Jesus & Social Justice

[Amo2]

And while we wait for that women keep getting raped. As I said. I would stop it straight away if I had his power.

But I don’t so women will have to keep on getting raped.

Yes, women and all people will have to continue to deal with many forms of abuse and suffering as our Lord Himself did at our hands as well. What they decide and or choose to believe in relation to such deplorable conditions, having direct bearing upon their eternal destinies. As God has determined, far above any of our ability to control, or even really comprehend all that is involved concerning such. Although some might think they do, and judge God accordingly.

It is a good thing that God does not allow us to control the situation, as we are not able at all to see the end from the beginning, or even consider others apart from ourselves right around us, let alone all the other created beings of other worlds as well. We simply are not qualified to handle such things far, far beyond us. Though many of us think we are, and think we know enough to judge God, and even of course do a better job than He is. These people however, are simply tragically ignorant of the reality of the situation. Trusting their own extremely limited knowledge, understanding, and ability, above that of God and His written word for us regarding such things. So be it.

This also is in accordance with God's will concerning freedom of choice for all, the consequences of such regarding all creation, and the final solution to unwarranted rebellion against the benevolent authority of our Creator.

 

[Amo2]

Then why would I stop the rapes now and not in some unknown point in the future?

Because each and every human being is of infinite value being purchased by the blood of God Himself, who would rather die at our hands than force us to do anything. Being made literal flesh and blood children of the living God in and though Christ Jesus our Lord, a privilege above all others. With great power comes great responsibility, and in the future the saved will have great power as the literal flesh and blood spins and daughters of God. As such, they must be tested and proved to be worthy of such a high and exalted position among all creation.

Created as intelligent and responsible beings with exact intent and eternal purpose, we must choose that which is right over that which is wrong. Before entering God's eternal kingdom as those who chose to pick up their crosses and follow Him who came to reveal the Father to all creation through us. To take away peoples choice, would be to end their freedom, and personal freedom is what it is all about. What will we do with the freedom God has given us, which we will all be judged by. This is apart from the fact that only God knows when the right time is to end this process, ending the possibility of salvation and eternal life for countless millions of humanity who would be born yet, after He ends this basically probationary period He has allowed for sin and sinners to be saved. We must choose now, while the enormity of our sins may be seen and understood for exactly what they are, by all creation. That the matter might be settled once and for all eternity.

God does not want to rule over beings that he must force to comply with righteousness, who would have to live and act out their lives in constant fear of punishment for their wrong doings. He wants those who have decidedly chosen right over wrong only, and in fact will accept no other into his eternal kingdom. Therefore -

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Amo2]

Doesn’t seem very compassionate to blame a rape victim for being raped.

Nor is it proper to quote others out of context, and make them out to be saying that which they never intended. Whether that be holy scripture which you are making out to say what it simply does not. Or my own words or word, which you are also manipulating. Neither of which is blaming a rape victim for being raped. This is your manipulation of others words, not what they are actually saying or mean to express.

 

[Meowzltov]

I did. I think it’s wrong. Did you read Deuteronomy 22:24?

Dude, I was the one who first quoted the verse to you. That's why I'm asking you, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

 

[Stopped_lurking]

This is an extremely dense and sophisticated pair of sentences I am not sure my childish brain can understand ...

However I think this is your main question: "why should we weigh eschatological glory against earthly suffering"?

To “weigh” eschatological glory against earthly suffering is to ask whether the promise of ultimate redemption or joy can justify the immense pain of the present world.

In The Brothers Karamazov Ivan refuses this weighing:

“I don’t want harmony. I don’t accept it. I return the ticket.”

He’s saying: even if all suffering is redeemed in the final accounting, a rational moral sense cannot accept a system that requires children’s torture as its precondition. That’s the "Euclidean" protest - the "economy" of God is unacceptable - to Ivan.

Ivan's position is that the Euclidean mind sees two incommensurable magnitudes - infinite glory versus finite but unbearable suffering - and cannot integrate them.

What Hart is saying in the passage I quoted is - I think - even if that is true, we still need to make a choice. The choice is between the view that freedom, as an infinitely precious gift from God, outweighs the immense pain of the world, or it does not.

It reads like a false dilemma, why does the world have to be setup in such a way that it's possible to have both eschatological glory and avoid earthly suffering? I guess that is what is argued before this part of the text.

When it comes to making a rational choice between them the only thing I need is a way to ascribe some utility to what's presented to me and choose the one that maximizes the utility based on the available information. To me eschatological glory doesn't even sound good but minimizing earthly suffering I do find good, so it is an easy and rational choice. So there are contexts where such a judgement can be meaningfully made, hence my initial objection.

 

[Larniavc]

Yes, women and all people will have to continue to deal with many forms of abuse and suffering as our Lord Himself did at our hands as well.

Yeah and in answering your question I clearly stated that there would be zero rapes were I in control.

Now; I’m sure you agree that zero rapes are better than any rapes?

 

[Larniavc]

Because each and every human being is of infinite value being purchased by the blood of God Himself, who would rather die at our hands than force us to do anything.

Which is where I would act differently. Rather than kill myself in response people being raped I would use my hypothetical god power to stop people being raped in the first place.

A better solution for all concerned.

 

[Larniavc]

To take away peoples choice, would be to end their freedom, and personal freedom is what it is all about.

How much choice is there in Heaven?

 

[Larniavc]

Neither of which is blaming a rape victim for being raped.

