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law discussions belong in the law/sabbath area, or controvertial.

SabbathBlessings

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I am reading your post but you are missing quite a bit and your interpretation is off. The covenant consists of the Ten Commandments and the law inspired and written by Moses. The tablets of stone were stored inside of the Ark while the law of Moses was store beside it. HEB. 9:1 for example tells us that the first covenant (old covenant) had regulations for worship and the sanctuary, These were part of the 613 laws, including the 10 commandments that made up what Paul calls the law.

“Now even the first covenant had regulations for divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Do again, your interpretation is off. Jesus came to fulfill the law which is the old covenant. Jesus completed (fulfilled) the terms of the old contract. He did not destroyed the contract but merely finished it. Jesus was the only one that could fulfill (complete the terms) if the old contract perfectly. No one else could. Because the old contract was finished (fulfilled) Jesus then introduced a new contract of which the terms are listed in the New Testament. Hope this helps.
There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments is its own covenant or agreement and consists of just that. God added no more after the Ten Commandments Deut 5:22 and started way before Moses. Exo20:11 The law that describes what sin is 1 John 3:4 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11 cannot be the same law that was added because of breaking the law that describes sin- it was a separate law, the prescription for sin after the fall of man.

The law of Moses is what had all the animal sacrifices and earthy sanctuary ministration through the priesthood of Levi

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; 27 for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the Lord, then how much more after my death?

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His, Exo 20:6 Deut 4:13 Moses is not God, God is not Moses. I am not sure what more God could have done to make those distinctions any clearer.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Your interpretation is off. Jesus came to fulfill the law which is the old covenant. Jesus completed (fulfilled) the terms of the old contract. He did not destroyed the contract but merely finished it. Jesus was the only one that could fulfill (complete the terms)of the old contract perfectly. No one else could.
Why don't you just stick with the Text. I understand you don't agree, nor do I with your interpretation. I show you plain Scripture, you just don't agree, but no need to get personal.

Maybe you can answer these questions

Is your opinion fulfilled means the same as destroyed i.e. no longer need to keep. Are you claiming Jesus came to destroy i.e. end His law of righteousness (right doing) Psa 119:172 that He was prophesied to magnify Isa 42:21 which means make greater, but failed that and just ended the law even through He promised not to alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18


So are you claiming that we can now worship other gods, bow to images, vain His holy name, steal, covet, commit murder or break the least of these commandments that Jesus warned not to in a couple verses down. Mat 5:19
Because the old contract was finished (fulfilled) Jesus then introduced a new contract of which the terms are listed in the New Testament. Hope this helps.


I showed you what the New Contract was established on (terms) Heb8:6 and what God promised not to alter Psa89:34 Mat5:18 why the NC still has God's laws Heb 8:10 just placed in a new location based on better promises. Because God keeps His promises. Psa 89:34 Why Jesus said quoting from this same unit of Ten not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat5:19-30 because the Ten Commandments is what sits under the mercy seat of God, not Moses revealed in heaven Exo 31:18 Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 as it is His standard of Judgement James 2:11 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 not ours. God defines His commandments Exo 20:6, Rev 14:12 Rev 22:15, not us. Best to let God be God.
 
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RandyPNW

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I’m trying to stay focused on one Scripture to see if we can make sense of what is its true meaning and if our version of Jesus saying one thing in one verse and than has Jesus says the complete opposite in couple verses down how that makes sense. I asked specific questions to this one verse, I am not going to sort through a previous long post. I just want to focus on one verse. If you don‘t want to answer my questions directly, it’s okay. Be well.
I've replied to each and every one of your Scriptures, and you still claimed I don't use Scriptures--just "opinions." I think you're trying to get out of any real discussions. I hope not?

I've now dealt with Matt 5. But you just claim I'm writing a "novel," which is obviously insulting. So, how serious are you?
 
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Hentenza

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There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments.
Nope.
The Ten Commandments is its own covenant or agreement and consists of just that.
Nope. Like the writer of Hebrews states there is more to the old covenant than just the 10.
God added no more after the Ten Commandments Deut 5:22 and started way before Moses. The law that describes what sin is 1 John 3:4 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30 James 2:11 cannot be the same law that was added because of breaking the law.
So if what you say is true then either breaking the 10 commandments is not a sin or breaking the rest of the Jewish law is not sin. This again would not be logical nor biblical. The fact is that if you break either one then that is sin because both are one and the same.
The law of Moses is what had all the animal sacrifices and earthy sanctuary ministration through the priesthood of Levi

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; 27 for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the Lord, then how much more after my death?

