Men now surpass women in church attendance, especially among Gen X, millennials: Barna

[timothyu]

There's a difference between being willing to serve, and being willing to have your energy co-opted to misdirected ends.

Yes, serve the Father, not man's concepts of what churches or life should be.

 

[johansen]

And here one would think that if following Jesus and the will of the Father is about servitude, females would fit right in, having lived that life since the beginning.

Except they have not been for some time now and society is beginning to adapt to that change.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Given the state of men it isn’t surprising to see them returning to church. People frequently do so when they’re suffering and when you compare the data you see the opposite among women. They’re progressing and moving away from traditional institutions and values to some degree. That’s why we see a correlating increase in education, entrepreneurship, intentional singleness and childfree ideals. Which led to the prediction that 45% of women will be single by 2030 and there’s a reciprocal effect on men. Nearly half will be unattached and will require the church’s support and they’re in the right place.

@ThisIsMe123 add this to your list. ;-)

~bella

Thank you for thinking of me, hon.

 

[bèlla]

Absolutely not.

There is a saying, eat the meat, spit out the bones. It goes for everything, catholic vs protestant heresies too.

I’m familiar with the concept and do my share of gleaning. But there’s a difference between doing that in a position of favor and attempting the same when you’re downtrodden. Most of the men viewing red pill content are the latter. They’re struggling relationally and looking for answers the community provides.

I’ve been acquainted with someone from that world for more than twenty years. He’s one of the early voices on the subject before it was established. And while I can articulate his position well you wouldn’t know it. The message never took root but that doesn’t mean I’m oblivious.

Men can learn a lot from various christian authors, but with regard to improving yourself to attract a better woman, its just the flesh.

and women must resist it too, but very few pastors dare speak against the games women play. My late friend and i had long conversations about this. What is missing is love.

Whenever you spend the bulk of your energy on another person’s failings you’ve lost. If people would devote their time to their betterment nature would do the rest. Many of the people struggling never learned what appeals to the opposite sex or otherwise. They assumed a job and belief in God was enough and discovered they’re wrong.

Men and women are equally flawed. If you’re rooted in the word you’ll avoid them.

~bella

 

[timewerx]

Christian gender roles are hugely misinterpreted from Biblical teachings. I've been talking about this for some time now.

Perhaps Christian women consciously or subconsciously are finally sensing something is wrong with the church and leaving as consequence.

God did not originally intended Eve to be submissive to Adam. It was **punishment** for her sin which Jesus in the new covenant have lifted.

Jesus did not talk about the matter but Jesus had female disciples.... This is something the Pharisees would not have permitted under their tradition but Jesus did.

Paul seemingly "returned" the "curse" of Eve upon women but this is keep them in order against the judging eyes of the Pharisees and the Roman Empire who treated their women as "third class citizens".

Our modern society that is now more egalitarian than ever aligns more with Christ's values. Nobody's judging women anymore unless you live in Saudi Arabia.

The teachings of Paul on women being submissive to husbands only applies in places where society still discriminates women like in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

If the church would just be willing to recognize and correct their mistakes and let tradition take a back seat for a while. Then maybe, women might attend the church again. Jesus has always been for the Truth. It was never tradition. One of the many reasons the Pharisees were offended is because Jesus did not respect many of their traditions.

 

[bèlla]

Except they have not been for some time now and society is beginning to adapt to that change.

Service is bilateral. God never intended for one party to give and the other to receive with no reciprocity. And there’s numerous examples in the bible of men preparing food. The same holds true for child rearing. Men were given a directive on parenting women didn’t receive. Focus on the Family made an important observation I’ll paraphrase below.

Key traits that define godly manhood include courage and sacrifice. However, two overlooked traits in our culture are selflessness and self-sacrifice. Another pair of traits critical to raising boys into godly men are gentleness and humility. A humble man can acknowledge his shortcomings and strive to do better, while a gentle man can treat others kindly, following the Golden Rule.

One of the reasons we’re witnessing a shift is the absence of the qualities above.

~bella

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Women took the lead because men weren‘t interested. I’ve been in those circles for more than 20 years and mentored my share.

~bella

I agree with you that men drifted away from guiding their young ones through life and the brunt of it fell on mothers. The young ones need to be guided by both of the parents.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

In many cases, there's nothing wrong with them at all. They come into churches which are sexist, misogynistic, hostile, or downright abusive; discern the problems, realise this has nothing to do with the gospel or the reign of God, find that they have very little scope to make any real difference, and walk away, the better to use their gifts and strengths to make a positive difference elsewhere.

Some days I wonder why I haven't done the same, and I've been a priest for eleven years now...

@bèlla is right when she says something has to change.

Yes, but I believe it is the attitude that many of today's religious women learn from today's pop culture that causes them to reject Christ and the Church. They want roles in the Church that usually held by men (such as being a priest; yes, I'm Catholic and believe only a man can be a priest). Many women think that the higher callings in the Church are a power role when in actuality they are supposed to be a service role. We are called to serve one another not boss over one another. And I agree with you 100% that there are many men in the Church who want to boss over others and that is completely wrong. They are there to serve God's people. One does not have to be a priest to serve God's people.

