law discussions belong in the law/sabbath area, or controvertial.

[HIM]

Yes, we are told that sin is the breaking of God's Law. But God's Law is a general law, quite distinct from the Law of Moses. If you are speaking of the Law of Moses, sin is no longer defined as breaking that particular set of laws because *that Covenant is no longer in effect.* If you think it is, you are no longer under the New Covenant!

The New Covenant is the Law in our hearts and minds. Through Christ the Word is manifested in OUR flesh. It is no longer a question of do's and don'ts but wills and won'ts. For we are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the Word of truth. Be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.

 

[HIM]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
1 John 5:3 "this IS the Love of God that we keep His Commandments"
John 14:15 "if you Love Me keep My Commandments"
Eph 6:1-2 "Honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise"
Rom 3:31 "do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

Amen! The Word speaks for itself.

Interesting summation

That is a nice way to put it.

I don't expect you to agree or even reply. But If a change needs to happen here at this forum, we should be able to call people heretics and blasphemers for twisting God's Word after we have given the second or 3rd admonition through the Spirit of God, if He sees it as warranted, and we are lead too.

Because we are people of God and of His Spirit. And we move live and have our being through Him. With that understood, admonitions are definitely part of what God does through His people from time to time..

 

[RandyPNW]

Maybe this will help and one can hear the Words of our God- His written and spoken Testimony

Nobody is disputing that the Law of Moses was the product of God. What is in dispute is whether it, or its subset, the 10 Commandments, are still in effect.

It boggles me that you seem to be unable to understand that the 10 Commandments are part of the Law of Moses? I know that they sort of stand apart as a moral code within the Law as a whole. But still, they are a subset of the Law as a whole. And as such, when the Law went away as a Covenant system, the 10 Commandments went away, as well.

That does not mean that the moral code of God for man went away when the Law went away. Many of the laws contained--actually most, remain in effect under the New Covenant. But not the 10 Commandments, which as a set were linked inextricably with the Law of Moses, along with the Sabbath requirement.

It's almost as if God added the Sabbath requirement to remind us that the 10 as a whole belonged to the Law of Moses. That way, we can understand that it isn't just that animal sacrifices can't purify our soul, but our morality cannot purify us either.

We need Christ's sacrifice--not just following the pattern of animal sacrifice under the Law, but much more, living out his morality in perfection. We cannot obtain that standard, but in following him, the perfect standard, we obtain grace and mercy from him, and the gift of righteousness that leads to Eternal Life.

Quit trying to separate the 10 Commandments from the Law. They were all given at the same time and at the same place under the same covenant. Chist did it all for you.

Keeping the Sabbath and even living righteous could not obtain Eternal Life for you. Christ had to do it in an unblemished way.

Just follow him and his example. Eternal Life is a free gift, and not the product of your obedience to the moral code, nor to Sabbath Law, nor to anything that originates from your dirty life. You are cleansed by his word alone, and that comes from a new covenant--not the old one.

 

[RandyPNW]

The New Covenant is the Law in our hearts and minds. Through Christ the Word is manifested in OUR flesh. It is no longer a question of do's and don'ts but wills and won'ts. For we are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the Word of truth. Be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.

As I told you before, the word of God, or His Law, in our hearts is no different from any word God gave under the Old Covenant. All of God's laws must be in our hearts and minds!

What distinguished the New Covenant from the old one is Christ himself and Christ alone, as opposed to all of the laws of the Law of Moses. Christ alone is our priest, our sacrifice, our temple--not the old ones, which were only patterns.

And as I just told your friend, not even the moral code will save you. Christ had to do that too.

So you don't need to follow Sabbath law, or laws such as "don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, and don't covet." Just follow Christ as he did all these things, and then you will find yourself doing those things through him, and with it have Eternal Life.

The Law was based on what Israel could do, and it was insufficient to obtain Eternal Life. That's why we don't live under the old code, with its requirements and with its morality. We find our morality stripped of all things coming from us, and being issued only by him so that we can benefit from his flawless record.

If you go back to the 10 Commandments, you'll be going back to a system that requires you to do it, instead of God. That's doomed to failure, because your record contains sin.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not really saying we can ignore the prohibition on murder, theft, adultery or covetousness. I'm just saying we don't do it under the old system, in which our record counts. When we do all these things through Christ, his record is what counts, and he can forgive us our sins and lead us to Eternal Life.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nobody is disputing that the Law of Moses was the product of God. What is in dispute is whether it, or its subset, the 10 Commandments, are still in effect.

