Born again morality as opposed to the worlds morality.

[Meowzltov]

Keep in mind that Steve is not arguing Christian theology as such--a subject about which he knows little or nothing. He is arguing the innate superiority of Western Anglo-Protestant culture, and why right-wing Evangelical Protestant sexual morality should be imposed by law on the non-Christian citizens of a secular state.

YIKES!!!! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Meowzltov]

Absolutely. It is, in fact, encouraged as a way of backing up your assertions with actual evidence. On the other hand, ust posting the link will not do without some commentary of your own explaining how it supports your argument.

Perfect!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would expect nothing less.

I'm deeply, deeply appreciative of the fact that you have taken the time to read all these books. I too have read a great deal about other religions, including Christianity. I believe with all my heart that being a better neighbor begins with listening to others and understanding them.

And there's a lot more I've read and/or sourced from where those came from.

Do you think Jesus really meant this literally? When I read the gospels, I thought it striking just how often Jesus employed hyperbole to make a point.

That's an excellent question. In the practicalities of political life, and as far as it may depend on us under the heavy hand of a dictatorial power, when push comes to shove, then .... yes, we might try to 'literally' do the intuitively impossible. And yes, Jesus used a lot of hyperbole----some of it He more or less expected to be implemented in a more literal (or socially forthright and earnest) way. Obviously, on a literal understanding, some of the things Jesus said wouldn't come naturally to those of us who have been raised in revolutionary minded societies.

I know I fail everyday in all of this, one way or another. And I'm aware of it. I would love nothing more than to have solidarity with other people, but some don't want that apparently.

 

[Godcrazy]

I have been thinking about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformastion that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

How does this comapred with the worlds ideologies on morality. Is this more like the old law of Moses. No matter what system or basis that is used it will always be a law or a norm that people must uphold but be forever falling short. Thus sin is never overcome and what may seem moral or good works is in the end a system doomed to fail according to Christs teachings.

For it is not the law that makes us justified but Christ who lives in us which transforms our sinful nature to want to obey God by nature not by good works.

I come to think of how the laws are written into everyone`s hearts. They all deep down know what is right and wrong. They just do not chose to act on it. Compared to born again, we want to act on it, and we are saddened when we fall short.

 

[Godcrazy]

I have been thinking about this comparison as I have transformed under Christ. God says He is the potter and we are the clay. As born again Christians we have a new nature and sin cannot live in us anymore. We are constantly being rebuked and handing over to God our sinful desires and own will in an ongoing transformastion that gets us closer and closer to being Christlike.

How does this comapred with the worlds ideologies on morality. Is this more like the old law of Moses. No matter what system or basis that is used it will always be a law or a norm that people must uphold but be forever falling short. Thus sin is never overcome and what may seem moral or good works is in the end a system doomed to fail according to Christs teachings.

For it is not the law that makes us justified but Christ who lives in us which transforms our sinful nature to want to obey God by nature not by good works.

I notice he takes all thoughts and if one pops up about different things and urge to do, it is taken it is gone poof just like that. Then I get a scripture in my mind or what God wants. It is automatic. I do not even have the desire to do what is wrong or what was coming. none. I get an instant strong dislike against everything that is unbiblical. then the same process follows. Then I fall over teachings about it. and bible verses. it just happening .it literally feels like you are sitting there on the tree and getting pruned. very gently though. and yes he pops the good thoughts about what he wants in your head and about his work

 

[Godcrazy]

I come to think of how the laws are written into everyone`s hearts. They all deep down know what is right and wrong. They just do not chose to act on it. Compared to born again, we want to act on it, and we are saddened when we fall short.

yes because everything he stands for and is is perfection and good. you cannot help but love him and want what he is

 

[Godcrazy]

Ok so now I am clarifying as people take this the wrong way.

I am speaking about maturity. About the ability to recognise sin and the thinking that goes with leading to falling short. Its a scientific fact that youths brains are not developed enough to even understand morality let alone sophiosticated nuances as to what is sin or not. An older wise man with much of lifes experience will see morality or be aware of what exactly is sin or not than a youth without that life experience.

For example an older male is over the hormonal explosion of puberty and young lust that comes as a result. They are settled, married and those influences have long lost their potency. To say that no Christian young man will engage in masturbation and that if they do they are no longer saved is unreal.

They will give into this temptation and they have to learn to deny the desires of the flesh. But it comes much easier for someone who is older and wiser and not as influenced by the power of hormonal development of youth.

But not just that young people will see some things that older people. We know this because surveys show a generational difference in what is regarded as sin. So in some cases we don't even agree on what is sin let alone be able to say that Christians don't commit sin.

