Can we talk about ADHD... and such ?

[Yarddog]

Any condition that stands in the way of walking in His purpose...

It is just that ADHD is endemic and almost considered normal in 'modern' minds.

What keeps a person with ADHD from walking in His purpose?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Most of what you’ve written in this thread is nothing more than toxic, over-spiritualized nonsense that does nothing but shame people into not seeking help for legitimate medical conditions. Stop.

It takes more than anger to force me to cease sharing what Jesus has done in my life and passing that on...

Quote me where I have suggested not seeking help for medical conditions?

 

[Carl Emerson]

What keeps a person with ADHD from walking in His purpose?

Inability to concentrate, and flourish in their God given talents.

 

[RamiC]

What keeps a person with ADHD from walking in His purpose?

The question is what is ADHD?

If it is the way some of us are created, then people can walk in His purpose with it, and the obligation is on the rest of us to value them as they are.

If it is a "medical condition", then we should care like it is a disease and the scientists should seek a cure.

If it is trauma, inflicted by some choice in raising children, such as group daycare facilities, we need to know they are bad for people's brains, and stop relying on them.

If it is harm from pollution, we need to control the damage by living cleaner.

We know that some drugs work differently in people who have it, but that does not tell us even if it is some form of injury (as trauma or polution would be), a disease that fits the usual standards in medicine for a disease, or something we should nurture and appreciate as a healthy variation of human life.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Do you have anything to support your opinion here, that there is indeed any danger at all in the opinions being shared? What exactly is "over-spiritualized"? If the medical proffession have dropped a commitment to first doing no harm, and fall short of producing scientific evidence that their definition of diseases, and treatments for them, actually work, how does that constitute legitimacy for those conditions? How is anyone at all being shamed here?

Please,could we see your evidence that people are deterred from approaching Dr's because of shame caused by someone thinking that the churches are letting people down?

The shame comes from proposing that it’s the result of a spiritual condition. If it’s a spiritual condition, then it’s somehow your fault or within your power to correct just by praying harder, being more faithful, etc. ADHD is no more a spiritual condition than osteoporosis or sciatica. There may be things you can do to mitigate their effects, but the underlying cause is physiological and not within your control.

I don’t believe the medical profession has failed in the ways you’ve described, at least not systemically.

 

[RamiC]

If it’s a spiritual condition, then it’s somehow your fault or within your power to correct just by praying harder, being more faithful,

You are stating here that if Jesus Christ would or could help someone to heal that must mean the original problem is their own fault, or that it is within their own power to resolve it.

Where does the Bible support any such idea? Where does it say that no one is the victim of the sin of another? Does Jesus save Legion because he is a victim of attack? What is the basis from we supposed to see Legion as someone who should be ashamed or blamed for his original condition?

The text is below...we do not know how the man became so affected by the "impure spirit", and I am entirely failing to see Jesus requiring the man to feel shame or solve the matter alone....

They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. Mark 5 1-13 NIV

 

[RamiC]

I don’t believe the medical profession has failed in the ways you’ve described, at least not systemically.

Your accusations in post no 56 were made with no supportive evidence, your statement of faith here might be utterly honest, but it is not evidence of anything.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Your accusations in post no 56 were made with no supportive evidence, your statement of faith here might be utterly honest, but it is not evidence of anything.

None of the posts in this thread have provided any supporting evidence, except for your post 21, which misinterpreted the study it cited. That study was talking specifically about misdiagnosis by primary care doctors, not by mental health specialists like you implied. Your error would be akin to looking at the rate of cancer misdiagnoses by podiatrists and blaming inadequate oncology research instead of blaming the podiatrists' inadequate training and/or for them not staying in their lane.

 

[Yarddog]

Inability to concentrate, and flourish in their God given talents.

There is medicine to help those with ADHD to live fairly normal lives. My nephew has ADHD and is an Engineer with several degrees. That takes concentration.

Living a faithful Godly life doesn't take a lot of concentration. It takes surrendering to the Holy Spirit and letting that Spirit guide you.

 

[bèlla]

By implying the condition is a spiritual malady it’s considered an infirmity and they’re usually the result of sin from the person or their bloodline. @iluvatar5150 is correct. Whether the individual is able to resolve the problem alone or needs assistance from someone in the church. The situation would be addressed from that vantage point first which requires confession and repentance.

Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away [unnoticed] since there was a crowd in that place. Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

~bella

 

[RamiC]

None of the posts in this thread have provided any supporting evidence, except for your post 21, which misinterpreted the study it cited.

Quoting myself from post no 40, "I found a web site which supported mainstream mental health perspectives deliberately. I also looked for a place which presented the point in plain english, so anyone could read it, the articles in the BMJ and scientific reaearch papers about it prove the same point, but I am no scientist, and I did not want to limit the thread to something only people with fancy PhD's could read." and "What I am saying is there is a shortage of science in the realm of mental health, and if there was not then these clear numbers of errors would not exist. You are entirely correct that the article I linked to is not saying that, but then I was only trying to show that the proffessionals themselves know that there is an major problem with diagnostic accuracy.