God claimed the Ten Commandments as His, Exo 20:6 Deut 4:13 Moses is not God, God is not Moses.
Read Hebrews again.

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice that the priesthood, tabernacle, gifts, sacrifices, etc are all part of the law and yet now, new covenant, those laws are not included instead the new covenant is enacted on better promises.

“Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care about them, says the Lord.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice here that God explains that they did not continue His covenant. This is interesting, since according to the writer of Hebrews there is more to the law than just the 10 commandments, then the covenant that they did not follow is all of the law.

Secondly, the writer of Hebrews explains that death happened for redemption of violations under the old covenant. The death is the death of Christ which atoned for the violations (sins) of the old covenant. This happened because, according to sacrificial laws, was the only way to fulfill the old covenant. So we see here that the sacrificial laws were part of the old covenant.

“For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I can keep going but this is good for now.
 
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Hentenza

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Why don't you just stick with the Text. I understand you don't agree, nor do I with your interpretation. I show you plain Scripture, you just don't agree, but no need to get personal.

Maybe you can answer these questions

Is your opinion fulfilled means the same as destroyed i.e. no longer need to keep. Are you claiming Jesus came to destroy i.e. end His law of righteousness (right doing) Psa 119:172 that He was prophesied to magnify Isa 42:21 which means make greater, but failed that and just ended the law even through He promised not to alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18


So are you claiming that we can now worship other gods, bow to images, vain His holy name, steal, covet, commit murder or break the least of these commandments that Jesus warned not to in a couple verses down. Mat 5:19
Did you not read my post? I even explained that fulfill does not mean destroy. But wait this part of your post is identical word for word from your response to another poster in your post 71 so you didn’t read my post. That’s not nice. But I’m going to reply nonetheless.

Fulfill does not means destroy, it means to complete. Jesus fulfilled (completed the terms) of the first covenant just like completing the terms of a contract. Jesus was the only person that could fulfill the old covenant perfectly otherwise the terms would not be fulfilled and a new covenant could not be issued. That is Jesus sacrifice since without the sacrifice of blood the old covenant would still be in place.

In the new covenant 9 of the Ten Commandments are part of the new contract. Those are specifically listed so your Strawman fails. We can’t now worship other gods or covet or steal, etc, than we could before. The 4th commandment was not continued in the new covenant because Jesus became the lord of the Sabbath and our rest. We now have the rest of Jesus.




I showed you what the New Contract was established on (terms) Heb8:6 and what God promised not to alter Psa89:34 Mat5:18 why the NC still has God's laws Heb 8:10 just placed in a new location based on better promises. Because God keeps His promises. Psa 89:34 Why Jesus said quoting from this same unit of Ten not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgement Mat5:19-30 because the Ten Commandments is what sits under the mercy seat of God, not Moses revealed in heaven Exo 31:18 Rev 11:19 Rev 15:5 as it is His standard of Judgement James 2:11 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 not ours. God defines His commandments Exo 20:6, Rev 14:12 Rev 22:15, not us. Best to let God be God.
You have not showed me anything that you have not posted in other posts. You are yet to post a verse from the new covenant commanding the Christian to keep the Jewish Sabbath. I challenge you to provide scripture to this effect.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Nope.

Nope. Like the writer of Hebrews states there is more to the old covenant than just the 10.

So if what you say is true then either breaking the 10 commandments is not a sin or breaking the rest of the Jewish law is not sin. This again would not be logical nor biblical. The fact is that if you break either one then that is sin because both are one and the same.

Read Hebrews again.

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice that the priesthood, tabernacle, gifts, sacrifices, etc are all part of the law and yet now, new covenant, those laws are not included instead the new covenant is enacted on better promises.

“Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care about them, says the Lord.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice here that God explains that they did not continue His covenant. This is interesting, since according to the writer of Hebrews there is more to the law than just the 10 commandments, then the covenant that they did not follow is all of the law.

