Jesus & Social Justice

[Colo Millz]

It reads like a false dilemma, why does the world have to be setup in such a way that it's possible to have both eschatological glory and avoid earthly suffering? I guess that is what is argued before this part of the text.

When it comes to making a rational choice between them the only thing I need is a way to ascribe some utility to what's presented to me and choose the one that maximizes the utility based on the available information. To me eschatological glory doesn't even sound good but minimizing earthly suffering I do find good, so it is an easy and rational choice. So there are contexts where such a judgement can be meaningfully made, hence my initial objection.

Perhaps the next part of the passage I quoted would be of interest:

And yet Ivan’s argument still cannot be set aside, for a number of reasons: because it is in fact a genuinely moral pathos to which it gives expression, which means that it is haunted by the declaration in Christ of God’s perfect goodness; and because it is precisely the finite Euclidean mind that is meant to be transfigured by God’s love and awakened to God’s mercy, and so the restlessness of the unquiet heart must not be treated as mere foolish unfaithfulness; and because, simply said, the suffering of children remains real and horrible and unjust, and it is obscene to seek to mitigate the scandal of such suffering by allowing hope to degenerate into banal confidence in “God’s great plan.”

Hart, David Bentley. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (pp. 69-70). Eerdmans. Kindle Edition.

 

[partinobodycular]

What Hart is saying in the passage I quoted is - I think - even if that is true, we still need to make a choice. The choice is between the view that freedom, as an infinitely precious gift from God, outweighs the immense pain of the world, or it does not.

Which leads us to the Repugnant Conclusion... if infinite glory can justify unbearable suffering then there's no amount of unbearable suffering that an omnibenevolent God can't justify... nor any amount of evil that it can't tolerate.

 

[Stopped_lurking]

Perhaps the next part of the passage I quoted would be of interest:

And yet Ivan’s argument still cannot be set aside, for a number of reasons: because it is in fact a genuinely moral pathos to which it gives expression, which means that it is haunted by the declaration in Christ of God’s perfect goodness; and because it is precisely the finite Euclidean mind that is meant to be transfigured by God’s love and awakened to God’s mercy, and so the restlessness of the unquiet heart must not be treated as mere foolish unfaithfulness; and because, simply said, the suffering of children remains real and horrible and unjust, and it is obscene to seek to mitigate the scandal of such suffering by allowing hope to degenerate into banal confidence in “God’s great plan.”

Hart, David Bentley. The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (pp. 69-70). Eerdmans. Kindle Edition.

Mr Hart writes with flowery language, and I see that he wants to treat the moral conflict in the teodicé-problem as something to deal with seriously. However, but by using the Euclidean mind as the foil against to fence mr Hart is solving/commenting on it from very narrow perspective.

And this passage doesn't do anything for my first objection, or the sentence before it either. It only acknowledges that even within the frame mr Hart has chosen to paint his argument both sides are worthy of respect.

 

[Amo2]

I think you are missing the point. I would (hypothetically) instil within a he potential rapist zero desire to rape.

Boom. Problem solved. No one needs to suffer.

That was already done at creation, when we were still perfect before God, then we blew it by refusing not to do the one thing He asked us not to do. That the power of choice might exist, that the issue of God's authority challenged by one of His angels might be resolved once and for all. That all creation might see the true character of God revealed in how He has dealt with upholding His righteous standards, yet offering Himself on the cross for all who desire to be right with Him again unto eternal life. Fully vindicating the pure, righteous, benevolent, and holy nature our God through Christ Jesus His Son. Amen! You are simply asking for a repeat of the events which have already transpired unto our present situation of needing salvation from sin.

Go back to Genesis and read the creation account. At the end of very day, God pronounced everything He had created to be good. No rapists, no evil at all. What was the one thing God asked our progenitors not to do, which tree did He ask them not to eat of? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because they were created without that knowledge, and or therefore evil thoughts leading to evil actions.

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.................................................................
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

There you have it. God already did what you say you would have done, with only one difference. Just one command concerning one thing they could not do, that they might not be pure and holy like God, simply because they had no choice or even opportunity to be otherwise. So that we were and are not just so many biological automatons, but rather real, intelligent, reasoning, and free beings. Who worship God because we love Him, not because we simply do not know any better, or are afraid of Him.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Although you are more than just a little late to the game, God has already done what you suggest He should have done from the beginning of creation. We are now nearing the end of the issue, at which time God will once again narrow all things down to just one issue, one choice to be made which will reveal all of our true intentions concerning choosing evil or not. Choosing to follow the example of our God and Savior, or the example of Lucifer unto rebellion and false accusations about the character and benevolence of our God.

 

[Amo2]

Sure. Tell yourself that a raped woman will voluntarily give themselves over to death by stoning if you like.

Sure. Tell yourself the scriptures which do not mention force or rape at all, are addressing force and rape. That you may falsely accuse the character and benevolence of God. It is your choice, He will not prevent you. As it is most obvious that He does not believe in forcing anyone to do anything, let alone worship and or adore Him. Nevertheless, you choose to believe He punishes the innocent right along with the guilty. So be it, according as each of us wishes. According to the freedom and liberty God has determined was worth the life of His Son, for each of us. Nevertheless, He has had a plan from the beginning.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

There you have it, full circle. Bringing humanity back into reconciliation with God, and recreating holiness within God's own to the point that they are once again unblamable, and unreprovable before God. Just as He created us from the beginning, when no rape or evil at all was in the thoughts or actions of our first parents. Before they partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which God had commanded them not to do. God was, is, and will always be far, far ahead of you and the rest of us.

 

[Amo2]

So rapes can happen in Heaven?

No. Satan and his angels are no longer in heaven, they were cast out. Nor do we know if angels are even designed to procreate, or with procreation in mind. Nor are the angels in the same situation as we are, having all been in the very presence of God, seeing the full extent of His glory and the glory of His creations.

 

[Larniavc]

That was already done at creation, when we were still perfect before God, then we blew it by refusing not to do the one thing He asked us not to do.

Sorry, where did rape happen in Genesis? We are specifically discussing rape; and that takes place in the world today. We are discussing God’s current inactivity on the subject of rape disallowment.

Can we stick to that? I appreciate you believe that all the evil in the world is because of people but taking that as red we have the current issue of rape continuing when God could change the though process of rapists to the thought processes of non rapists.

Or simply not create people with the ability to do rapes.

 

[Larniavc]

Nor are the angels in the same situation as we are, having all been in the very presence of God, seeing the full extent of His glory and the glory of His creations.

That seems like a good way of stopping the rape. Why doesn’t God do that?

 

[Larniavc]

No

Is that because they don’t want to do rapes in Heaven or because God stops them?