Since I posted the link itself, your accusation that I wanted to misrepresent the article that I linked to seems particularly futile.

That study was talking specifically about misdiagnosis by primary care doctors, not by mental health specialists like you implied.

Where did I imply this?

Your error would be akin to looking at the rate of cancer misdiagnoses by podiatrists and blaming inadequate oncology research instead of blaming the podiatrists' inadequate training and/or for them not staying in their lane.

I do not know how it works elsewhere in the world, but in my country a GP has to think you have a mental health problem of some kind, before you can get to a psychiatrists, psychologist, or a psycholililala. (I made that last one up, before anyone accuses me of henious deliberate misrepresentation ). I do believe if there was enough real science applied to the area of mental health the horrific complexity of getting to an accurate diagnosis would not exist, years of avoidable suffering would then not exist for the patients, and with everything they are already doing as it is, we cannot realistically solve this by training every GP to be a fantastic mind specialist as well.

Of course, brain science is actually neurology, and "mind" could mean spirit for all know, because no one knows what the mind is...some world views believe it must be the brain, but that is opinion, not fact.

What I can assure you I have noticed is that you are in this thread apparently outright arguing that there is no shortfall in scientific research regarding mental health, and that it is downright "toxic" to believe that Jesus can help those who suffer. What is quite incomrehensible to me is that you do not appear to see a problem with the situation as it is. The need is obvious, the doctors are fully booked, the waiting times are months, often years, the diagnosis are unreliable, most of the best results are lifelong treatments, not cures, the bill is astronomical, however medicine is funded, and the human suffering is increasing and just going on and on.

So it would be helpful if you had some supportive evidence to back up your accusations, please feel free to post it, or a link.

 

[RamiC]

There is medicine to help those with ADHD to live fairly normal lives. My nephew has ADHD and is an Engineer with several degrees. That takes concentration.

Living a faithful Godly life doesn't take a lot of concentration. It takes surrendering to the Holy Spirit and letting that Spirit guide you.

If anyone is taking a pill and it is working out well for them, that is fine with me. Their body, their choice, and if applicable their faith still going strong, all good.

 

[RamiC]

Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away [unnoticed] since there was a crowd in that place. Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

~bella

You are quoting a different story from a different gospel.

I have posted the text and reference for Legion. Where does his story suggest a need for shame and blame?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Quoting myself from post no 40, "I found a web site which supported mainstream mental health perspectives deliberately. I also looked for a place which presented the point in plain english, so anyone could read it, the articles in the BMJ and scientific reaearch papers about it prove the same point, but I am no scientist, and I did not want to limit the thread to something only people with fancy PhD's could read." and "What I am saying is there is a shortage of science in the realm of mental health, and if there was not then these clear numbers of errors would not exist. You are entirely correct that the article I linked to is not saying that, but then I was only trying to show that the proffessionals themselves know that there is an major problem with diagnostic accuracy.

Since I posted the link itself, your accusation that I wanted to misrepresent the article that I linked to seems particularly futile.

I didn't say that your misinterpretation was deliberate, but it was there.

Where did I imply this?

You implied it when you proposed as the cause of these misdiagnoses this:
"These numbers are huge, they are error rates, and they exist because there is a significant lack of science applicable to "mental health" compared to all other medical problems."


If the rates of misdiagnoses is due to inadequate science, then that would mean that even the mental health specialists are misdiagnosing people at high rates. But that's not what the cited paper said. The paper was looking only at misdiagnoses by non-specialists and proposing better guidelines and tools for helping those non-specialist GP's improve their diagnoses. That's not an error with the science; that's an error with educating and empowering a certain set of professionals on how to use the science.

I do not know how it works elsewhere in the world, but in my country a GP has to think you have a mental health problem of some kind, before you can get to a psychiatrists, psychologist, or a psycholililala.

In the US, this is dependent upon the specifics of your health insurance plan. I have not needed a referral for mental health services, though I have needed one for other medial specialties. The study in question took place in Canada.

What I can assure you I have noticed is that you are in this thread apparently outright arguing that there is no shortfall in scientific research regarding mental health, and that it is downright "toxic" to believe that Jesus can help those who suffer. What is quite incomrehensible to me is that you do not appear to see a problem with the situation as it is.

I have argued none of this. You are inferring things that are incorrect.

 

[bèlla]

You are quoting a different story from a different gospel.

I have posted the text and reference for Legion. Where does his story suggest a need for shame and blame?

The demoniac is an exceptional case in relation to the rest. He was kept in chains and that’s unlikely for most. You’re comparing apples and oranges to make your point. The bible is silent on the root of his condition but addresses it with others.

~bella

 

[RamiC]

You’re comparing apples and oranges to make your point.