Secondly, the writer of Hebrews explains that death happened for redemption of violations under the old covenant. The death is the death of Christ which atoned for the violations (sins) of the old covenant. This happened because, according to sacrificial laws, was the only way to fulfill the old covenant. So we see here that the sacrificial laws were part of the old covenant.

“For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the violations that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I can keep going but this is good for now.
You keep repeating the same things that has been addressed. The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments are not the same covenants. I do not know how much clearer these Scriptures can be.


Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Besides God's covenant was the law of Moses, not the same covenants,


Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.


2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."



Dan 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Did you not read my post? I even explained that fulfill does not mean destroy. But wait this part of your post is identical word for word from your response to another poster in your post 71 so you didn’t read my post. That’s not nice. But I’m going to reply nonetheless.

Fulfill does not means destroy, it means to complete. Jesus fulfilled (completed the terms) of the first covenant just like completing the terms of a contract. Jesus was the only person that could fulfill the old covenant perfectly otherwise the terms would not be fulfilled and a new covenant could not be issued. That is Jesus sacrifice since without the sacrifice of blood the old covenant would still be in place.

In the new covenant 9 of the Ten Commandments are part of the new contract. Those are specifically listed so your Strawman fails. We can’t now worship other gods or covet or steal, etc, than we could before. The 4th commandment was not continued in the new covenant because Jesus became the lord of the Sabbath and our rest. We now have the rest of Jesus.





You have not showed me anything that you have not posted in other posts. You are yet to post a verse from the new covenant commanding the Christian to keep the Jewish Sabbath. I challenge you to provide scripture to this effect.
So your not going to answer the questions. Fulfilled does not mean destroyed as Jesus just said and why Jesus goes on to say not to break or teach other to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten Mat 5:19-30 if He did not mean just that, Fulfilled is like fulfilling a wedding covenant. Doesn't mean one can go out and commit adultery.

Your belief that God forgot the only commandment He said to Remember and is Blessed Holy and Sanctified by God and God placed an unbiblical number in our hearts and minds. And all the Scriptures on Sabbath-keeping that was kept before and after the Cross should be discarded and Jesus is wrong about the Sabbath continuing on as promised and God was wrong He did change the words of His Covenant despite Him say He would not.

Got it.

Guess it will get sorted out soon enough.

Time to move on.
 
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Hentenza

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You keep repeating the same things that have been addressed. The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments are not the same covenants. I do not know how much clearer these Scriptures can be.
lol you are yet to show me where the 4th commandment is commanded in the new covenant. You are now deflecting. Again, I challenge you to show me from the new covenant where sabbath keeping us commanded to the Christian.
Deu 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deu 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


Besides God's covenant was the law of Moses, i\


Deu 29:1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.


2Ki 21:8 and I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers—only if they are careful to do according to all that I (God)have commanded them, and (in addition) according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."



Dan 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.
The rest of this is another random c&p of verses that are irrelevant.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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lol you are yet to show me where the 4th commandment is commanded in the new covenant. You are now deflecting. Again, I challenge you to show me from the new covenant where sabbath keeping us commanded to the Christian.

The rest of this is another random c&p of verses that are irrelevant.
You have not proved the Sabbath is not one of God's commandments when God of the Universe said it was. Deut 4:13 Exo 20:8-11 Its not up to me to disprove what God said. If you want to feel free to show where the Sabbath commandment is not one of God's commandments. He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat5:18 my faith is in His words, not mans.

Meantime, Scripture says God's people keep Gods commandments Rev 14:12 and this faith is what reconciles us Rev 22:14 The Sabbath is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. If God kept, Jesus kept who is God, it really should be a no brainer :) but we are free to follow someone else.
 
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ARBITER01

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No. You provided your interpretation of what that verse say. You keep posting verses from the Old covenant to support your theory that it appears in the new covenant. It does not. A new contract contains what is required. The provisions of the old contract do not follow to the new contract unless is clearly stipulated and it is not.

Correct.

There are no "terms" in the NT describing what aspects of the OT we are to follow under the new. There's a whole lot of folks trying to get other folks to believe what they believe, but nothing in scripture actually prescribing anything.
 
