The law, the commandments, and Christians.

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I think "union/communion/fellowship/relationship" are all related in that the final three follow from the first. Jesus said,

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (Jn 17:22–23)​

I think this speaks to what it is meant by 1 Corinthians 6:17 - "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him".

Can't and won't disagree with that as far as I can see-darn. JK

That's a good start. What if we were to add "life" to what we share in common with the Father and the Son?

• For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (Jn 5:26)
• For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (Jn 5:21)
• And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)

Having been joined to the Lord and being one spirit with Him also means we have the same life that Jesus and His Father share. And we have it because the Father gave it to us when He sent Jesus to live in our hearts. And like you said, we received Him by faith...

• Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn 5:24)

 

[Dan Perez]

That's a good start. What if we were to add "life" to what we share in common with the Father and the Son?

• For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (Jn 5:26)
• For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (Jn 5:21)
• And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)

Having been joined to the Lord and being one spirit with Him also means we have the same life that Jesus and His Father share. And we have it because the Father gave it to us when He sent Jesus to live in our hearts. And like you said, we received Him by faith...

• Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn 5:24)

AND in 1. Cor 12:13-17 says :

# 1 In verse. 13 We. are BAPTIZED. // PLACED into. ONE BODY

# 2. In. verse 15. we are. his foot

# 3 IN verse 16. we are his ear

# 4. In. verse 17. we are his eye , his sense of hearing. and his sense of of. smell

# And read verses 18-24. and I believe we are the BODY OF CHRIST !!

dan p

 

[fhansen]

That's a good start. What if we were to add "life" to what we share in common with the Father and the Son?

• For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself (Jn 5:26)
• For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (Jn 5:21)
• And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)

Having been joined to the Lord and being one spirit with Him also means we have the same life that Jesus and His Father share. And we have it because the Father gave it to us when He sent Jesus to live in our hearts. And like you said, we received Him by faith...

• Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn 5:24)

And those who persevere in remaining in Him to the end, producing good fruit, overcoming sin, doing good, will fully realize that life that begins in nascent form in the here and now. They will have shown themselves to be good soil; they will have shown that the verses you've quoted along with others actually apply to them. Until then it's all just talk.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

And those who persevere in remaining in Him to the end, producing good fruit, overcoming sin, doing good, will fully realize that life that begins in nascent form in the here and now. They will have shown themselves to be good soil; they will have shown that the verses you've quoted along with others actually apply to them. Until then it's all just talk.

I think it is more than just talk. There was a Catholic lady from Italy on this site, or maybe a different site, that seemed to speak for the Catholic Church. She corrected one person and said something like this: "Do not misrepresent Catholicism. We believe that we can know that we have eternal life right now. We just can't be sure we will possess it to the end." Is that the sentiment you are expressing here? Or are you saying there is no way to know we have His life in the here and now?

 

[fhansen]

I think it is more than just talk. There was a Catholic lady from Italy on this site, or maybe a different site, that seemed to speak for the Catholic Church. She corrected one person and said something like this: "Do not misrepresent Catholicism. We believe that we can know that we have eternal life right now. We just can't be sure we will possess it to the end." Is that the sentiment you are expressing here? Or are you saying there is no way to know we have His life in the here and now?

In Catholicism we can have a strong level of assurance, not without evidence of good fruit supporting it, but not absolute infallible certainty. That's God's province.

 

[Hawkins]

Romans 2:14
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Law (Mosaic) belongs to the Mosaic Covenant applied only to the Jews. Though except for Sabbath, the other 10 commandments are mentioned by Jesus and are part of the New Covenant. Commendments in OT serve as laws, while in the New Covenant they are teachings and commands from Jesus, in case you breakt them you given the chance to repent sincerely. Laws leave no room for repentance, you break them you are done.

Law (Mosaic) is for God to illustrate, through His own chosen people, what God's heavenly Law (applicable to angels and humans alike) could mean such that humans can have a grasp on what God's Grace could mean. Earth is an environment where you can't abide Law to survive, and faith remains the only way out. That's what the New Covenant is for. It means we would try our best to abide by, while the Covenant would save us from where failed. Law to the gentiles is,

Romans 2:15-16
They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Jesus will judge hearts/thoughts in accordance to the Law written in our hearts as our conscience, not the version which accepts homosexuality in today's world, but the original one which could be buried deep inside us. To be secured, take the New Covenant instead of putting trust to our superficial version of "conscience" (which sticks with LGBT).

(Jesus will judge hearts/thoughts - the Judgment of Covenant is a subjective judgment carried out by a fair and just God who is Jesus Christ)

 

[Soyeong]

The scripture texts say "His" commandments, as in Jesus, not moses.