It boggles me that you seem to be unable to understand that the 10 Commandments are part of the Law of Moses? I know that they sort of stand apart as a moral code within the Law as a whole. But still, they are a subset of the Law as a whole. And as such, when the Law went away as a Covenant system, the 10 Commandments went away, as well.

That does not mean that the moral code of God for man went away when the Law went away. Many of the laws contained--actually most, remain in effect under the New Covenant. But not the 10 Commandments, which as a set were linked inextricably with the Law of Moses, along with the Sabbath requirement.

It's almost as if God added the Sabbath requirement to remind us that the 10 as a whole belonged to the Law of Moses. That way, we can understand that it isn't just that animal sacrifices can't purify our soul, but our morality cannot purify us either.

We need Christ's sacrifice--not just following the pattern of animal sacrifice under the Law, but much more, living out his morality in perfection. We cannot obtain that standard, but in following him, the perfect standard, we obtain grace and mercy from him, and the gift of righteousness that leads to Eternal Life.

Quit trying to separate the 10 Commandments from the Law. They were all given at the same time and at the same place under the same covenant. Chist did it all for you.

Keeping the Sabbath and even living righteous could not obtain Eternal Life for you. Christ had to do it in an unblemished way.

Just follow him and his example. Eternal Life is a free gift, and not the product of your obedience to the moral code, nor to Sabbath Law, nor to anything that originates from your dirty life. You are cleansed by his word alone, and that comes from a new covenant--not the old one.

I do not go with almost if, or that God's Testimony is not moral. If that's your desire, that's your free will.

Your argument about God separating the Ten Commandments is not with me. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Deut 5:22 Nor were they given at the same time according to God. Exo20:11.

When we don't believe God's own Testimony, I do not see the point of our Bibles, just toss them as thats what its about. The testimony of God through His prophets and apostles, yet when it comes to God's own written and spoken Testimony, few believe.

 

[Hentenza]

You are contending over the Law, as the original poster indicated. I'm not going to tell moderators where to put posts or how to run their website, but I will agree with the original poster that teaching the Law and with it Sabbath Law is not Scriptural.

Yes, we are told that sin is the breaking of God's Law. But God's Law is a general law, quite distinct from the Law of Moses. If you are speaking of the Law of Moses, sin is no longer defined as breaking that particular set of laws because *that Covenant is no longer in effect.* If you think it is, you are no longer under the New Covenant!

But the Law ofGod, in the general sense, is God's holiness for Man that has existed from our creation, being created in the image and likeness of God. We are morally obligated to live like God. That is God's Law, quite distinct from the Law of Moses, which came much later after our creation.

And so, you mix up the Law of God and the Law of Moses. When the Law of Moses was in effect it contained the general Law of God--laws that remain in effect after the Old Covenant passed away. Moral laws have not gone away with the termination of the Covenant of Law.

So yes, sin is defined as opposing God's Law. But that Law does not remain defined technically as the Law of Moses, since that Law is no longer in effect.

So then it begs the question, is the 4th commandment in the new covenant (post crucifixion) a moral law?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It begs the real question, who deems what is moral or not. Where in Scripture does it say we do not have to obey one of God's commandments and discard the Testimony of our God. . Who deems what is righteous which is moral God or us. Who has more authority than God to judge one of God's commandments and Testimony. It essentially makes one their own god deciding what is moral, deciding what is righteous, deciding which commandments to keep or not, deciding which Testimony of God to keep or not. Isa 8:20

 

[Hentenza]

It begs the real question, who deems what is moral or not. Where in Scripture does it say we do not have to obey one of God's commandments and discard the Testimony of our God. . Who deems what is righteous which is moral God or us. Who has more authority than God to judge one of God's commandments and Testimony. It essentially makes one their own god deciding what is moral, deciding what is righteous, deciding which commandments to keep or not, deciding which Testimony of God to keep or not. Isa 8:20

Again, not a straight answer. The logical consequence to your belief is that all professed Christians that worship on Sunday live in sin and therefore cannot be saved. This is where the rubber meets the road if what you are teaching is true. So what say you?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, not a straight answer. The logical consequence to your belief is that all professed Christians that worship on Sunday live in sin and therefore cannot be saved. This is where the rubber meets the road if what you are teaching is true. So what say you?

