Can we talk about ADHD... and such ?

[RamiC]

Are mental illnesses somehow less medical than physical diseases?

When you say "mental illness" I assume you mean a disease of the mind. What, in modern scientific terms, is the mind?

All "physical" diseases actually refer to some body part or biological system that can be seen and tested with objective scientific methods.
The contents of DSM-V predominantly do not, they refer to a body part which does not physically exist, the mind, and there is no objective means by which a "normal mind" has been identified.

"misdiagnosis rates reached 65.9% for major depressive disorder, 92.7% for bipolar disorder, 85.8% for panic disorder, 71.0% for generalized anxiety disorder, and 97.8% for social anxiety disorder."

"Consumers" may be perplexed as to why providers using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-Edition 5) sometimes can't match the criteria listed with distinct mental disorders...

However, a key factor may be the limited time period that most people with mental health problems have with providers. Most complicated mental diagnostic categories require long-term interaction with the client and the ability to pick up on nuances in behavior and recollections.

Unfortunately, many clients don't know the specific language to use that reflects the medical criteria in the DSM, and so medical symptoms are sometimes not communicated clearly. Furthermore, many symptoms of mental health conditions overlap." from here No Shame On U — The Misdiagnosis of Severe Mental Health Disorders

These numbers are huge, they are error rates, and they exist because there is a significant lack of science applicable to "mental health" compared to all other medical problems. So, less medical or not, there is a big problem with objectivity in diagnosis and therefore any effective help, while the patients continue to suffer and be at risk of real harm.

Please note - to all who have mental health problems - do not suddenly stop taking your medication, if you wish to cease taking it, get proffessional help, I believe your suffering is real, and I do not mean that you just lack faith. Whatever you are living with or in, Jesus cares.

 

[Fervent]

So many claim the condition, that its occurrence is almost expected.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I am not opposed to medicine.

Ok

Mental conditions are not always physiological.

There's always a physiological element to them. And the treatment is between the patients and their doctors.

 

[Fervent]

When you say "mental illness" I assume you mean a disease of the mind. What, in modern scientific terms, is the mind?

There's certainly more to it than is often admitted, but there's always some brain dysfunction that is present in mental illnesses.

All "physical" diseases actually refer to some body part or biological system that can be seen and tested with objective scientific methods.
The contents of DSM-V predominantly do not, they refer to a body part which does not physically exist, the mind, and there is no objective means by which a "normal mind" has been identified.'

The mind is very closely associated with the brain, which is a physical organ.

"misdiagnosis rates reached 65.9% for major depressive disorder, 92.7% for bipolar disorder, 85.8% for panic disorder, 71.0% for generalized anxiety disorder, and 97.8% for social anxiety disorder."

"Consumers" may be perplexed as to why providers using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-Edition 5) sometimes can't match the criteria listed with distinct mental disorders...

However, a key factor may be the limited time period that most people with mental health problems have with providers. Most complicated mental diagnostic categories require long-term interaction with the client and the ability to pick up on nuances in behavior and recollections.

Unfortunately, many clients don't know the specific language to use that reflects the medical criteria in the DSM, and so medical symptoms are sometimes not communicated clearly. Furthermore, many symptoms of mental health conditions overlap." from here No Shame On U — The Misdiagnosis of Severe Mental Health Disorders

How were those numbers arrived at, and what characterized 'misdiagnosis"?

These numbers are huge, they are error rates, and they exist because there is a significant lack of science applicable to "mental health" compared to all other medical problems. So, less medical or not, there is a big problem with objectivity in diagnosis and therefore any effective help, while the patients continue to suffer and be at risk of real harm.

Where did those numbers come from?

Please note - to all who have mental health problems - do not suddenly stop taking your medication, if you wish to cease taking it, get proffessional help, I believe your suffering is real, and I do not mean that you just lack faith. Whatever you are living with or in, Jesus cares.

You seem to be contradicting yourself with this, since the tone of the rest of your post seems to be in the vein of denying the reality of mental illness and the abilities of the professionals to properly treat it.

 

[RamiC]

There's certainly more to it than is often admitted, but there's always some brain dysfunction that is present in mental illnesses.

You have not provided any science based explanation as to what the mind is yet, and without any objective definition of "normal" there is no telling what functional verses dysfunctional is.

The mind is very closely associated with the brain, which is a physical organ.

If it is about the brain, it is neurology, but you are saying this association exists without an answer regarding what the "mind" that is associated with the brain is. A brain scan can show proof of strong emotion, we know this can also be seen in the form of chemical changes to the blood, but that does not make the shock of bereavement and experience of grief a brain dysfunction that needs to be called a "disease" and cured with a pill. So what I am saying is that brain activity is our lives on earth being lived, that is the scientific, medical, definition of life.

How were those numbers arrived at, and what characterized 'misdiagnosis"?

Where did those numbers come from?

There is a link in my post, to the article I was quoting, I provided my source.

You seem to be contradicting yourself with this, since the tone of the rest of your post seems to be in the vein of denying the reality of mental illness and the abilities of the professionals to properly treat it.