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RandyPNW

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I’m trying to stay focused on one Scripture to see if we can make sense of what is its true meaning and if our version of Jesus saying one thing in one verse and than has Jesus says the complete opposite in couple verses down how that makes sense. I asked specific questions to this one verse, I am not going to sort through a previous long post. I just want to focus on one verse. If you don‘t want to answer my questions directly, it’s okay. Be well.
As I've said, the Scripture you've been focused on has been Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mt., and the subject being the inviolability of the entire Law. So, my points were....
1) This was spoken while the Old Covenant was still in effect.
2) The New Covenant does not contain the Law.
3) The Sabbath Law is part of the Law and the Old Covenant.

You simply claim it is otherwise, that Sabbath Law and the 10 Commandments are separate from the Law of Moses. You criticize me for not using Scriptures (you claim), but what is your Scriptural text that claims the 10 Commandments are *separate* from the Law? Wherever the 10 Commandments are presented, they are presented as part of Moses' overall Law. Unless we are told otherwise, I think we must assume that.

Then, your argument seems to be that unless the 10 Commandments are part of the New Covenant there is only lawlessness. This does not follow because the moral principles contained within the 10 Commandments, excluding Sabbath Law, can be restated under the New Covenant as having been fulfilled not in us but in Christ. And we obtain his righteousness by grace, and not by obeying the Law.

It seems that you have a theology of Law--not Grace through Christ? Certainly we can keep laws through Christ, but we can never hope to be perfect or to obtain Eternal Life by that means. We are lawful when we live in Christ because that morality existed in the Law of Moses and preexisted the Law of Moses. We were created to be lawful from the time we were created in the image of God.

Since this gets too long for your interest, I'll stop here. Looking forward to a direct answer to these points, as opposed to your predetermined message on Sabbath Law.
 
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Hentenza

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So you’re not going to answer the questions. Fulfilled does not mean destroyed as Jesus just said and why Jesus goes on to say not to break or teach other to break the least of these commandments quoting from the Ten Mat 5:19-30 if He did not mean just that, Fulfilled is like fulfilling a wedding covenant. Doesn't mean one can go out and commit adultery.
Really? I did answer your question. Did you not read my post. Here was my answer from my post 85.
Fulfill does not means destroy, it means to complete. Jesus fulfilled (completed the terms) of the first covenant just like completing the terms of a contract. Jesus was the only person that could fulfill the old covenant perfectly otherwise the terms would not be fulfilled and a new covenant could not be issued. That is Jesus sacrifice since without the sacrifice of blood the old covenant would still be in place.

In the new covenant 9 of the Ten Commandments are part of the new contract. Those are specifically listed so your Strawman fails. We can’t now worship other gods or covet or steal, etc, than we could before. The 4th commandment was not continued in the new covenant because Jesus became the lord of the Sabbath and our rest. We now have the rest of Jesus.

Your belief that God forgot the only commandment He said to Remember and is Blessed Holy and Sanctified by God and God placed an unbiblical number in our hearts and minds. And all the Scriptures on Sabbath-keeping that was kept before and after the Cross should be discarded and Jesus is wrong about the Sabbath continuing on as promised and God was wrong He did change the words of His Covenant despite Him say He would not.
It’s real easy really. Show me a single verse from the New Testament that commands the Christian to keep the sabbath. You are so adamant that we have to keep the sabbath that this should be simple for you.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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As I've said, the Scripture you've been focused on has been Matt 5, the Sermon on the Mt., and the subject being the inviolability of the entire Law. So, my points were....
1) This was spoken while the Old Covenant was still in effect.
2) The New Covenant does not contain the Law.
3) The Sabbath Law is part of the Law and the Old Covenant.

You simply claim it is otherwise, that Sabbath Law and the 10 Commandments are separate from the Law of Moses. You criticize me for not using Scriptures (you claim), but what is your Scriptural text that claims the 10 Commandments are *separate* from the Law? Wherever the 10 Commandments are presented, they are presented as part of Moses' overall Law. Unless we are told otherwise, I think we must assume that.

Then, your argument seems to be that unless the 10 Commandments are part of the New Covenant there is only lawlessness. This does not follow because the moral principles contained within the 10 Commandments, excluding Sabbath Law, can be restated under the New Covenant as having been fulfilled not in us but in Christ. And we obtain his righteousness by grace, and not by obeying the Law.

It seems that you have a theology of Law--not Grace through Christ? Certainly we can keep laws through Christ, but we can never hope to be perfect or to obtain Eternal Life by that means. We are lawful when we live in Christ because that morality existed in the Law of Moses and preexisted the Law of Moses. We were created to be lawful from the time we were created in the image of God.

