mission/Witnessing it usually is most helpful for believers (or a church) not te be known as the ones who are against all kind of things, but to be known for our virtuous behaviour, love, compassion, spiritual strength, etc. The Apostle Paul used similar methods when speaking to the Greek.

At the same time indeed we also have to speak out against what is immoral and unjust - what in Western contexts (and especially so in NZ / AU) this is often one-sided; some things are heavily critised while other things aren't even mentioned. E.g. abortion may still be spoken against, but social injustice or bad stewardship for this earth (Biblical environmentalism) rarely gets any mention for a pulpit. The TNK/Torah emphasises those yet in Western Christian churches what remains are warnings against addictions, abortion or sexual immorality while skipping what the TNK/Torah actually teaches on that.

An additional complicating element in NZ, AU and the UK is the legal risk - a Christian simply cannot speak their mind freely anymore without liability risk. So indeed the church gets muzzled/subdued by the secular world.

 

[Fervent]

For Mission/Witnessing it usually is most helpful for believers (or a church) not te be known as the ones who are against all kind of things, but to be known for our virtuous behaviour, love, compassion, spiritual strength, etc. The Apostle Paul used similar methods when speaking to the Greek.

At the same time indeed we also have to speak out against what is immoral and unjust - what in Western contexts (and especially so in NZ / AU) this is often one-sided; some things are heavily critised while other things aren't even mentioned. E.g. abortion may still be spoken against, but social injustice or bad stewardship for this earth (Biblical environmentalism) rarely gets any mention for a pulpit. The TNK/Torah emphasises those yet in Western Christian churches what remains are warnings against addictions, abortion or sexual immorality while skipping what the TNK/Torah actually teaches on that.

An additional complicating element in NZ, AU and the UK is the legal risk - a Christian simply cannot speak their mind freely anymore without liability risk. So indeed the church gets muzzled/subdued by the secular world.

There's a time for speaking out, but moralizing is just going to get the message ignored in favor of external signs of purity culture and legalistic bullying. We know the world is evil, but the world has no sense of shame or guilt such that calling them out does anything but give them cause for mockery. We judge those among us, with gentle rebukes and addressing issues that crop up in the church. Any offense we cause to unbelievers should be thoroughly unjustifiable, which is rarely the case when we try to shove our values down their throat and give them just cause to find us unpleasant. Christ died for His enemies, while they were still sinners. judgment shouldn't cause offense, because the wise man loves correction. So if we are offending people with our judgment, then we are doing something wrong. When we do it right, people's consciences condemn them without us speaking.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Who was it that Jesus offended, and for what reason?

Paul has this advice that could be relevant:
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

I started to compile a reply but found too many scriptures to list.

Try a NT search in the word hypocrite for starters.

Then there is the moneychangers. It is hard to conclude they were believers.

Then there is the rich young man.

How about "leave the dead to bury the dead" (referring to one's relatives.)

Jesus would have openly spoken against hypocrisy and lukewarmness in the church.

In the seven letters to the churches His Spirit did not mince words.

 

[Fervent]

I started to compile a reply but found too many scriptures to list.

Try a NT search in the word hypocrite for starters.

Fair enough, though perhaps you might notice a common theme?

Then there is the moneychangers. It is hard to conclude they were believers.

more than likely they were Jewish authorities, in order to be able to conduct such operations on temple grounds.

Then there is the rich young man.

Did he offend him? By answering his question?

How about "leave the dead to bury the dead" (referring to one's relatives.)

I'm not sure that's necessarily a statement intended to cause offense, could you elaborate on what you mean?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Did he offend him? By answering his question?

He went away sorrowful.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you were on the way to your brother's funeral and told not to go...

"Leave the dead to bury the dead..."

I am sure most folks would take offence at that statement.

 

[Fervent]

He went away sorrowful.

Sure, but when I think offense I think more provoking anger.

 

[Fervent]

If you were on the way to your brother's funeral and told not to go...

"Leave the dead to bury the dead..."

I am sure most folks would take offence at that statement.

Perhap, though I think there's a cultural element that is missing in your analysis.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Perhap, though I think there's a cultural element that is missing in your analysis.

Please explain...

 

[Fervent]

Please explain...

I'm not up to giving the full explanation because I'm not that invested in this conversation, but essentially it comes down to Jewish burial practices in the first century informing Jesus' meaning. From the text, there's no reason to think there was a provocative reaction, though Jesus did likely had an element of sarcasm to His words. But sarcasm isn't always intended to cause offense.

 

[ChubbyCherub]

The meeting I had with the church leaders this week was enlightening. They believe in hell, which they confirmed, but they don't use the word. The use the word 'judgment' instead. So, what follows judgment?

They use the word 'sin' but don't define what sin is and why it matters or how it pertains to 'judgment'.

I came away feeling very sad.

 

[NBB]

the 'i'm offended system' is totally wrong, you can offend a lot of people just by having and stating your traditional moral values,
at the same time they can wish you all kinds of harm because of that, and you are the morally wrong in their view.

 

[d taylor]

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Well a person can offend people all they want to and think they are serving God. Because they are offending people using church talk.

But if they are not accurately witnessing to unbelievers. How to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, only by belief in Jesus. Then they are just simply offending people and more than likely placing a hindrance/blindness to the accurate message of eternal life, that is received by belief in Jesus.

 

[bèlla]

Judgment begins with the church and we aren’t in a position to take anyone to task with christians running amok. If your brethren won’t listen to you why would a stranger? And what does it say about an entity that can’t bring its own to heel?

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

Matt 15

10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand! 11 It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.”

12 Then the disciples came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?” 13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Leave them alone; they are blind guides of blind people. And if a person who is blind guides another who is blind, both will fall into a pit.”

 

[bèlla]

But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Leave them alone; they are blind guides of blind people. And if a person who is blind guides another who is blind, both will fall into a pit.”

You keep posting these threads and I can’t help wondering why you haven’t addressed the issue in a wider setting. What do you expect to accomplish in a venue with limited traffic? The answer is evident but I’m wondering why it alludes you.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

You keep posting these threads and I can’t help wondering why you haven’t addressed the issue in a wider setting. What do you expect to accomplish in a venue with limited traffic? The answer is evident but I’m wondering why it alludes you.

~bella

What is the evident answer ?

I am presently pretty isolated for various reasons.

Is there a better forum ?