The law, the commandments, and Christians.

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't know why, since Jesus is God. And yes, that union or communion is a state of justice/righteousness. It removes us from the unjust alienation from Him that Adam initiated for humankind. This is basic Christianity. And turning seriously back to the flesh marks a point of not remaining in Him; it certainly isn't a mark of His child.

So, I'm confused with your answers. A few minutes ago, you argued that nothing we have in Christ hinges on His presence. Instead, you argued that He gave us a state of justice which slowly fades away if we don't choose to faithfully execute our responsibilities. Now, you want to say that all the benefits of Christ living in us are gone the instant He exits our hearts?

 

[Abraham1st]

So, I'm confused with your answers. A few minutes ago, you argued that nothing we have in Christ hinges on His presence. Instead, you argued that He gave us a state of justice which slowly fades away if we don't choose to faithfully execute our responsibilities. Now, you want to say that all the benefits of Christ living in us are gone the instant He exits our hearts?

no confusion, no arguing/debate.


1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

[fhansen]

no confusion, no arguing/debate.


1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Well, for your sake it's a relief to know that you're not debating anyone here. Or calling anyone a liar which would be quite ridiculous. . But maybe you're just one of those who truly has the higher moral ground.

 

[fhansen]

So, I'm confused with your answers. A few minutes ago, you argued that nothing we have in Christ hinges on His presence. Instead, you argued that He gave us a state of justice which slowly fades away if we don't choose to faithfully execute our responsibilities. Now, you want to say that all the benefits of Christ living in us are gone the instant He exits our hearts?

Grace is necessary for everything, whether turning to Him to begin with or remaining in Him or growing in Him, in His likeness. If we remain in Him and He and us, we'll produce much good fruit and the life of grace will become stronger in us yet. But grace can be resisted, by His discretion, for our highest good. The will of man, again, is never taken out of the equation. We can, again, fail to persevere, fail to remain in Him, fail to live by the Spirit. And that's why we're warned against those things. Those who persevere, again, will prove themselves to have been good soil.

 

[The Liturgist]

love works no ill


Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I would not dispute for one second that love works no ill. God, who is love, in the person of Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father and the incarnate Logos, having put on our human nature even as the fullness of the Godhead dwelled in him bodily, so that we could finally see God and live, died on the Cross in order to show us what it means to be human, and in so doing intentionally trampled down death by death, becoming the first fruits of the Resurrection so that we, through Faith in HIm, will rise again, and enjoy the hope of participation in the Life of the World to Come, for which God in the person of the Holy Spirit works to prepare us through His uncreated Grace, by lifting us up and allowing us to become by Grace what Christ is by nature - Theosis, or as John Wesley called it, Entire Sanctification.

Rather, it seems to me your definition of what Faith in Christ constitutes is minimalistic and ignores much of the New Testament - for example, what our Lord said and what the Apostles said in Acts and the epistles, including St. Paul, and also what St. James said, about what a living faith in Christ looks like - it is more than mere intellectual assent. For example, consider Matthew 28:19, which talks about the baptism of nations, not merely the cultivation of an intellectual faith, or John ch. 6 and 1 Corinthians ch. 11 (and corresponding pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels, that is to say, Matthew, Mark and Luke) vis a vis Holy Communion, which is described in language that causes it to appear an essential element of faith - certainly the early church treated it as such, as @fhansen or my fellow Orthodox friend @prodromos can confirm - indeed we have the Didache, most likely written in the late first century, with an excerpt from an early Eucharistic liturgy.

And elsewhere in 1 Corinthians, St. Paul talks about how our salvation is the result our being grafted onto the Body of Christ - the Church, however one defines it (for example the Church can be defined using the local church ecclesiology of many Baptists and Congregationalists which defines each local church as THE Church, sometimes Eucharistically as in the case of the more liturgical, high church portions of the Stone/Campbell Movement such as the Christian Church, or using the branch ecclesiology favored by many Anglicans, and also the Assyrian Church of the East, some Oriental Orthodox (particularly Armenians), and the Old Catholics such as the Polish National Catholic Church, which broke communion with Rome in the 19th century over the issue of Papal Infallibility being adopted at Vatican I, or using the orthopraxis ecclesiology espoused by Martin Luther, or the invisible church ecclesiology favored by many Protestants, or the Roman Catholic idea of the Church as those in communion with the Bishop of Rome, or the Eastern Orthodox and prevailing Oriental Orthodox view of a visible Communion of local churches existing in continuity with the faith handed down from the Apostles through the Fathers of the Early Church and defended by the Ecumenical Synods (which actually has some resemblance to the Local Church ecclesiology, particularly the more Eucharistic varieties, albeit with the Eucharistic communion of the churches more clearly defined and more obviously visible).