Since this gets too long for your interest, I'll stop here. Looking forward to a direct answer to these points, as opposed to your predetermined message on Sabbath Law.
Got it. So because Jesus lived in the "OC" according to you, we do not believe or follow His teachings, He was talking to "other people" . He is not our example to follow because He lived in the "old covenant" despite clear Scripture 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22 Heb 4:15

The New Covenant according to you, does not contain Gods Laws despite what God said the NC is Heb8:10

I’m going to place my faith in and of Jesus and His faith is demonstrated by how He lived and what He taught Rev 14:13 John 14:6

Like I said one can't reason with opinions which is all you provided yet again over the clear Scriptures. Just lay aside the teaching of Jesus, and ignore the warnings as they are for "other people" Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19 Mat7:21-23 Rev22:14-15 1John2:4 etc


John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Guess it will all get sorted out soon enough
 
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Hentenza

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You have not proved the Sabbath is not one of God's commandments when God of the Universe said it was. Deut 4:13 Exo 20:8-11 Its not up to me to disprove what God said. If you want to feel free to show where the Sabbath commandment is not one of God's commandments. He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat5:18 my faith is in His words, not mans.

Meantime, Scripture says God's people keep Gods commandments Rev 14:12 and this faith is what reconciles us Rev 22:14 The Sabbath is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord. If God kept, Jesus kept who is God, it really should be a no brainer :) but we are free to follow someone else.
But again. Provide a single verse from the New Testament that commands the Christian to keep the Sabbath. This is now quite a few times that I have asked you so what’s the problem, it should be simple for you.
 
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RandyPNW

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Got it. So because Jesus lived in the "OC" according to you, we do not believe or follow His teachings, He was talking to "other people" . He is not our example to follow because He lived in the "old covenant" despite clear Scripture 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-22 Heb 4:15
Well, if God gave a contract with someone else, it wouldn't be binding on you, would it? Even if you were told about that contract so that you can learn something about contract law, it still wouldn't apply directly to you, would it?

You completely ignore the fact the Old Covenant was given to Israel, and that Paul argued the requirements of the Law were nailed to the cross. Paul argued repeatedly that the OT Law does not apply to Christians.

This is not "opinion." This is what Paul taught and what most Christians see as his teaching. To call it "opinion" is ludicrous, since your view would be no different. Then what is your point, that you use Scripture and I don't? On the contrary, I use Scripture as much as you do. But you seem to argue against Scripture by using Scripture!

So, when I say that Jesus spoke while the Old Covenant was still in effect, what about that wasn't true? It has nothing to do with whether we can learn from what Israel experienced under the Old Covenant. The fact is, NT teaching informs us that we are *not* under the old contract, and you are very wrong to imply or argue that we are!
The New Covenant according to you, does not contain Gods Laws despite what God said the NC is Heb8:10
You've heard me explain this, but you want to remove what I said in the interest of focusing on one small Scripture, when you don't do that yourself. I said that the spirituality and the morality of God's Law preceded the Law, existed within the Law, and post-dated the Law, and is resident in the New Covenant in the form of Christ's work--not our own.

We participate in it as a free gift. But he succeeded in fulfilling it on his own such as he cannot be delegitimized or invalidated in his work. We could never claim to do that. We can only participate in it as a free gift. Following the Sabbath Law is not a free gift. It is external law which will not accomplish Eternal Life for any one of us.
Like I said one can't reason with opinions which is all you provided yet again over the clear Scriptures
I think you know that's dishonest. I've given you plenty of Scriptures, and everything you've given me is opinions, as well. Obeying the Sabbath Law will never cover over your personal sins. You need to abide in Christ for your spiritual life and Salvation.
 
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ARBITER01

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Well, if God gave a contract with someone else, it wouldn't be binding on you, would it? Even if you were told about that contract so that you can learn something about contract law, it still wouldn't apply directly to you, would it?

You completely ignore the fact the Old Covenant was given to Israel, and that Paul argued the requirements of the Law were nailed to the cross. Paul argued repeatedly that the OT Law does not apply to Christians.

Correct.

The OT was for the Judeans, not Christians. This was spelled out specifically to us by our Apostles in the 15th chapter of Acts. I don't know why anyone would ignore that, or keep trying to fight it with other scripture.
 
