Leviticus 20, Charlie Kirk, and Homosexuality

[SabbathBlessings]

He=Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
The Pharisees frequently and repeatedly accused Jesus of breaking the Law of Moses, or at least the accepted interpretation of the Law at that time.
In their standards they intended to accuse Jesus of breaking the Law if he showed mercy. Jesus's action was not a nullification of the Mosaic Law, but a powerful act of justice that upheld the Law's strict requirements for a fair trial, and an act of mercy that extended forgiveness to the repentant sinner.

Do we believe His accusers who crucified Him without a cause or the words of Jesus who said He was not guilty of these crimes. Jesus said He never broke any laws. I know who I believe.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

The weighter matter of this law was mercy.

Lets quote the whole Scripture

Mat 23:“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom 3:31

When is justice not doing what is right in God's eyes? Is committing adultery right in God's eyes? He said it was sin and no sin will not be forgiven if we ask for His help in forsaking Pro28:13, which means turning from, the sins we live in and think we are doing the will of God is the ones that remains no more sacrifice for Heb10:26-30

Who God shows mercy to in His written and spoken Testimony

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Lets not mistake mercy for continuing in the path of unrighteousness and sin. Our sins should be painful because of what it did to Jesus. Once we receive grace (mercy) like the adulteress, why would anyone want to continue in sin if we love Jesus? Ro6:1-2 John 14:15

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Do we believe His accusers who crucified Him without a cause or the words of Jesus who said He was not guilty of these crimes. I know who I believe.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”


Lets quote the whole Scripture

Mat 23:“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom 3:31

When is justice not doing what is right in God's eyes? Is committing adultery right in God's eyes? He said it was sin and no sin will not be forgiven if we ask for His help in forsaking Pro28:13, which means turning from, the sins we live in and think we are doing the will of God is the ones that remains no more sacrifice for Heb10:26-30

Who God shows mercy to in His written and spoken Testimony

Xo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Yarddog]

I have been hearing repeatedly from numerous left wingers that Charlie Kirk advocated stoning gays to death, calling it "God's perfect law". Obviously this is referring to Leviticus 20:13, which tells the Israelites to put both men to death if they commit a homosexual act. Leviticus 20 also condemns incest, bestiality, and other sexual immoralities. This was part of the agreement for the Israelites to keep their new land God was giving them.

I have heard others say that particular verse was an "ancient mistranslation", as some people simply cannot accept the idea that God does not advocate for homosexuality. Anyway: We are not living under Levitical law, and I in no way believe for one moment that Charlie Kirk thought that we should be stoning gays to death in 2025 in the United States. But he believed in the Bible, and I don't doubt he called it "God's perfect law".

Of course these sentences sound harsh to modern ears, although I have no problem with them. God wanted His chosen people to be clean and free of immorality, and many Old Testament passages sound pretty rough - especially compared with the gospel, God's perfect solution to the problem of sin.

So this is what I want to ask you: Do you discount Leviticus 20? Do you think that God would never have said this? Do you think Leviticus 20:13 is the result of an "ancient mistranslation"? It seems pretty clear to me. As I've said, I have no problem with these verses, far be it from me to tell God how to conduct HIs business. The penalties are rough, true, but the wages of sin are death. You don't get much rougher than that. God has high standards, and only accepts perfection. Which is why we all need His son.

I'm just asking because it seems there are so many in the modern world who simply can't accept that there could be such violent consequences for breaking God's law. Or that certain things would even be in God's law.

The Law wasn't given because of faith but because the lack of faith by the Israelites. They placed themselves under the law. Thus, stoning those that the law called for was righteous.

There was the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Jesus showed this by telling the Jews that he who is without sin to cast the first stone, at the adulteress. Since none were without sin, they left.

Even though homosexuality is not God's will, we should not forget God's command to love all. Showing compassion to those born differently is what we are called to do.

I don't know enough about Charlie Kirk to know how he really felt about this issue. I won't try to judge him but he did love God. He stated his position on issues and listened to those which disagreed.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Law wasn't given because of faith but because the lack of faith by the Israelites. They placed themselves under the law. Thus, stoning those that the law called for was righteous.

There was the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Jesus showed this by telling the Jews that he who is without sin to cast the first stone, at the adulteress. Since none were without sin, they left.

Even though homosexuality is not God's will, we should not forget God's command to love all. Showing compassion to those born differently is what we are called to do.

I don't know enough about Charlie Kirk to know how he really felt about this issue. I won't try to judge him but he did love God. He stated his position on issues and listened to those which disagreed.