Sunday is not a commandment of God, but a tradition of man. The Sabbath is a commandment of God, written and spoken by God that sits under His mercy seat. Exo 20:8-11

Jesus answers this very principle quoting from the Ten Commandments

Mark 7:And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside (saying its not for me) the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[RandyPNW]

So then it begs the question, is the 4th commandment in the new covenant (post crucifixion) a moral law?

All laws, when they are in effect by the living word of God, are moral laws. The question becomes, are they in effect now?

When such laws are given in a set, in conjunction with an entire set of laws contained in a single covenant, then these moral laws are required as long as that covenant remains in effect. If that covenant goes away, some of those moral laws may continue in a new covenant, which we know they do.

And, I might add, if we obey laws under a particular covenant, such as the Law of Moses, we are obligated to keep all of them. We can't just select the 10 Commandments as a token of our obedience to the Law.

The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the Old was required of Israel and consisted of their flawed record, but one recorded in faith. By contrast, the New Covenant is the record of Christ, which was flawless, and something he chose to give us so that we can participate with him in his own righteousness. By his spotless record we obtain with him Eternal Life.

So the moral law may be the same, at times, from Old to New Covenant. But what system we are living under makes the difference as to whether our record keeps us from Eternal Life or his flawless record enables us to receive Eternal Life.

When we obey the eternal moral law prohibitting us from murder, for example, we are obeying this as we trust in Christ to give us his life and Spirit, along with his requirement that we live through him alone, and not by our own works. We conform our works to his guidance so that what we do conforms to him the best we can. We show in this our faith that he will forgive our sins and continue to endow us with his righteousness since we've chosen to enter into covenant with him.

We either live under a system that depends upon us keeping all of those laws, moral and ritual, and preserves our flawed record. Or, we live under Christ who gives us the benefit of his own flawless record. One leads to failure, and the other leads to life.

 

[ralliann]

Christianity is not supposed to thrive/be busy by dispute, is that not partly why there are different areas for different discussions, but how can teaching of law, commandments, sabbath, belong in a general area, and not where people who seek that, go to, exactly as the attempt to curcumcise and keep the law were rejected. If these subjects are not put away, it shows a different judgement to Gods seen below again..

Covenant theology could have been such an area. But was closed down. There could be a place to discuss the covenants, that would/could work well for this.

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The synagogue taught the covenant of Noah, to the God fearers in attendance.

Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

1. This was from "old time" of Ezra, by decree of Cyrus/Artaxerxes

Ezra 7:21 And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,

2. God Fearing, of God's wrath on the realm of the king, and his sons

22 Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.
Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons? {Whatsoever … : Chaldee, Whatsoever is of the decree }
24 Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.

3. Synagogues set up to be courts of judgement, and teach the law of God to all which knew it not

25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.

26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment. {to banishment:

 

[Hentenza]

All laws, when they are in effect by the living word of God, are moral laws. The question becomes, are they in effect now?

When such laws are given in a set, in conjunction with an entire set of laws contained in a single covenant, then these moral laws are required as long as that covenant remains in effect. If that covenant goes away, some of those moral laws may continue in a new covenant, which we know they do.

And, I might add, if we obey laws under a particular covenant, such as the Law of Moses, we are obligated to keep all of them. We can't just select the 10 Commandments as a token of our obedience to the Law.

The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the Old was required of Israel and consisted of their flawed record, but one recorded in faith. By contrast, the New Covenant is the record of Christ, which was flawless, and something he chose to give us so that we can participate with him in his own righteousness. By his spotless record we obtain with him Eternal Life.

So the moral law may be the same, at times, from Old to New Covenant. But what system we are living under makes the difference as to whether our record keeps us from Eternal Life or his flawless record enables us to receive Eternal Life.

When we obey the eternal moral law prohibitting us from murder, for example, we are obeying this as we trust in Christ to give us his life and Spirit, along with his requirement that we live through him alone, and not by our own works. We conform our works to his guidance so that what we do conforms to him the best we can. We show in this our faith that he will forgive our sins and continue to endow us with his righteousness since we've chosen to enter into covenant with him.

We either live under a system that depends upon us keeping all of those laws, moral and ritual, and preserves our flawed record. Or, we live under Christ who gives us the benefit of his own flawless record. One leads to failure, and the other leads to life.