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RandyPNW

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Correct.

The OT was for the Judeans, not Christians. This was spelled out specifically to us by our Apostles in the 15th chapter of Acts. I don't know why anyone would ignore that, or keep trying to fight it with other scripture.
I think it's devotion to a particular tradition, with the pride that goes along with it. It's pretty plain what you say in the Bible and in Christian history.

The nice thing about arguing the Sabbath Law and things like it is it brings out the theology of Grace so well. It's not always possible to turn those hardened in their position away from their beliefs. But in arguing these things others may learn more about Christian theology and more about Grace.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Those who are looking for a commandment in the New Covenant is missing what the New Covenant is about- faith.

Why do we need an explicit commandment to obey God when He wrote His laws in our hearts. While I believe the commandment of the 4th is repeated Luke23:56 Heb4:9NIV Mat12:12 Exo20:6 1John5:3 John14:15 1John5:3 there is not an explicit commandment to not vain God's name in the NC, but I do not believe we should do so.

The Sabbath is kept all throughout the NC by Jesus and the apostles and continues on for God's saints in the New Heaven and New Earth. God said He wrote His laws in our hearts and the only change regarding His laws is the location 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 as the NC is established, meaning the whole basis, is on better promises Heb8:6 because it still has God's laws- His version, now written in the heart and mind Heb8:10 for those who cooperate John 14:15-18 we are told not everyone does Rom8:7-8 . Who defines God's laws, God or us? God could not have done so more clearly, written by God, spoken by God, His Testimony, what the whole Bible is about- the testimony of God through His prophets and disciples, yet when it comes to God's own Testimony Exo 31:18 He promised not to alter Psa89:34, people cast it aside. This is not an example of faith.

I guess all will get sorted out in God's own time. I wish you all well.

I am going to sign out of this thread for now as we have exhausted this conversation.

Please take care.
 
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RandyPNW

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Those who are looking for a commandment in the New Covenant is missing what the New Covenant is about- faith.

Why do we need an explicit commandment to obey God when He wrote His laws in our hearts. While I believe the commandment of the 4th is repeated Luke23:56 Heb4:9NIV Mat12:12 Exo20:6 1John5:3 John14:15 1John5:3 there is not an explicit commandment to not vain God's name in the NC, but I do not believe we should do so.

The Sabbath is kept all throughout the NC by Jesus and the apostles and continues on for God's saints in the New Heaven and New Earth.
I don't have any hostility with respect to you or this subject, but you offer one final argument which I don't believe should go unanswered for any who may read this thread in the future. Your argument is that Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath Law throughout the New Covenant. I have answered this before, and will answer it again.

1) Jesus, during his earthly ministry, upheld the total number of requirements under the Law of Moses because this was before the cross, and when the Law of Moses was still in effect. Jesus keeping the Sabbath at this time, therefore, has zero bearing on this issue.

2) The Apostles kept the Sabbath after the cross because they were Jews, and naturally followed the tradition they had been raised with and the tradition prevalent among the Jewish People. It was a cultural tradition as much as it had been law under the Old Covenant. Keeping Sabbath observance is not the same thing as keeping Sabbath Law.

3) Paul taught that it was acceptable to observe the cultural traditions of people among whom evangelists and ministers of the Gospel have to work. They are cultural traditions and not endorsements of any law associated with those traditions. Paul made it clear that Christians are not under any law to observe religious days. They simply attempted to "fit in" with various cultures in order to not let peripheral matters become a stumbling block or impediment to the Gospel ministry among those peoples.

Let me be clear that I have Scriptures to back this up because repeatedly I've been told, falsely, that I do not use Scriptures to back up my claims. The main passage of Scripture I've been asked to focus on was Matt 5, where Jesus clarified that the *entire Law* was required at that time with all of the requirements, and not just some--not just the 10 Commandments or Sabbath Law, but all 613 or so requirements specified under the Law. And this would certainly include the 10 Commandments and Sabbath Law because they were all given to Israel at Horeb at the same time. Here are some of the appropriate passages in closing out my arguments here...

Mal 4.4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel."