 

[The Liturgist]

That explains it. You think oneness with God is living in "a state of justice" which was created by remission of sin and a new heart and spirit with which we can overcome sin and be holy. You think we stay in that state of justice by not sinning too seriously, and if we do, then we remain near to God, His holiness, and His love.

From a Roman Catholic or Orthodox perspective, its not a question of how severely we sin, because the forgiveness of Christ is infinite - rather the danger is to reject the grace of Christ outright, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by purposefully abandoning the faith as a matter of informed choice, driven by misotheistic principles.

I rather like what CS Lewis had to say on this point, that the gates of Hell are locked on the inside. God gives us the choice as to whether or not to love Him, including the freedom to change our mind, since if He forced us to love Him the act of loving Him would not be as meaningful. Of course since we are not Pelagians, it is God who accomplishes our salvation through His uncreated Grace, but we can reject the Holy Spirit and if we keep on doing that throughout our entire life, it becomes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is eschatologically inadvisable.

 

[HIM]

Oh I got the point you were trying to make, but since you based it on a cliche that was literally inapplicable to the name of Christ, and since the point is also theologically questionable, I felt obliged to explain the problem with it.

No, I made it. Glaciations 220 that’s a good place for you to start so you think it’s a cliché.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, I made it. Glaciations 220 that’s a good place for you to start so you think it’s a cliché.

Except there is an “I” in Christ, both in terms of orthography across multiple languages, and in a theological, soteriological and eschatological context.

 

[linux.poet]

Jesus said, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
If the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.



Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ezek 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.



Yes we are not to throw His pearls to the swine. Let God be the Judge. As for now after the 2nd or 3rd admonition we will reject and kick the dust from our heals.

Given that this is the third admonition , I'm going to drop this discussion after this post. However, repetition of an unsound hermeneutic doesn't make it work. Yes, we are to teach and admonish one another.

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

That has nothing to do with all of the hermeneutical problems I highlighted in previous posts with this interpretation of Acts that have been ignored as said interpretation of Acts has been repeated.

On the other hand, this interpretation expressed here has been applied to an online forum debate, to a mere difference of opinion, and stated that a believer in Christ must participate in an argument or else be in sin. The argument presented was that this post contains a grave theological error that another user would be responsible for warning them about, and then, by choosing not to do so, they are walking in sin. If one would look, there is an existing conversation between those two members before the member chooses not to argue. 2nd or 3rd admonition? And if the post contained some error for someone to warn them about, could we not warn them ourselves? What makes it so that another has to do it? Did he see the error? Do you have proof that he saw it?

Not to mention the fact that there is a clear difference in the Scriptures between the watchman's warning and arguing or quarreling, and I already posted an extensive amount of Scripture against arguing.

And if I am to play the role of Watchman myself, I have witnessed, personally and recently, how improper hermeneutics lead to bad behavior. I would advise to turn from this hermeneutic due to its numerous flaws and adopt a better understanding that leads to better outcome than accusing your brother Christian of wrongdoing in front of everyone.

Except there is an “I” in Christ, both in terms of orthography across multiple languages, and in a theological, soteriological and eschatological context.

Hmm.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If there is an I, it is "I am a new creation in Christ", not a justification for pride. I think you're reading too much into a concession to my viewpoint, it's just a way of saying that there isn't room for pride.

 

[linux.poet]

Jesus said, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
If the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.



Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Ezek 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take [any] person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.



Yes we are not to throw His pearls to the swine. Let God be the Judge. As for now after the 2nd or 3rd admonition we will reject and kick the dust from our heals.

Given that this is the third admonition , I'm going to drop this discussion after this post. However, repetition of an unsound hermeneutic doesn't make it work. Yes, we are to teach and admonish one another.