The 4th commandment has always been ritual not moral. It was set up as a day of rest to save the land and was observed in ritual form. The legalists will want you to believe that just because the church worships on Sunday instead of Saturday that we live in sin. If you believe that the 4th commandment is moral then that is the logical ending. If you consider that the 4th commandment is moral in both the old and the new covenant then the logical end is the same.

 

[Hentenza]

All laws, when they are in effect by the living word of God, are moral laws. The question becomes, are they in effect now?

When such laws are given in a set, in conjunction with an entire set of laws contained in a single covenant, then these moral laws are required as long as that covenant remains in effect. If that covenant goes away, some of those moral laws may continue in a new covenant, which we know they do.

And, I might add, if we obey laws under a particular covenant, such as the Law of Moses, we are obligated to keep all of them. We can't just select the 10 Commandments as a token of our obedience to the Law.

Right so stop preaching the law for the Christian. The law is a curse and we are not under the curse. The law does not justify, never has and never will.

The difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is that the Old was required of Israel and consisted of their flawed record, but one recorded in faith. By contrast, the New Covenant is the record of Christ, which was flawless, and something he chose to give us so that we can participate with him in his own righteousness. By his spotless record we obtain with him Eternal Life.

So the moral law may be the same, at times, from Old to New Covenant. But what system we are living under makes the difference as to whether our record keeps us from Eternal Life or his flawless record enables us to receive Eternal Life.

When we obey the eternal moral law prohibitting us from murder, for example, we are obeying this as we trust in Christ to give us his life and Spirit, along with his requirement that we live through him alone, and not by our own works. We conform our works to his guidance so that what we do conforms to him the best we can. We show in this our faith that he will forgive our sins and continue to endow us with his righteousness since we've chosen to enter into covenant with him.

We either live under a system that depends upon us keeping all of those laws, moral and ritual, and preserves our flawed record. Or, we live under Christ who gives us the benefit of his own flawless record. One leads to failure, and the other leads to life.

Quite frankly you have learned to hide what you are actually preaching but most of us can see through it. I’m only talking about the 4th commandment which is ritualistic not moral. Under the new covenant keeping the sabbath is a matter of spiritual freedom not a requirement for salvation (Col 2:16-17).

 

[ARBITER01]

Christianity is not supposed to thrive/be busy by dispute, is that not partly why there are different areas for different discussions, but how can teaching of law, commandments, sabbath, belong in a general area, and not where people who seek that, go to, exactly as the attempt to curcumcise and keep the law were rejected. If these subjects are not put away, it shows a different judgement to Gods seen below again..

If you want less strife in the general section, report those threads that are controversial, or like some of the recent sabbath, law threads, for movement into the correct thread section, instead of starting new threads complaining about it. You'll get more done that way.

Just saying.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, there was never a law that one could be saved just by circumcision in the law of Moses, eliminating the need for Jesus. It was never the point of circumcision. As addressed in Acts 15 and several places in Scripture.

I find it odd Acts 15:21 was left out of the OP. How the gentiles would learn the rest of God's word. Acts 13:42, 44, Acts18:4

A covenant not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob....Saved by grace, through faith

Deut 5:1 ¶ And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep … : Heb. keep to do them }
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

 

[RandyPNW]

Right so stop preaching the law for the Christian. The law is a curse and we are not under the curse. The law does not justify, never has and never will.

Quite frankly you have learned to hide what you are actually preaching but most of us can see through it. I’m only talking about the 4th commandment which is ritualistic not moral. Under the new covenant keeping the sabbath is a matter of spiritual freedom not a requirement for salvation (Col 2:16-17).

It depends on what you mean by "keeping the Sabbath?" If you are suggesting the NT Scriptures *require* under Law obedience to the Sabbath Law, you are quite wrong. We do not have liberty to teach Sabbath observance *as Law!*

I'm not hiding a thing, and shame on you for accusing me of something that is untrue. I've preached this thing for many years and in many places. I do try, and sometimes fail, to be tactful, but my position has been long established.

If you say there is no Law under the New Covenant that is untrue. The New Covenant is literally filled with laws! Just read the NT Scriptures, and you cannot deny this. We are required under the New Covenant to do lots of things, including many of the things required under the Old Covenant, such as love God alone and respect others, etc.

Yes, Sabbath Law is ritual or repetitive, and if not done in the Spirit it was rote. However, even ritual laws, when done by the Spirit, were moral laws. They were a matter of following God, and as such, expressions of faith for His mercy in sustaining them in covenant relationship despite their sins and weaknesses.