Deut 4.10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when he said to me, “Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children.” 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. 14 And the Lord directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
5.1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7 “You shall have no other gods before me....
30 “Go, tell them to return to their tents. 31 But you stay here with me so that I may give you all the commands, decrees and laws you are to teach them to follow in the land I am giving them to possess....”
32 So be careful to do what the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. 33 Walk in obedience to all that the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.


Here, the day Israel approached Horeb, or Mt. Sinai, the Old Covenant was linked as covenant, represented by the 10 Commandments, to the entire sets of laws, as the agreement between God and Israel. The fact the 10 Commandments are separated as a subset of the entire Law is no different than distinguishing food laws or laws of feasts from the entire set of laws. They are all part of the same Covenant, the Old Covenant given to Israel at Horeb. The 10 Commandments merely represented, symbolically, the entire Covenant as a kind of moral summary of the Law at that time. (Matt 19.16-22)

That Jesus was under the Old Covenant at the time he gave the Sermon on the Mt. is clear from the following...

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Please note two things here...
1) Jesus had come to confirm the Law as still in place during his earthly ministry.
2) Jesus had come to bring the observance of the Law to the point of being fulfilled *in himself.*

We later read in Matthew that fulfilling this Law entailed Jesus going to the cross, where the veil was rent, indicating that the requirements of the Law were no longer necessary to achieve access to God. Christ had become the sole means of access to God.

Matt 27.51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Heb 9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.


Paul accepted the cultural practice of things that were not law for Christians but were law for those in Judaism...

1 Cor 9.20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
 
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Abraham1st

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Randy says that there is goodness in all, in a delayed or unrecognised manner. That would be fine, but once the testimony of Christ was told to the world, the commandment to repent was given to all men, so the sin that became death was unbelief.

Sabbath blessings says that the covenant of the new testament is the same as given to the children of Israel in the first covenant, recognising no difference in the laws to be written in the heart, but there is a difference according to the entire testimony of scripture, which is understanding what that covenant is. ( seen below)


Below, and to everyone, who ever reads in this THREAD, I BEGAN, is to show we are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, to have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:




Isaiah 24 shows the breaking of the everlasting covenant is by all inhabitants of the earth.


Isaiah 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.



Now Ezekiel 16, first lets Jerusalem to know its history with the Lord.

Jerusalem was not very impressive, it had birth in the land of Canaan, with the father an Amorite and the mother a Hittite. and the Lord spread HIs skirt over Jerusalem, covering Jerusalem's nakedness ( shame) and swore unto Jerusalem and entered into a covenant, said the Lord and Jerusalem became His ( marriage covenant.) and anointed Jerusalem with oil. ( Exodus 29:21.)

Jerusalem prospered into a kingdom, and had the renown go forth to the heathen, and Jerusalem trusted in her own beauty, and was a harlot because of the renown that went forth to the heathen, and poured out fornications. ( mother of harlots, mystery. Revelation 17:5.)

A weak heart to do the work of a whorish woman, by building high places, to not be as a harlot not wanting to be hired, but to be as a WIFE THAT COMMITS ADULTERY, who takes strangers instead of her husband. ( now we know why adultery exists in the world, it emphasises Jerusalem and reminds what Jerusalem did against God, by the adultery that continues everywhere in the entire world.)



Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Ezekiel 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

Ezekiel 16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.
14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezekiel 16:30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!



This PROVERB is against Jerusalem, of Jerusalem doing as the mother did, ( the mother of harlots) to despise her husband and her children ( Jerusalem's daughters.) and to be the sister of those who also loathed their husbands and their children ( their daughters) Jerusalem's mother was a Hittite ( the mother of harlots, mystery Babylon.) and the father an Amorite. The elder sister of Jerusalem is Samaria, ( and her daughters) and her younger sister is Sodom. ( and her daughters.)

When God would bring again the captivity of Sodom and her daughters and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then God will bring again the captivity of Jerusalem's captives in the middle of them. That is Jerusalem bearing her own shame, and also be confounded in being now a comfort to unto Samaria and to Sodom. ( being the reason why Samaria and Sodom are brought again from their captivity.) Jerusalem's sisters, Samaria and her daughters, and Sodom and her daughters, return to their former estate, THEN Jerusalem and her daughters shall return to their former estate.

Jerusalem did not mention her sister Sodom in the day of her PRIDE. The day of Jerusalem's pride was when her wickedness was discovered, the time of reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, who despise Jerusalem round about her. ( the renown went forth to the heathen and played the harlot with every one that passed by/and then scorned to be hired. ( Ezekiel 16:14-15.16:31)




Ezekiel 16:44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

Ezekiel 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about.