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

That has nothing to do with all of the hermeneutical problems I highlighted in previous posts with this interpretation of Acts that have been ignored as said interpretation of Acts has been repeated.

On the other hand, this interpretation expressed here has been applied to an online forum debate, to a mere difference of opinion, and stated that a believer in Christ must participate in an argument or else be in sin. The argument presented was that this post contains a grave theological error that another user would be responsible for warning them about, and then, by choosing not to do so, they are walking in sin. If one would look, there is an existing conversation between those two members before the member chooses not to argue. 2nd or 3rd admonition? And if the post contained some error for someone to warn them about, could we not warn them ourselves? What makes it so that another has to do it? Did he see the error? Do you have proof that he saw it?

Not to mention the fact that there is a clear difference in the Scriptures between the watchman's warning and arguing or quarreling, and I already posted an extensive amount of Scripture against arguing.

And if I am to play the role of Watchman myself, I have witnessed, personally and recently, how improper hermeneutics lead to bad behavior. I would advise to turn from this hermeneutic due to its numerous flaws and adopt a better understanding that leads to better outcome than accusing your brother Christian of wrongdoing in front of everyone.

Except there is an “I” in Christ, both in terms of orthography across multiple languages, and in a theological, soteriological and eschatological context.

Hmm.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If there is an I, it is "I am a new creation in Christ", not a justification for pride. I think you're reading too much into a concession to my viewpoint, it's just his way of saying that there isn't room for pride.

 

[Guojing]

No, in verse 1 he mentions Israel, they are not the subject. The letter is all whom be in Rome (see 1:7). The subject is faith in general. The faith the just live by, which establishes the Law.
This faith according to the context Israel as a whole did not have. (see 9:30-33). The Gentiles were living the righteousness which is of faith that establishes the Law (see 9:30). This is the context

Chapter 10 describes what this faith is that Israel was not experiencing.. It says The word is nigh unto you in verse 8. The You are the all that be in Rome to which the letter is was being written. That would be Jew and Gentile.

Verse 8 continues to speak on this faith the gentiles where living by the establishes the law and says that it is in their hearts and in their mouths. And closes that statement with, that is the word of faith in which they preach.

Which means the word being in our hearts is the faith through Christ. The changed heart is the faith which the just live by and establishes the law, Because it it believes unto righteousness. as verse 10 states.
.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To keep this discussion focused, since you are no longer using Romans 6-8 as stated in your earlier post we were discussing, but have changed your chapters to Romans 9-11.

Which part Romans 9-11 says we gentiles in the Body of Christ can now claim the promises and covenants that belong to Israel?

Remember what I said about Romans 9:4?

 

[Abraham1st]

should we discuss whats letter and kills, or faith which makes alive, this is not to those appointed to destruction, but those to life. My new thread is of interest for those who choose life.

 

[HIM]

Except there is an “I” in Christ, both in terms of orthography across multiple languages, and in a theological, soteriological and eschatological context.

Not I but Christ. For we are or we are dead but alive, yet not us but Christ Lives in us, and the Life we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

He supplies the Spirit and works power in us through the hearing of this Faith of Christ. Even as Abraham believed by the God and it added up unto righteousness. Even so we who are out of the hearing of this faith of Christ are sons of God, living by the faith of Christ.

Because we who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor freeman, male nor female, Scott or Liturgist. We are all one in Christ having been baptized into Christ, The circumcision made without hands, in the putting off the body of sin, the flesh. All we are and our affections and lusts. Having cleansed our Conscience, who we are from dead works, acts that cause death; sin, so we can serve the Living God. Risen with Him through the Faith and operation of God. Yet not us, but Christ Jesus and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the hearing, the listening to the faith of Christ. Walking by this, His Spirit and not by the flesh, who we were. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us, being made free from sin, and free we are indeed, we became the servants of righteousness.