Yes exactly. So they may sin occassionally or be made aware of a sin they have committed and they are to repent and hand that over. If they don't then as Paul says they are practiucing sin. They are repeating the sin and holding onto to it for some reason.

There is a big difference between becoming aware that one has sinned and repenting of it and holding on and not. One cultivates a heart that is sinful. The other is transforming the heart to be more Christlike.

Its not expected. This is the assumption that because people say that a Christian can still sin that this opens the floodgates to ongoing sin. It doesn't because it all depends on what you do with that sin. If you keep handing it over to God then you will have less and less sin. The floodgates will not open because your practicing getting rid of sin. Thats the attitude and disposition that we get rid of sin and keep doing so.

Yes and good fruit will come from someone who is handing sin to God so that He can transofrm them to produce good fruit. Those who practice sinning and hold onto sin will inevitably produce bad fruits because in holding one sin it turns into two and three and more until you become that sin. Rather than letting go of sin to become like Christ.

I agree. But theres a difference between occassional sin not practiced but as part of becoming aware of the deeper ways sin can happen to practicing sin which is really cultivating bad fruit.

it can be so strong, when someone from the world suggest or talk about things or be like something is normal and you just immediately go wow this is not biblical or normal NO screaming inside and you realise how much he has worked on you you cannot even think like them anymore despite one time you were among them

 

[stevevw]

I notice he takes all thoughts and if one pops up about different things and urge to do, it is taken it is gone poof just like that. Then I get a scripture in my mind or what God wants. It is automatic. I do not even have the desire to do what is wrong or what was coming. none. I get an instant strong dislike against everything that is unbiblical. then the same process follows. Then I fall over teachings about it. and bible verses. it just happening .it literally feels like you are sitting there on the tree and getting pruned. very gently though. and yes he pops the good thoughts about what he wants in your head and about his work

Yes and I think also we come to realise, but there for the grace of God go I. We see the weakness and depravity of our fallen human nature and frankly it scares us to God. We thank God that there is such a Father God who loves us that hHe knows us through Christ and that by grace we can overcome ourselves and the lies, and hate and evil in the world.

But it is an ongoing transition. I actually heard someone say the other day that no one person can go without sinning at some point even when saved. I am sure some live near perfect lives. But I also think to some extent because of our fallen nature we are blind to some and we can become aware and do better. It may be one of omission rather than commission.

But its the (state of being) and the disposition that we are sinners and without God we are by nature going to practice sin that keeps us in fear and respect for God as well. Which at the same time we are transformed more fully that we become Christ like and want to obey God out of returned love even sacrificing our lives as Christ did.

Which for humans is a radical and hard thing to become on their own I think. At least as far as any human made idea of reason to do so. Which is sort of testiment to God as with the disciples and early Christians I think. As Christians will be called to be today and in the future.

That I believe is the transformative power of Christ. That it can be all things, in all times as things change that it will speak the truth of Christ and that when the time is needed, or that faith is tested it will shine through and people will see this in reality and look to Gods truth inn Christ.

But as with the battle truth and good and evil there is a spiritual battle brewing and a change in the season and the figs are beginning to fall.

 

[stevevw]

it can be so strong, when someone from the world suggest or talk about things or be like something is normal and you just immediately go wow this is not biblical or normal NO screaming inside and you realise how much he has worked on you you cannot even think like them anymore despite one time you were among them

Yeah I think this becomes especially apparent in the public square for Christians. Your at work or in a public setting and see or hear something you disagree and believe and know as a Christian is wrong and have to stay quiet sometimes. Especially if it means your job or position in which you may have been able to do good work as a Christian in other ways.

So its important to assess the situation and allow God to do the work and create the opportunities. I believe that by doing this and creating this kind of condition people will come to listen or may bring up the subject themselves. Its just being smart in the lions den.

Though I think there will come times when you are called to declare your faith explicitely. It depends on your calling. Paul was a passionate evangelist and did not shy away from debates and denouncing sin in public and got assaulted several times. As with many Christians at that time paying ultimately with his life.

 

[Niels]

Jesus's teachings help make a moral life accessible. Although accepting Christ isn't necessary to have a conscience or otherwise do the right thing, he offers wisdom. Contrast what Jesus teaches with the rat race, heavily performative religions, or the idea that you must be fortunate or intelligent enough to find the keys to a moral life on your own, and the difference becomes apparent.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30

The difference isn't about whether a moral Christian is more moral than a moral nonbeliever. Both are moral. The difference is that the teachings of Jesus make it easier to arrive at the destination.