God declared He will deal with Jerusalem as Jerusalem had doe, who had DESPISED the oath ( which God had sworn unto Jerusalem. Ezekiel 16:8. ) in BREAKING THE COVENANT.

Even after that, ( which was done, to deal with Jerusalem who ended that covenant.) God remembers that covenant he had previously had with Jerusalem in her youth, and so established unto Jerusalem an EVERLASTING COVENANT, and Jerusalem will remember her ways and be ashamed by the receiving of her sisters, Samaria and Sodom, and gives them to JERUSALEM for DAUGHTERS, but NOT BY THEIR COVENANT. ( WHICH THEY BROKE AND WHICH ENDED..)

God established HIs covenant with Jerusalem, and they will know that God is the Lord, remembering and being confounded and never opening Jerusalem's mouth any more, when God would be pacified toward Jerusalem for all she had done. ( redemption, forgiveness, a new covenant ESTABLISHED ON BETTER PROMISES/SWORE/OATH.)



Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Ezekiel 16:59 For thus saith the Lord God; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.
60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord:
63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God.




All the prophets confirm this. Isaiah says to speak comfortably to Jerusalem, her warfare accomplished, her iniquity pardoned, she received double of the Lord's hand for all her sins. ( as Ezekiel 16 points out.) This is the beginning of that new covenant to be revealed, and of the iniquity of Jerusalem ( as Ezekiel 16 detailed) to be pardoned by God, of preparing the way of the Lord, making straight in the desert ( in the wilderness where Jerusalem received her covenant) a highway for our God.



Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.




Our God did as Ezekiel 16 and all the prophets had told, to establish the everlasting covenant, in His own blood, shed for many for the remission of sins.

More than the first covenant to cover the things with blood, we have to drink His blood to have Him dwell within us in FAITH. ( not ONLY SPRINKLING as in the first covenant, where the people were SPRINKLED/LAW and NOT BY FAITH.) TO the blood of sprinkling of JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, THAT SPEAKS BETTER THINGS than, that of Abel. ( BETTER THAN THE LAW/FIRST COVENANT DEDICATED IN CALVES AND GOATS BLOOD/THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT/NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS/WHEN HE COMES INTO THE WORD HE SAYS, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING HE WOULD NOT, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED ME.)

By means of death Christ redeems the transgressions that were under the first covenant, for those who are called ( to the new covenant/marriage) might receive the promise ( OATH OF GOD.) of eternal inheritance.




Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.




Now we know what covenant exactly was established between all nations of the world and with God, ( Jerusalem and Samaria and Sodom.) Samaria the elder sister according to Ezekiel 16, received the word of God, that was foretold to be the beginning of that covenant to also afterwards be with Jerusalem, to be established, so we see it WAS.

The younger sister Sodom also spiritually is Jerusalem, where also our Lord was crucified.



Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



All that is left to confirm is the same covenant to be established with Jerusalem afterwards, but NOT BY THEIR COVENANT.

We saw in Ezekiel 16, Jerusalem had not mentioned her sisters Samaria and Sodom in the day of her PRIDE.. The same is reminded to Samaria ( the Gentiles now in the new covenant) how the branches ( of Jerusalem) were BROKEN OFF ( Jerusalem had DESPISED and BROKEN their covenant. Ezekiel 16. Isaiah 24.) by no FAITH, and how the Gentiles now stand by FAITH, to NOT BE HIGHMINDED, but to FEAR.

Regarding the new covenant ( that is NOT ACCORDING TO THER COVENANT. Ezekiel 16.) Jerusalem are able to be graffed back in, if they do not remain in unbelief, ( FAITH TO ENTER.) and that blindness happened unto Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles is come in.

THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS. ( Out of Sion comes the deliverer, and shall turn away UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.)

God concluded all of them ( Jerusalem in their covenant.) in unbelief, ( in despising and breaking the covenant.) to have merc upon all. ( mercy upon Jerusalem's sisters, Samaria and Sodom, the comfort Jerusalem gave to them by justifying her sisters. JUSTIFIED THROUGH FAITH.)




Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


Ezekiel 16:52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Romans 5: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 
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