God's Ten Commandments shows what sin is- what is right or wrong, Rom3:20 Rom7:7 Psa 119:172, the stoning was the judgement and a result of sin. We are no longer under a therocracy but sin still calls for the death sentence if we do not go to Jesus seeking His help in forsaking. Judgment however is on the last day John 14:23

The law was not given because of lack of faith. Its a test of faith,

Luk 46:6 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Faith is obedience and doing what is right. Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31

Whatever ones belief on what under the law means, which I believe it means under the condemnation of the law to be guilty before God Rom3:19 does not take away the righteous requirement of the law to be fulfilled in us Rom8:4, Paul makes it clear its not a license to break God's law and sin

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

 

[iarwain]

Even though homosexuality is not God's will, we should not forget God's command to love all. Showing compassion to those born differently is what we are called to do.

Well, no one is calling for homosexuals to be stoned that I'm aware of, certainly not on this forum anyway. That was just an ugly accusation aimed at Charlie Kirk. I'm going to disagree if you're implying that all homosexuals are "born that way" though. Especially given the recent culture, where young children are actually encouraged to grow up with alternative orientations and gender identifications. We've seen that it has made a difference, and has been compared with a fad. Some do choose to become homosexual. And some choose to go back to heterosexuality. I've seen studies that show that the more pornography one is exposed to, the more likely they are to become bisexual at least.

 

[Yarddog]

God's Ten Commandments shows what sin is- what is right or wrong, Rom3:20 Rom7:7 Psa 119:172, the stoning was the judgement and a result of sin. We are no longer under a therocracy but sin still calls for the death sentence if we do not go to Jesus seeking His help in forsaking. Judgment however is on the last day John 14:23

Correct. The law is holy. As Christians, the only thing that separates us from judgment is Jesus Christ who is our perfection, through faith. We must remember our forgiveness and treat others the same by not judging them.

The law was not given because of lack of faith. Its a test of faith,

Incorrect. Israel failed the test of faith by looking back to Egypt, while in the wilderness. Lot's wife had done the same by looking back to Sodom after God led the out. As Christians, we are to never look back to what God has called us out of. That is lacking faith.

Luk 46:6 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Yes, forgive others and love as he has loved us. Why do so many Christians fail to do these things?

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Amen. Abraham obeyed God and not laws written on stone.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Amen, Abraham obeyed God but Israel failed.

Faith is obedience and doing what is right. Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31

Faith is obeying God, not laws written in stone. As scripture says:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5 : 22
meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
Galatians 5 : 23

Whatever ones belief on what under the law means, which I believe it means under the condemnation of the law to be guilty before God Rom3:19 does not take away the righteous requirement of the law to be fulfilled in us Rom8:4, Paul makes it clear its not a license to break God's law and sin

I never implied that it did.

 

[Yarddog]

Well, no one is calling for homosexuals to be stoned that I'm aware of, certainly not on this forum anyway. That was just an ugly accusation aimed at Charlie Kirk.

I never said it was factual.

I'm going to disagree if you're implying that all homosexuals are "born that way" though.

Feel free to provide evidence against it.

Especially given the recent culture, where young children are actually encouraged to grow up with alternative orientations and gender identifications.

What evidence do you have supporting this accusation.

We've seen that it has made a difference, and has been compared with a fad.

I have seen none.

Some do choose to become homosexual.

No evidence to support this. One may choose to have homosexual relationships but one's sexual attraction isn't chosen. I didn't choose to be attracted to women. That is some part of who I am.

And some choose to go back to heterosexuality. I've seen studies that show that the more pornography one is exposed to, the more likely they are to become bisexual at least.

Bisexuals are attracted to both male and female. They can switch from one mate to the opposite sex based on attraction but they are still bisexual.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Incorrect. Israel failed the test of faith by looking back to Egypt, while in the wilderness. Lot's wife had done the same by looking back to Sodom after God led the out. As Christians, we are to never look back to what God has called us out of. That is lacking faith.

According to Scripture faith does not void the law Rom3:31 no Scripture says the law was added because of lack of faith and I certainly do not see Scripture posted to support your assertion.

Where there is no law there is no sin Rom4:15 Cain knew it was sin to kill Abel and thou shalt not murder came from the Ten Commandments. Exo 20:1-17

Yes, forgive others and love as he has loved us. Why do so many Christians fail to do these things?