I really don't know why you come across so loveless and accusing? Please explain?

 

[RandyPNW]

The 4th commandment has always been ritual not moral. It was set up as a day of rest to save the land and was observed in ritual form. The legalists will want you to believe that just because the church worships on Sunday instead of Saturday that we live in sin. If you believe that the 4th commandment is moral then that is the logical ending. If you consider that the 4th commandment is moral in both the old and the new covenant then the logical end is the same.

On the contrary, if you don't believe obeying Sabbath Law *during the OT era* was moral law, resulting in obefdience and pleasing God, you have major issues. It is always moral to obey God's word, in whatever covenant happens to be in play at the time.

Under the Law, it was moral to obey all of the rituals involved in the priesthood, the temple, and the animal sacrifices. Today, in the New Covenant, it is no longer moral to follow those rituals because they are no longer in play.

What is in play in the New Covenant is belief that Christ is the only way--not the ritual laws and not any self-effort apart from partnership with him, ie "abiding in him." We get our righteousness from Christ, spiritually, only if we acknowledge him as its source, and live in obedience to his word.

What I've done here, however, is distinguish in the Law of Moses between laws that are ritual oriented from laws that are more morality oriented. I'm not saying ritual laws are not moral--only that we can distinguish between strictly moral laws that are *always* in play, no matter what covenant is being referred to.

 

[Abraham1st]

We have to go SEE, from a different angle. ( this is for any Christian who believes the simplicity that is in Christ.)


The sabbaths are a sign between God and the children of Israel. That was their holiness, to know it was the Lord God who sanctified them. ( holiness in keeping the sabbath) Punishable by death is the outcome to disobey God in this. Not keeping the sabbath was defiling of the sign. God also explains why this was to be kept by them, because of the creation of all thing in six days, and the rest on the seventh day.




Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.




That is easily understood, that it is an important law to the children of Israel, a sign between them and God, of holiness, sanctification, to not defile it, and punishment by death to enforce it, and that it was for all generations. ( perpetual)

Numbers 15 again shows what is to be done by anyone breaking the commandments of the Lord, purposefully, to be cut off, as the man gathering sticks on the SABBATH DAY, stoned to death for it.



Numbers 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

Numbers 15:35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.



Here for ultimate consideration are reasons in the law, for the children of Israel to PUT MEN TO DEATH.

Murder is understood to be a crime, for the whole world put men in prison for a life sentence, or put to death for murder.

Now the rest of the offences, that according to the law of Moses, men are to be put to death, but that the rest of the world do not enforce such punishments in their societies.


1. For smiting/hitting your mother or fathe: PUT TO DEATH.
2. For men stealing: PUT TO DEATH.
3. For cursing your mother or father: PUT TO DEATH.
4. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
5. For being a witch: PUT TO DEATH.
6. Teaching to serve other than God: PUT TO DEATH.
7. For being a stubborn rebellious son, being \ glutton and a drunk: PUT TO DEATH.
8. For committing adultery: PUT TO DEATH.
9. For having a familiar spirit or being a wizard: PUT TO DEATH.



Exodus 21:14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Deuteronomy 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


Leviticus 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which sanctify you.
9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.




Jesus Christ had a lot to do to take away all of those death sentences, while not entirely abolishing the law.



1. First of all striking, striking was never good, but now it is understood not to do it, because no country puts men to death for striking..



1 Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;



2. For slave trading. Again never good, but it is not a death sentence in the world, and also scripture showed to not care if men were servants, but if they could be made fee to use that freedom for God.



1 Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.



3. Cursing your parents is not a nice outcome, but it is not something countries put people or children to death for. THe scripture also now exhorts the children to instead honour your father and mother, as this comes with promise, of long life, and to not push their children towards wrath, but to bring them up better in the love and correction of the Lord. ( love now, not death sentence)



Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.



4. Eye for eye is another hard punishment for a hard act. It is not a punishment that societies in the world return. Also Jesus spoke of it, but now no resistance against evil was to be rein acted. ( as all these punishments OF DEATH ARE RESISTANCE OF EVIL) including the one about smiting the mother and father, the word now is to turn the other cheek to them. ( to overcome evil WITH GOOD, not with DEATH SENTENCE.)



Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



5. To put a witch to death. Society does not put anyone practising withcraft TO DEATH. The scripture shows it is a work of the flesh, along with idolatry, hatred, wrath and strife. ( many people on the Christian forum take part in those works of the flesh, and cant enforce the law to put someone to DEATH, for the same works of the flesh they continue to do.)



Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.




6. For teaching to serve idols, it is not a DEATH SENTENCE for people in this world to receive for serving who they deem to be their god. Now it is EXHORTATION, to flee from idolatry.



1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.




7. For being stubborn, a glutton and a drunk, that is NOT A DEATH SENTENCE in societies. Jesus Christ as said by those of the law that gave DEATH SENTENCES, that He was a glutton and a drunk. Also the word on drunks from God is not to put these to DEATH, 9 REMEMBER TO NOT RESIST EVIL WITH EVIL ANY MORE.) but to simply NOT KEEP COMPANY WITH THEM.



Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.




8. For committing adultery, society understands that ends in divorce now. Aso those under the law came to Jesus demanding that e agree to put a woman caught in adultery to death, so that they could catch Him not agreeing to THEIR LAW. Jesus again reveals how to not RESIST EVIL WITH EVIL BUT WITH GOOD, to answer them by CONSCIENCE, if they are worth to stone her to death to do it, and that they no longer can ENFORCE SUCH LAWS in this world.



John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Jonh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.




9. Having a familiar spirit or being a wizard, we know that society does not KILL such people. Also we see the answer now is not to put these TO DEATH, but through faith which was NOT AVAILABLE in the first covenant/law, to command these spirits to come out of the people and to free those people, to have compassion, mercy, kindness, and not evil any more.



Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.





The sabbath also is not enforced by DEATH for not keeping it, because as we see Jesus Christ is Lord of all, to give all the right ways of the Lord, Mercy and nothing of the law that resisted evil with more of the same. ( this is impossible for Christ who is holy and harmless who is US NOW. He is Lord of the sabbath also. The sabbath does not have man made for it, the man was made and the sabbath came after, and now caame the Lord of all including the sabbath. ( to show the right judgement for all, to all)



Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 

[Abraham1st]

On the contrary, if you don't believe obeying Sabbath Law *during the OT era* was moral law, resulting in obefdience and pleasing God, you have major issues. It is always moral to obey God's word, in whatever covenant happens to be in play at the time.

Under the Law, it was moral to obey all of the rituals involved in the priesthood, the temple, and the animal sacrifices. Today, in the New Covenant, it is no longer moral to follow those rituals because they are no longer in play.

What is in play in the New Covenant is belief that Christ is the only way--not the ritual laws and not any self-effort apart from partnership with him, ie "abiding in him." We get our righteousness from Christ, spiritually, only if we acknowledge him as its source, and live in obedience to his word.

What I've done here, however, is distinguish in the Law of Moses between laws that are ritual oriented from laws that are more morality oriented. I'm not saying ritual laws are not moral--only that we can distinguish between strictly moral laws that are *always* in play, no matter what covenant is being referred to.

There are no morals in putting someone to death for not keeping the sabbath, when we have Christ in us now. Or we are reprobate ( without morals) So everyone who never had Christ in them, neither had nor followed any moral. See what I just wrote above in the previous post, if there were morals, or they ONLY APPEARED, when Christ our Lord appeared to show the way.



Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[Hentenza]

It depends on what you mean by "keeping the Sabbath?" If you are suggesting the NT Scriptures *require* under Law obedience to the Sabbath Law, you are quite wrong. We do not have liberty to teach Sabbath observance *as Law!*

I'm not hiding a thing, and shame on you for accusing me of something that is untrue. I've preached this thing for many years and in many places. I do try, and sometimes fail, to be tactful, but my position has been long established.

If you say there is no Law under the New Covenant that is untrue. The New Covenant is literally filled with laws! Just read the NT Scriptures, and you cannot deny this. We are required under the New Covenant to do lots of things, including many of the things required under the Old Covenant, such as love God alone and respect others, etc.

Yes, Sabbath Law is ritual or repetitive, and if not done in the Spirit it was rote. However, even ritual laws, when done by the Spirit, were moral laws. They were a matter of following God, and as such, expressions of faith for His mercy in sustaining them in covenant relationship despite their sins and weaknesses.

I really don't know why you come across so loveless and accusing? Please explain?

I must apologize to you. This reply was meant for someone else. My deepest apologies.