~bella

Kept in chains, described cutting himself with the edges of rocks, if we are talking about what happens in mental health wards, he is in a modern day locked ward, and he needs help because of self harm, perhaps would be deemed to have MPD. The "chains" these days would be powerful tranquilizer drugs.

He is not an exceptional case, he is just right there in the Bible being freed by Jesus, no shame or blame required.

If you think that we are only talking about ADHD, well no I do not think that Legion had ADHD (see my post 59 maybe).

 

[bèlla]

He is not an exceptional case, he is just right there in the Bible being freed by Jesus, no shame or blame required.

If you think that we are only talking about ADHD, well no I do not think that Legion had ADHD (see my post 59 maybe).

Once again you’re missing the point. If the bible wanted to expound it would have. They left out details for a reason. Whether you accept it has no bearing on its authority and pertinence in your example. Just because you believe in God doesn’t make you qualified to address medical issues based on your beliefs. You’re not a doctor. Nor is administering deliverance on par with the same.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

If it is the way some of us are created, then people can walk in His purpose with it, and the obligation is on the rest of us to value them as they are.

Some conditions we are born with can be treated successfully.

 

[RamiC]

I didn't say that your misinterpretation was deliberate, but it was there.

I used the word deliberate, I said that I deliberately chose a mainstream mental health based link.

You implied it when you proposed as the cause of these misdiagnoses this:

This is me again quoting myself from post no 40 - "What I am saying is there is a shortage of science in the realm of mental health, and if there was not then these clear numbers of errors would not exist. You are entirely correct that the article I linked to is not saying that,"
Not a hint of me misrepresenting there...surely? I said I am saying it....

"These numbers are huge, they are error rates, and they exist because there is a significant lack of science applicable to "mental health" compared to all other medical problems."

There is. I am not implying at all...just plain stating it, here is the support for my point.

"Mental disorders are largely clinical diagnoses that seldom have specific objective findings that can be detected through laboratory testing, physical examination or imaging. As such, history taking, behavioural observation and data gathering from collateral sources (eg, family members, teachers) are essential to the diagnosis. Despite the importance of effective data gathering and synthesis, time pressures, competing priorities and various cognitive biases can interfere with this process.4,6 Validated psychological tests and symptom reporting scales can help with the data gathering process, but these can lead to inaccurate diagnostic impressions if they are interpreted without sufficient context or not followed with an appropriate diagnostic interview.7 8 Finally, evolving (and in some cases, expanding) diagnostic criteria for mental disorders have prompted concerns that clinicians could inadvertently pathologise normal experiences.9 10 " link - Diagnostic error in mental health: a review - PMC

"DSM-5. The IOM report notes that psychiatric diagnoses rely on patient reports and clinician observations, rather than on objective biological tests....

The IOM report makes a strong case for devoting more attention to this crucial issue. “Improving the diagnostic process is not only possible but also represents a moral, professional, and public health imperative.”1" link -
5 Mental Health Diagnostic Challenges: Update on “To Err Is Human” | Psychiatric Times

If the rates of misdiagnoses is due to inadequate science, then that would mean that even the mental health specialists are misdiagnosing people at high rates.

Yes...links above.

By the way, as is clear from my previous posts in this thread, if we are talking about science in my opinion, that is the brain and it is called "neurology". If you are using the word "psyche" that means "mind", and it does not exsist by any truly scientific definition. Hence my belief that if we are talking about "minds", we are already short on science. I am not implying this, again just outright stating it, as my perspective.

I do not dismiss everything that is not science, I believe Jesus is alive, and conducted every unscientific miracle the Bible depicts, the many others it refers to but does not include, and can and does do things now, in 2025, which science will never, ever cotton on to. I just think it does matter which is which.

I have argued none of this. You are inferring things that are incorrect.

Now you are saying you did not argue this..."and that it is downright "toxic" to believe that Jesus can help those who suffer." That is what I am saying you did.

In the OP -

"Carl Emerson said:
At the same time, believers have access to the redemption of the soul through the Cross, including healing and deliverance - but not many seem to access this because the modern theology has moved on from these 'archaic beliefs'."

Your post 56 -

"Carl Emerson said:
Personally I think a big part of the problem is that Churches have lost touch with the healing grace available through the Cross and abdicated responsibility for the flock to 'professional services'.

Elders are not seen as the 'go to' source of healing prayer because of poor or little biblical teaching.

Your response to him is "Most of what you’ve written in this thread is nothing more than toxic, over-spiritualized nonsense"

I am under the impression that Carl Emerson would like to see more people recieve Jesus' love, grace and healing from conditions we in the modern world call "mental health problems", and that he is not ashamed to share his own beliefs about what happened to him, as a testimony to Jesus helping with such things. I am also under the impression that you believe what he is doing is toxic, over-spiritualized nonsense.

I am sorry if I have misunderstood, however, that the best I can do to explain what I thought you meant.

 

[RamiC]

Some conditions we are born with can be treated successfully.

Yes, sure, as long as they are actually problems.