Again, you have neglected to give any reason to think that His commandments are not the same as the ones that God gave to Moses, especially in light of the fact that Jesus said that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

You're not obeying Jesus if you're obeying moses.

The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement.

In fact, a person obeying moses does not know Jesus, and He does not know them.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

 

[ARBITER01]

Again, you have neglected to give any reason to think that His commandments are not the same as the ones that God gave to Moses, especially in light of the fact that Jesus said that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.


The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfillment of the promise to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement.


In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of Moses is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

We have a "new" covenant, not a re-newed one.

Jesus fulfilled the old one and buried it at the cross. With His death, He started a new one that has nothing in common with the old one.

Trying to obey moses is not obeying Jesus,.......... it's obeying moses.

This is very elementary for most born again Christians.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 2:14
When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Law (Mosaic) belongs to the Mosaic Covenant applied only to the Jews.

Romans 2:13-16 saying that only the doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, that Gentile believers are by nature doers of it, and they show that it is written on their hearts is the opposite of saying that it applies only to the Jews.

Though except for Sabbath, the other 10 commandments are mentioned by Jesus and are part of the New Covenant.

Jesus quoted Deuteronomy three times in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Deuteronomy 8:3, so he affirmed he affirmed God as being an authoritative source and we have no need for him to have specifically repeated everything that God has spoken in order to know that we should still obey God, which includes obeying what God spoke in Deuteronomy 5:12-15 in regard to keeping the Sabbath holy.

Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he hadn't repeated any laws, including keeping the Sabbath holy, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33).

Commendments in OT serve as laws, while in the New Covenant they are teachings and commands from Jesus, in case you breakt them you given the chance to repent sincerely. Laws leave no room for repentance, you break them you are done.

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, the prophets consistently called the Israelites to repent and return to obedience to it, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it was not presented as something that left no room for repentance.

Law (Mosaic) is for God to illustrate, through His own chosen people, what God's heavenly Law (applicable to angels and humans alike) could mean such that humans can have a grasp on what God's Grace could mean. Earth is an environment where you can't abide Law to survive, and faith remains the only way out. That's what the New Covenant is for. It means we would try our best to abide by, while the Covenant would save us from where failed. Law to the gentiles is,

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith and faith is not an alternative way out. We embody what we believe about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so faith is about having the right motivation for our works, not about doing something else instead. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

 

[Soyeong]

We have a "new" covenant, not a re-newed one.

Jesus fulfilled the old one and buried it at the cross. With His death, He started a new one that has nothing in common with the old one.

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the reasons he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20, and the reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify what he accomplished through the cross or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law.

Trying to obey moses is not obeying Jesus,.......... it's obeying moses.

Again, the same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement.

This is very elementary for most born again Christians.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses are not born again. In Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses.

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the reasons he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20, and the reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify what he accomplished through the cross or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather it still involves following the Mosaic Law.


Again, the same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus to turn us from our wickedness in disobedience to it, so there is no disagreement.


In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses are not born again. In Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses.

I'll have to add another to my ignore list.

 

[Soyeong]

A person of faith certainly must desire to fulfill the law but Jesus railed against law-abiders who obeyed for other, legalistic, reasons, such as the Pharisees who He called whitewashed tombs, clean on the outside while filthy on the inside in Matt 23, or like Paul in Phil 3 calling the righteousness he excelled at as a Pharisee garbage. Grace must precede and accompany and compel everything regarding this matter.

Otherwise, what do you consider the difference between the old and new covenants to be? What did Jesus accomplish? What is reconciliation between man and God all about? Why was Paul so excited about the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith, not the law, in Phil 3:9?

The Hebrew word "yada" refer to intimate relationships/knowledge gained through experience such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God's way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus and embodying His likeness through experiencing being a doer of His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) God, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life.

The problem is that someone can go through the outward motions of obeying God's law while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was graciously given in order to teach us how to embody and thus neglecting to know God and Jesus. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them does not leave room to interpret Philippians 3:8-9 as saying that God's law is rubbish and we just need to focus on knowing Christ instead. Rather, Paul has been obeying God's law, but not while being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and that is what he counted as rubbish.

Character traits are not earned as the result of our works, but rather they are embodied through our works, so God's law was not given as a way to earn righteousness or God's other character traits, but as instructions for how to embody them. We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by walking in His way. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are embodying God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by embodying His likeness through being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exact the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and it by this faith alone that we attain righteousness and the other character traits of God.

The difference between the the Mosaic and New Covenant is that the New is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6), but it still involves following God's law (Hebrews 8:10). The way to believe in what Jesus spent his ministry teaching by word and by example and in what he accomplished through the cross is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Matthew 4:15-23, Titus 2:14). The reconciliation between God and man is about embodying His likeness through being a doer of His characters traits.