Yes I wonder as well. Love is summed up by keeping God's commandments Exo 20:6 1John5:2-3 rebellion and sin is breaking them 1John2:4 Heb3:7-19

Amen. Abraham obeyed God and not laws written on stone.

He said he obeyed God's commandments where does it say the Ten Commandments are not God's, when He personally wrote them Himself and under His mercy seat, God Himself claimed them as such. Are you saying you know better than He? God's own Testimony Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 Exo 31:18

Amen, Abraham obeyed God but Israel failed.

Yes they did, because they disobeyed God, which is rebellion sin and unbelief Heb3:7-19 what we are told not to follow in their same path of disobedience Heb4:11

Faith is obeying God, not laws written in stone

Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31

. As scripture says:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5 : 22
meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
Galatians 5 : 23

The fruits of the spirit and the law of God works in tandem, not against. Just as Jesus taught Mat5:19-30. How could it not since its the Holy Spirit who wrote the law and this is what bears its fruit, keeping through faith and love. John14:15-18

Just a small example:
Psa 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law,
And [a]nothing causes them to stumble.

So you see what the fruits of the spirit are, lets look at the fruits of those who walk not in the spirit but of the flesh. Those without the law of God Rom8:7-8

What Jesus spoke of as well in Mat5:19-30

Gal5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I am happy to provide a detailed Bible study on this if I thought it will help. If so, let me know.

God bless

 

[iarwain]

What evidence do you have supporting this accusation.

What do you call it when teachers teach the gender unicorn and teach the idea that you can choose your gender? The activists have been recruiting more LGBTQ people for some time now. There was a recent study showing that there are fewer Gen Z identifying as other than cisgender now than there were a few years ago? Disney has said they put queer content into their product for children intentionally. Look at any Hollywood product, they are frequently including gay couples, gay sex scenes, and the like. All part of the "woke" agenda. The kids are responding to the culture around them. Garbage in, garbage out.

I've had friends (seems to be women mainly) who have "gone lesbian", swearing off men, only to later refute lesbianism because they found a guy they wanted to be with. I'm not saying some kids aren't born that way, but clearly for others it is a choice. Particularly since the humanist culture pushes it.

 

[Fantine]

If only Charlie Kirk and most conservatives were 10% as focused on Jesus' "thou shalts" (Matthew 5) as they are on condemning others for committing one or two "shalt nots."

They have a distorted image of God's will, perfected in Jesus' teachings.

 

[Yarddog]

According to Scripture faith does not void the law Rom3:31

I never implied that it did.

no Scripture says the law was added because of lack of faith and I certainly do not see Scripture posted to support your assertion.

No scripture refutes it either but one must read all scripture leading up to the giving of the law to understand.

Where there is no law there is no sin Rom4:15

These verses have nothing to do with Cain. Read all in context.

Cain knew it was sin to kill Abel and thou shalt not murder came from the Ten Commandments. Exo 20:1-17

Are you claiming that the 10 were written down before Mt. Sinai? No, man should have known what to do if they had faith, such as Abraham.

Yes I wonder as well.

Because many Christians don't understand faith.

Love is summed up by keeping God's commandments Exo 20:6 1John5:2-3 rebellion and sin is breaking them 1John2:4 Heb3:7-19

If one lets go of the need to obey the 10 and would surrender to the Holy Spirit, that Spirit would do the work and change Man's spirit.

He said he obeyed God's commandments where does it say the Ten Commandments are not God's

Who said that they weren't? Abraham, though, didn't have to look at a stone tablet to understand God's will. When God's Spirit told him do respond, he did.

,Are you saying you know better than He?

No, I am saying that I am baptized in God's Holy Spirit and I follow that Spirit and not what some man says.

Yes they did, because they disobeyed God, which is rebellion sin and unbelief Heb3:7-19 what we are told not to follow in their same path of disobedience Heb4:11

Yes. They failed to trust God and rebelled and died in the wilderness.

Faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31

Yes but if you have to look at those laws, in order to obey God, you are lacking if faith. The early Church was called "the Way" because Jesus is the way, while the Jews proclaimed the Law as theirs.

The fruits of the spirit and the law of God works in tandem, not against. Just as Jesus taught Mat5:19-30.

Again, do you need the Law to do God's will?

Just a small example:
Psa 119:165 Great peace have those who love Your law,
And [a]nothing causes them to stumble.

Then don't stumble but pray if you do, that you the blood of the cross is upon yo

I am happy to provide a detailed Bible study on this if I thought it will help. If so, let me know.