Oh I have questions about the success rates of treating many conditions that are called "mental health problems" yes. I just do not want anybody reading this thread to do anything too dangerous or sudden because of it. The fact that it is dangerous to suddenly stop taking mental health medication is known, the risk applies regardless of the poor rates of accurate diagnosis, inadequate pathology, the harm done by medicalising human emotional responses to life events, and the low rates of actually being able to cure any mental health condition (that is by comparison to Dr's ability to actually define, identify conditions, and provide cures in other medical specialties).

I care deeply about the entirely real sufferring, hence my concerns about the situation as it presently is, and my interest in the possibilties for accurate knowledge and effective solutions. I do not believe that all human suffering has to be "medical", physiological, or even identifiable by scientific methods to be absolutely real. There is a difference between believing that psychology and psychiatry are getting everything right, and caring about the increasing and already great amounts of mind related suffering people are clearly experiencing. As a society, I believe we must start defeating the high rates of mental and emotional struggles that are happening, I just do not see enough objective evidence that labels and psychoactive drugs are a safe or effective way to acheive that in a lot of cases.

Please note - to all who have mental health problems - do not suddenly stop taking your medication, if you wish to cease taking it, get proffessional help, I believe your suffering is real, and I do not mean that you just lack faith. Whatever you are living with or in, Jesus cares.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes

Yes, and while I do not believe that instant miraculous cures for everything would be the standard, nor should they necessarily be, but oh yes, if people understood that Jesus' loves us and awareness of that could solve so, so much. No pill can fix an error understanding the Lord, and most mental health help is not even trying to resolve matters of understanding Jesus, His love is not archaic, it is eternal.


No you are not. I am looking for people to share this stuff with face to face in real life. Please feel free to be praying for me.


Please note - to all who have mental health problems - do not suddenly stop taking your medication, if you wish to cease taking it, get proffessional help, I believe your suffering is real, and I do not mean that you just lack faith. Whatever you are living with or in, Jesus cares.

I am a survivor of ECT radically returned to faith and healed over a seven year period (that was 50 years ago, no medication, no relapse) - I would be happy to have a video call with you if that would help.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Ok

There's always a physiological element to them. And the treatment is between the patients and their doctors.

Sometimes the root cause of mental health is spiritual - that is why we see Christian Psychiatrists in our country leaving the profession so they can deal with the spiritual cause as Christian Counsellors.
They have concluded they are not dealing with a physical cause.

Controlling symptoms with medication may bring relief, but the primary cause is often left untouched.

 

[Fervent]

Sometimes the root cause of mental health is spiritual - that is why we see Christian Psychiatrists in our country leaving the profession so they can deal with the spiritual cause as Christian Counsellors.
They have concluded they are not dealing with a physical cause.

Who concluded that? What are their credentials? And how did they come to their conclusions?

Controlling symptoms with medication may bring relief, but the primary cause is often left untouched.

If medication alleviates symptoms, that demonstrates the physiological basis. Medication is one avenue of multifaceted treatment.

But it is extremely damaging to people who actually have to live with these conditions to trivialize them and add to the stigma by ignoring the physiological element.

 

[Fervent]

You have not provided any science based explanation as to what the mind is yet, and without any objective definition of "normal" there is no telling what functional verses dysfunctional is.

This is nonsense, I stated what science recognizes as the mind in its close association with brain structures.

If it is about the brain, it is neurology, but you are saying this association exists without an answer regarding what the "mind" that is associated with the brain is. A brain scan can show proof of strong emotion, we know this can also be seen in the form of chemical changes to the blood, but that does not make the shock of bereavement and experience of grief a brain dysfunction that needs to be called a "disease" and cured with a pill. So what I am saying is that brain activity is our lives on earth being lived, that is the scientific, medical, definition of life.

As far as science is concerned, the brain and mind are synonymous. Because science only deals with empirical questions, not introspective ones.

There is a link in my post, to the article I was quoting, I provided my source.

You seem to be misunderstanding what it's saying there, because it's stating that these mental illnesses are often missed and given different diagnoses.

Oh I have questions about the success rates of treating many conditions that are called "mental health problems" yes. I just do not want anybody reading this thread to do anything too dangerous or sudden because of it. The fact that it is dangerous to suddenly stop taking mental health medication is known, the risk applies regardless of the poor rates of accurate diagnosis, inadequate pathology, the harm done by medicalising human emotional responses to life events, and the low rates of actually being able to cure any mental health condition (that is by comparison to Dr's ability to actually define, identify conditions, and provide cures in other medical specialties).

Improving awareness of the associated symptoms of various mental health conditions among general practitioners to improve accurate diagnoses is far removed from what you seem to be trying to argue. From what I can gather, you're speaking on things which you have little personal experience and are misunderstanding studiies conclusions through deceptive quotation.