The Bible clearly states the circumstances for which a rape victim is to be killed due to being raped.

 

[Larniavc]

Dude, I was the one who first quoted the verse to you. That's why I'm asking you, did you even bother to read what I wrote?

Then you can clearly see that I read it because it clearly says the circumstances under which as rape victim was to be killed after being raped.

What part of that is not in the Bible?

 

[Yarddog]

Too late. The Christian Right have hijacked the Gospel to bring social order, not social justice. It looks like Marx was right about Christianity after all.

That's a small percentage of Christians that aren't practicing Christianity.

The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.

 

[Amo2]

Yeah and in answering your question I clearly stated that there would be zero rapes were I in control.

Now; I’m sure you agree that zero rapes are better than any rapes?

No, there would not be zero rapes if were you in control, there would in fact be many more rapes and all other forms of evil if you were in control. You could not even do that which God is willing to do and does concerning each and every individual, which is to convict all evil doers that the actions they wish to commit are in fact wrong and evil. And warn them of the future judgment they will face for committing such acts of evil. You cannot do and or effect any of this or what you have suggested, because you are not God. And thank God for that.

Nor do you know what you would actually do, if you were or could be God, knowing all that has ever been, is, and or will be from beginning to end. Therefore also approaching every issue from such knowledge, in consideration of all creation not just humanity, including the eternal effects of each and every action you might or might not take. Just like the rest of us, you have no clue at all, what you would really do with such knowledge and ultimate power. Especially regarding freedom of choice, in effecting real live individualism of and among autonomous intellectual social beings, that may exist in relation to each other and Yourself (as God), without fear.

You are not God. You will not ever be God. You do not know better than God. You are not better than God. Nor are you even capable of seeing what God can and does in relation to making proper decisions and effect for all things He has created. You simply lack faith in God, and therefore place your faith elsewhere, in the case within yourself as wiser and better than God. The original sin of the evil one, and all of fallen humanity who choose to follow him.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

You are not at all the first to think they know and are better than God. The whole present situation regarding sin and God, exists because a being far more advanced and knowledgable than yourself, already thought so and rebelled against God because of this. The effects of which God has and is allowing to be played out once and for all, that all effected may choose for themselves which side of the issue they fall within, that the issue may be decided once and for all time. An issue far greater than just its effects upon humanity, but critical concerning all of God's creation. Far beyond that which you or I or any other fallen human being are even capable of fully grasping, let alone deal with in an effective, all embracing, and eternal manner. In the end we will all bow the knee, including you, and confess God's righteous judgment and actions concerning all things related to this issue at hand.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Amo2]

Which is where I would act differently. Rather than kill myself in response people being raped I would use my hypothetical god power to stop people being raped in the first place.

A better solution for all concerned.

A solution which does not address the real problem, of changing people who would rape another into those who would never commit any such abuse against another. What would you stop at rape? What about all the other abuses? surely then you would prevent them as well, would you not? And what would such accomplish? Would it change those who would commit such acts, or simply have them living in fear of doing that which they wish to do, for eternity. What kind of torturous existence would that represent, being prevented continuously throughout eternity from doing that which you really wish to do? No, but by the superior knowledge, foresight, character, righteousness, holiness, benevolence, and love of God, the situation will be exposed for what it truly is. Addressed in every particular. Dealt with and resolved for all eternity. So that any instance of such in the future can and will be dealt with immediately and resolutely without any need of further examination or trial, all of creation already fully knowing and understanding why. As God will have already proved His rightful and benevolent authority beyond all doubt. While all those who actually were saved from their wrongful rebellion against God's righteous and pure authority, will stand as eternal living witnesses to the very fact of God's proved holy character, against all future false claims against it. Amen!

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Larniavc]

No, there would not be zero rapes if were you in control,

Why not?

 

[Amo2]

How much choice is there in Heaven?

Enough for the highest angel in heaven to rebel against God through false accusations against His character, and take a third of the angels with him.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born..................................................
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Amo2]

The Bible clearly states the circumstances for which a rape victim is to be killed due to being raped.

No it does not.

Deu 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

The verse under examination does not men lion force at all, you are presuming it upon the verse. The following verse which does actually address forced sex, rape, does not call for the death penalty or any penalty upon the raped. Only the death of the rapist. The assumption of the above quoted verse is that the women was not raped, as she did not cry out for help. Therefore being considered guilty of fornication, not of being raped. The issues of course would be more thoroughly examined considering the particulars of the case, before a decision would be made. Just as the issues would have to be more closely examined if or when a woman accused a man of rape, which apparently no one witnessed, before just killing the accused rapist, as described in the following verse immediately after those quoted above.

Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

 

[Amo2]

Why not?

Because you are not God, and could not prevent anything happening apart from that right around you. As suggested in the full context of that which I wrote. If you would care to consider things presented to you in their full context.

 

[Larniavc]

What kind of torturous existence would that represent, being prevented continuously throughout eternity from doing that which you really wish to do?

I think you are missing the point. I would (hypothetically) instil within a he potential rapist zero desire to rape.

Boom. Problem solved. No one needs to suffer.

 

[Larniavc]

The verse under examination does not men lion force at all, you are presuming it upon the verse.

Sure. Tell yourself that a raped woman will voluntarily give themselves over to death by stoning if you like.

 

[Larniavc]

Enough for the highest angel in heaven to rebel against God through false accusations against His character, and take a third of the angels with him.

So rapes can happen in Heaven?