God bless

I don't need a detailed Bible study to obey God. His Holy Spirit understands the truth.

God bless and surrender to the Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you claiming that the 10 were written down before Mt. Sinai? No, man should have known what to do if they had faith, such as Abraham.

They were given before Mt Sinai here is an example of it

Exo 16:26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? So who is going to tell God the Ten Commandments are not His commandments? That doesn't seem like an example of faith when He claimed them as His Exo20:6 Deut4:13. Do we really know better?

God told us when His commandments existed right in the Ten Exo20:11. My faith is in what He says, not man. We are warned not to be cheated Col2:8 why we need to study the Bible for ourselves and not listen to modern day preachers.

If one lets go of the need to obey the 10 and would surrender to the Holy Spirit, that Spirit would do the work and change Man's spirit.

So in your opinion, the Holy Spirit who wrote the Ten Commandments is leading man away from only worshipping God, away from keeping His name used in a holy manner, away from man murdering and stealing from each other?
I have learned its impossible to reason with someone who uses their words only as a means to an argument on what the Bible teaches. Thanks, but I will just leave as agree to disagree and everything with sort itself in God's time.

 

[Yarddog]

They were given before Mt Sinai here is an example of it

Exo 16:26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

Did you even read Exodus 16? Is not God speaking directly to Moses and telling him what to tell Israel? There is nothing showing that God gave his Commandments, to be written down before Moses went up the mountain to get them

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did you even read Exodus 16? Is not God speaking directly to Moses and telling him what to tell Israel? There is nothing showing that God gave his Commandments, to be written down before Moses went up the mountain to get them

I never said they were written before Mt. Sinai but they were given clearly before they were codified.

 

[peaceful-forest]

So this is what I want to ask you: Do you discount Leviticus 20? Do you think that God would never have said this? Do you think Leviticus 20:13 is the result of an "ancient mistranslation"? It seems pretty clear to me. As I've said, I have no problem with these verses, far be it from me to tell God how to conduct HIs business. The penalties are rough, true, but the wages of sin are death. You don't get much rougher than that. God has high standards, and only accepts perfection. Which is why we all need His son.

I'm just asking because it seems there are so many in the modern world who simply can't accept that there could be such violent consequences for breaking God's law. Or that certain things would even be in God's law.

Leviticus 20:13 is no "ancient mistranslation". The New Testament also talks bad about homosexuality.

God stated that he made humans male and female. He created heterosexuality. Homosexuality goes against His creation.

I believe homosexuality is a clever tactic from the Devil to get people away from God.

 

[Yarddog]

I never said they were written before Mt. Sinai but they were given clearly before they were codified.

Nothing says codified. God spoke to Moses and commanded him what to do. Those were his commandments

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nothing says codified. God spoke to Moses and commanded him what to do. Those were his commandments

The Ten Commandments are whose commandments?

 

[Yarddog]

The Ten Commandments are whose commandments?

God's and they become commandments when he speaks them which didn't see that command until Exodus 16.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God's and they become commandments when he speaks them which didn't see that command until Exodus 16.

Not according to God, they came much sooner Exo20:11 they predated Moses, why God claimed them as His commandments Exo20:6 they sit under His mercy seat Exo25:21 and are in heaven Rev11:19 Rev15:5

 

[Fervent]

This does not negate the fact that He deliberately broke the law. Perfect example of what is meant by " weightier ".

As with the Leviticus passages, context matters. Jesus did not deliberately break the law in John 8, but prevented it from being broken through false testimony. When Jesus said "he who is without sin," he had a specific sin in mind and it takes understanding the legal procedures of Torah to understand what happened there. The person who throws the first stone in a case like the woman caught in adultery is her accuser, and through throwing the first stone was testifying to the guilt of the accused at risk of being cut off by God. The one throwing the stone was saying they personally witnessed the act of adultery, which if the men's statement about her being caught in the act were true they would have been in full rights to do so. There certainly wouldn't have been any consciousness of general guilt or a need for perfection to participate in the legal action, so when Jesus said "he who is without sin" what he was saying is if you can make that accusation without lying then throw the stone. He called their bluff, and evaded their trap. And in doing so prevented the law from being broken.

As for Leviticus, the book is about how to prevent contamination of the land so it doesn't vomit the people up and is principally dealing with religious practices. Its various bans must be understood in reference to the religious practices of the Canaanites and the social implications within the ancient near east's hierarchy. We cannot simply hold them up as universal dictates, we have to work through the context.