Knowing that a man is not justified out of the works of the law, IF NOT out of the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed INTO Jesus Christ, that we might be justified through the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. For the Just shall live out of this faith. This faith that establishes the Law. For the word is in our heart and mouth, that is the faith in which we preach. And that believes unto righteousness.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Grace is necessary for everything, whether turning to Him to begin with or remaining in Him or growing in Him, in His likeness. If we remain in Him and He and us, we'll produce much good fruit and the life of grace will become stronger in us yet. But grace can be resisted, by His discretion, for our highest good. The will of man, again, is never taken out of the equation. We can, again, fail to persevere, fail to remain in Him, fail to live by the Spirit. And that's why we're warned against those things. Those who persevere, again, will prove themselves to have been good soil.

Is there a reason you do not want to address the residency of Christ in a person's heart and the multitude of things that are wholely dependent on His presence?

 

[fhansen]

Is there a reason you do not want to address the residency of Christ in a person's heart and the multitude of things that are wholely dependent on His presence?

Well, I did address it, no? This is the union with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit entered into as we turn to Him in faith.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

From a Roman Catholic or Orthodox perspective, its not a question of how severely we sin, because the forgiveness of Christ is infinite - rather the danger is to reject the grace of Christ outright, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, by purposefully abandoning the faith as a matter of informed choice, driven by misotheistic principles.

I rather like what CS Lewis had to say on this point, that the gates of Hell are locked on the inside. God gives us the choice as to whether or not to love Him, including the freedom to change our mind, since if He forced us to love Him the act of loving Him would not be as meaningful. Of course since we are not Pelagians, it is God who accomplishes our salvation through His uncreated Grace, but we can reject the Holy Spirit and if we keep on doing that throughout our entire life, it becomes blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is eschatologically inadvisable.

I wasn't puting words in his mouth, I was paroting back to him his concept of sinning too seriously...

if we don't seriously return to the flesh

There are many views on the unpardonable sin. But none that have been postulated satisfy me completely. The most acceptable one is that it is stiff-arming the Spirit of God. And it is unpardonable because if you reject Him as He is drawing you to Christ for salvation, there is no way possible to overcome that.

 

[fhansen]

Now, you want to say that all the benefits of Christ living in us are gone the instant He exits our hearts?

I’m trying to understand your position here. Jesus is our peace, our justice, our righteousness. Man’s state of justice/righteousness is wholly dependent upon his union with Him. We lose the state of justice that faith establishes us in if He is gone, just as Adam lost it the moment he was alienated from Him at the Fall.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

no confusion, no arguing/debate.


1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

I'm not sure what you're saying.

 

[fhansen]

I wasn't puting words in his mouth, I was paroting back to him his concept of sinning too seriously...

The questions beg to be honestly asked, and answered:
1) Do believers still continue to sin ?
2) Can a believer sin wantonly, egregiously, persistently and still expect to make it to heaven?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I’m trying to understand your position here. Jesus is our peace, our justice, our righteousness. Man’s state of justice/righteousness is wholly dependent upon his union with Him. We lose the state of justice that faith establishes us in if He is gone, just as Adam lost it the moment he was alienated from Him.

Here is the list of things again...

• We are one with the Father and the Son (Jn 17:22),
• We are in Him and He is in us (Jn 17:23),
• We are joined to the Lord and are one Spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17),
• We have eternal life because life is in Jesus and Jesus is in us (1 Jn 5:11–12),
• We shall not come into judgement because we have passed from death into life (Jn 5:24),
• With an unveiled face, we behold the glory of the Lord and are transformed into the same image (2 Co 3:18),
• We who have the firstfruits of the Spirit groan within ourselves, and eagerly await our adoption (Ro 8:23),
• We earnestly desire clothing from above and have the Spirit as a guarantee (2 Co 5:1–5),
• We have the mind of Christ (1 Co 2:16),
• We have come to know Him because He lives in our hearts (Jn 14:19-23),
• He will never leave us or forsake us (Heb 13:5), and
• We are partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4).

If you look closely, all these things (and this is not a complete list) are true for a person only if Jesus is residing in that person's heart. If Jesus is in there, all these things are true for him. If Jesus is not in there, none of these things are true for him.

So, we are on the same page that all these things are wholey dependent on Christ Jesus residing in our hearts? "Wholely dependent" means each one of these things is true for us if Jesus lives in us, and none of these things are true for us if He does not live in us.

If we're on the same page on these items, then we can move forward to the question of what may drive Christ out of our hearts.