• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
7,790
3,928
✟309,126.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
God may say that all these people are culpably ignorant, but except perhaps for the auditor, it's not likely to help guide their decision-making.
So do you then conclude that no act of decision-making can ever be helped, except for rare cases such as the auditor's?
 
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,648
4,486
64
Southern California
✟68,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
What is the relation between belief and moral culpability? Is it wrong to believe/not-believe certain things?

Is it wrong to believe X if a more thorough investigation would show that X is false? In other words, do we have a moral obligation to do as thorough an investigation as possible before accepting the truth/falsity of X? If so, how would we know when our investigation is sufficiently thorough?

I assume the answer may differ depending on the belief in question. Beliefs that lead to right/wrong actions will clearly have a moral component. But what about beliefs regarding evolution or that the earth is flat/spherical?

Do we have a moral obligation to seek the truth? I'm not sure that we do. Is it wrong to believe what is false?

Please avoid theological subjects such as whether one is morally culpable for belief/non-belief in God since such subjects are not allowed in this forum. I know that's a big ask, but I believe we can do it! Maybe I'm wrong in so believing, i.e., such a belief is false, but is it morally wrong for me to so believe?
When I was a child, I assumed people chose what they believed. Then I grew up.

Here is the problem:

1. Our senses are not entirely accurate. Our eyes, ears, etc., don't always work the way they should and there are many things that exist for which we have no ability to sense.

2. Our perception is not completely reliable either. Perception is the ability to properly interpret sensory data. Even if our bodies are functioning as designed we make mistakes. Optical illusions are well known, as are hallucinations, and these things are far more common than people want to think. Do you realize just how common it is for people to not quite hear a word, and insert the wrong word into the blank spot?

3. Contrary to popular thinking, human beings are incredibly irrational creatures. We have inherited biologically ingrained cognition errors that literally block us from reaching accurate conclusions: confirmation bias, primacy effect, projection, need for closure, illusion of control.... I could probably list 30 different cognitive distortions that keep us from the truth.

IMHO, it's a miracle that human beings can function as well as we do.

Do I think we have a moral imperative to try to find the truth? Yes. But I would say we have just as strong a moral imperative to humbly realize just how fallible we are, and to extend grace to those who are "wrong," because after all, that wrong person could be us.

I am not Christian, and quite frankly I find the Christian notion that God will eternally reward or eternally torture someone due solely to their honest errors seems morally outrageous to me. It would be the worst sort of injustice to punish a person for something that is beyond their control. And folks, that's just not the God I love and serve.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Another Perspective
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,344
11,954
Space Mountain!
✟1,412,741.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When I was a child, I assumed people chose what they believed. Then I grew up.

Here is the problem:

1. Our senses are not entirely accurate. Our eyes, ears, etc., don't always work the way they should and there are many things that exist for which we have no ability to sense.

2. Our perception is not completely reliable either. Perception is the ability to properly interpret sensory data. Even if our bodies are functioning as designed we make mistakes. Optical illusions are well known, as are hallucinations, and these things are far more common than people want to think. Do you realize just how common it is for people to not quite hear a word, and insert the wrong word into the blank spot?

3. Contrary to popular thinking, human beings are incredibly irrational creatures. We have inherited biologically ingrained cognition errors that literally block us from reaching accurate conclusions: confirmation bias, primacy effect, projection, need for closure, illusion of control.... I could probably list 30 different cognitive distortions that keep us from the truth.

IMHO, it's a miracle that human beings can function as well as we do.

Do I think we have a moral imperative to try to find the truth? Yes. But I would say we have just as strong a moral imperative to humbly realize just how fallible we are, and to extend grace to those who are "wrong," because after all, that wrong person could be us.

I am not Christian, and quite frankly I find the Christian notion that God will eternally reward or eternally torture someone due solely to their honest errors seems morally outrageous to me. It would be the worst sort of injustice to punish a person for something that is beyond their control. And folks, that's just not the God I love and serve.

Your comments here are wonderful and all, but I wouldn't call that last point you made a 'Christian notion' if it's not something that Jesus Christ Himself, or His apostles and immediate disciples, mentioned.

Just something to think about where Hermeneutical acumen is an important part of reading and understanding either the Tanakh or the New Testament. I'm sure we have some concurrence in sentiments about this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fervent
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
7,605
3,509
45
San jacinto
✟224,412.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When I was a child, I assumed people chose what they believed. Then I grew up.

Here is the problem:

1. Our senses are not entirely accurate. Our eyes, ears, etc., don't always work the way they should and there are many things that exist for which we have no ability to sense.

2. Our perception is not completely reliable either. Perception is the ability to properly interpret sensory data. Even if our bodies are functioning as designed we make mistakes. Optical illusions are well known, as are hallucinations, and these things are far more common than people want to think. Do you realize just how common it is for people to not quite hear a word, and insert the wrong word into the blank spot?

3. Contrary to popular thinking, human beings are incredibly irrational creatures. We have inherited biologically ingrained cognition errors that literally block us from reaching accurate conclusions: confirmation bias, primacy effect, projection, need for closure, illusion of control.... I could probably list 30 different cognitive distortions that keep us from the truth.
All of this is true, there are factors that play into what we believe or don't believe that are not within our control. But the issue isn't quite as black and white as entirely voluntary or beyond our control, and the choices we make often accumulate into the things that we believe to be true.
IMHO, it's a miracle that human beings can function as well as we do.

Do I think we have a moral imperative to try to find the truth? Yes. But I would say we have just as strong a moral imperative to humbly realize just how fallible we are, and to extend grace to those who are "wrong," because after all, that wrong person could be us.
Again, it's not an all-or-nothing issue. We can hold firm to convictions about what we think to be our best approximation of truth while recognizing that these convictions are not purely a product of our own intellect or ethical character or some other quality that sets us apart. Yet we remain culpable for the choices that aggregate into our beliefs.
I am not Christian, and quite frankly I find the Christian notion that God will eternally reward or eternally torture someone due solely to their honest errors seems morally outrageous to me. It would be the worst sort of injustice to punish a person for something that is beyond their control. And folks, that's just not the God I love and serve.
You seem to be hanging what to my understanding is a vocal minority position as the normative Christian position. There is a wide array of understanding that falls within orthodox Christian conversation on such matters, even arguably extending to a form of universalism where through Christ all of humanity(and in fact all of creation) is delivered from sin and death. While it is not a position I agree with or believe fits within orthodoxy, there is room for discussion on the matter such that your characterization of such a notion as "the Christian notion" is uncharitable and not reflective of the diversity of thought within Christianity.
 
Upvote 0