At the same time respect the holy tradition that has been passed down through the Church all the way starting with the 12 Apostles. There are good men coming up through the Church these days who highly respect the women's role in the Church. This will continue to grow.

 

[bèlla]

Yes, but I believe it is the attitude that many of today's religious women learn from today's pop culture that causes them to reject Christ and the Church.

Most of the people who walk away from church do so because of their experiences and that’s true for men and women. When they speak on the subject you’ll notice the same and we have numerous accounts on the site. Christian women aren’t listening to Taylor and bidding God adieu. But they’ve probably outgrown it and that’s the part no one says aloud. She’s evolved. Now what?

They want roles in the Church that usually held by men (such as being a priest; yes, I'm Catholic and believe only a man can be a priest). Many women think that the higher callings in the Church are a power role when in actuality they are supposed to be a service role.

Women can build their own churches now. They don’t have to ask you to change. They have the means to do it themselves. While I understand your comment it ignores the realities of our time. I believe they’ll do it in the coming years and you’ll see a reduction in membership and revenue. Have you ever asked yourself what happens if they leave? You should.

~bella

 

[timothyu]

Except they have not been for some time now and society is beginning to adapt to that change.

The further one (male or female) moves away from servitude, the closer they get to self and have fallen back into the world and adversarial ways. That is the irony of todays movement.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

But they’ve probably outgrown it and that’s the part no one says aloud. She’s evolved. Now what?

Ah, I see what you are driving at. You are right again. Women have evolved into something different from what they use to seen for in the past. And it is very sad as a religious community that we have no idea how this newly evolved woman should play a role in the Church. Another sad thing is that when God created Man and Woman they were suppose to both care for the Garden together (maybe different roles but still equally). We've lost that but when we try to reclaim it, arguments ensue.

I am very much at a loss in finding a solution. Never ever though give up on the Church. It will guide us to the right answer. There may be big bumps in the road but God will get us over them. And we will tend to His Garden as equals together again. Even though I sometimes disagree with you, you and even Paidiske are beautiful people. God bless you both in all you do.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree with you that men drifted away from guiding their young ones through life and the brunt of it fell on mothers. The young ones need to be guided by both of the parents.

Early life is always mostly on the mothers; by the teen years, most of the raising of boys should be turned over to fathers, as well as a significant proportion of the raising of girls.

It's not all on the fathers that that doesn't happen. My wife explicitly told me to step away from our daughter. And now my daughter blames me for having been "distant."

 

[bèlla]

Ah, I see what you are driving at. You are right again. Women have evolved into something different from what they use to seen for in the past. And it is very sad as a religious community that we have no idea how this newly evolved woman should play a role in the Church. Another sad thing is that when God created Man and Woman they were suppose to both care for the Garden together (maybe different roles but still equally). We've lost that but when we try to reclaim it, arguments ensue.

Man was created for dominion. Women are awakening and embracing the parts of themselves that were hindered or repressed. We’re more than a womb, cook or housekeeper. We were meant to rule as well.

I am very much at a loss in finding a solution. Never ever though give up on the Church. It will guide us to the right answer. There may be big bumps in the road but God will get us over them. And we will tend to His Garden as equals together again. Even though I sometimes disagree with you, you and even Paidiske are beautiful people. God bless you both in all you do.

I haven’t ceased to tend the garden and know why I’m here. What were you created to do? Who were you meant to impact for the kingdom? That’s all that matters. The battle changes when you know the answer. You won’t let it go without a fight.

Thank you for the kind words and I extend the same to you.

~bella

 

[timewerx]

Man was created for dominion. Women are awakening and embracing the parts of themselves that were hindered or repressed. We’re more than a womb, cook or housekeeper. We were meant to rule as well.

The successful Nordic Model seems to prove that 50/50 male/female mix in leadership roles is the key. The Nordics kept topping the indices for quality of life, low stress, health, happiness, low crime, low/zero poverty, etc.

On the other-hand, the countries at the bottom tend to be male-dominated/majority and are the most corrupt.

Most disturbingly, countries at the bottom of these "health indices" are also the most religious which can be Christian, or Muslim majority, or other religions. In these very religious, Christian majority nations, their corrupt leaders are also Christians, even members and leaders of organized crime operating in these countries are also Christian by affiliation!

Global crime rates has been falling since more women taking leadership roles and more people leaving religion.

There's far too much correlations to dismiss that everything we're seeing is just a coincidence.

Mostly exposing the church does not know the scriptures and simply repeating the same mistakes of the people who crucified Jesus. "You'll know them by their fruits". Ultimately the gold standard, not how well they can debate scriptures.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, but I believe it is the attitude that many of today's religious women learn from today's pop culture that causes them to reject Christ and the Church.

I wouldn't agree with you at all, there. If you look at my post again, I'd say they're not rejecting Christ at all, and they're rejecting what is unhealthy and damaging in the Church.

They want roles in the Church that usually held by men (such as being a priest; yes, I'm Catholic and believe only a man can be a priest).

Vocation is a lot more complicated than what someone "wants." But I don't really want to turn this thread into a debate on women's ordination, because the problem is there just as much for women who have no such vocation.