I care deeply about the entirely real sufferring, hence my concerns about the situation as it presently is, and my interest in the possibilties for accurate knowledge and effective solutions. I do not believe that all human suffering has to be "medical", physiological, or even identifiable by scientific methods to be absolutely real. There is a difference between believing that psychology and psychiatry are getting everything right, and caring about the increasing and already great amounts of mind related suffering people are clearly experiencing. As a society, I believe we must start defeating the high rates of mental and emotional struggles that are happening, I just do not see enough objective evidence that labels and psychoactive drugs are a safe or effective way to acheive that in a lot of cases.

Please note - to all who have mental health problems - do not suddenly stop taking your medication, if you wish to cease taking it, get proffessional help, I believe your suffering is real, and I do not mean that you just lack faith. Whatever you are living with or in, Jesus cares.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Who concluded that? What are their credentials? And how did they come to their conclusions?

Casual conversations with folks at one of our bible colleges.

Also I was supporting a Christian Psychiatrist who wrote a paper on this subject and was deregistered for a period.

 

[Fervent]

Casual conversations with folks at one of our bible colleges.

Which question is that in answer to?

Also I was supporting a Christian Psychiatrist who wrote a paper on this subject and was deregistered for a period.

Deregistered as a psychiatrist? What was the basis of the paper?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Is anyone else concerned about the rise of 'modern' conditions that grip lives and ensnare them in pharmaceutical dependence at great expense ?

In our country - just to get an official diagnosis for ADHD from a Psychiatrist will cost you around $2000. This is required before you get access to any med's.

Stepping back - this generation is subject to more stress than any other since WW2.

It seems the human condition trying to survive under pressure shuts down as a survival response.

These 'symptoms' are picked up by the medics and bingo another serious source of profit.

At the same time, believers have access to the redemption of the soul through the Cross, including healing and deliverance - but not many seem to access this because the modern theology has moved on from these 'archaic beliefs'.

"Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed" is rarely activated.

Am I the only one concerned about this ?

I recall people were talking about ADD when there was regular TV.

When HD TV came out, then they started talking about ADHD.

Maybe a coincidence. . .

 

[rebornfree]

Recently I watched an episode of The Diary of A CEO (great YouTube channel by the way) with special guest Erica Komisar. The video is entitled Child Attachment Expert: We're Stressing Newborns & It's Causing ADHD! Hidden Dangers Of Daycare!

Unfortunately I can’t link it here because the video contains profanity in the first 3 minutes. But if you’re willing to brave that, it’s worth the watch.

At about 1 hour, Komisar links ADHD to early childhood stressors. According to her, children are supposed to be with their mothers for their first three years of life. Separating them from their mother by putting them in daycare is a stressor that is harmful for them, causing the amygdala to expand to a huge size and shrink, which leaves the child to suffer a lifetime of emotional dysregulation, because their amygdala cannot regulate their stress response, which leads to ADHD symptoms. “It’s like a PTSD response.” Komisar says.

And it’s not just Komisar. I read a small book on natural treatments for A.D.D. that mentioned chamomile as treatment. Chamomile is a sedative, which knocks down anger and fear responses. I tried that because I was having trouble with focus myself, and suddenly I noticed a reduction in my trauma symptoms as well. This anecdote really pushes me to agree with Komisar’s findings: it’s all trauma.

Komisar also links this trauma to poor parenting, lack of mothers and fathers for children, and the key role of the mother in first few years of a child’s life.

I certainly agree with you about the importance of mothers in infancy. This is something I experienced myself, over 70 years ago. I had a wonderful mother but she didn't come into my life until I was nearly a year old. She and my father adopted me six months later.

In adult life, especially after her death, I suffered severe depression. I became very dependent on boyfriends (I'm female) and later my husband. It tended to drive them away. After my ex-husband left, depressive symptoms were particularly bad. The Lord showed me, through people praying and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, that I had lacked maternal care as a baby, and current distresses were triggering those emotional memories. They are free floating as a baby has no language in which to interpret and process them.

Since then the Lord led me to do a psychology degree and I discovered the whole body of work on attachment issues, pioneered by John Bowlby. He had researched post WWII juvenile delnquincy and found a correlation to lack of maternal care.

I believe that the Lord can heal mental and emotional issues but he told me that my healing would be gradual. I think that adjustment is a process. He also used secular sources, but I prayed about all the treatments I had and looked to Him for the healing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Deregistered as a psychiatrist? What was the basis of the paper?

Offering a Christian framework within which to approach psychiatric therapy which recognised a possible spiritual component in the cause.

 

[Fervent]

Offering a Christian framework within which to approach psychiatric therapy which recognised a possible spiritual component in the cause.

I find it odd that such a paper would get her deregistered, as it's been my experience that the care teams I've engaged with primarily concern themselves with whatever works in treatment. Which in my case has been involving spiritual care as part of a larger care matrix.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which question is that in answer to?

You asked about the Christian Psychiatrists leaving the profession because they realised clients presented conditions that had a spiritual root. These were at a Bible College seeking to transition with the qualifications needed for them to practice as Christian Counsellors.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I find it odd that such a paper would get her deregistered, as it's been my experience that the care teams I've engaged with primarily concern themselves with whatever works in treatment. Which in my case has been involving spiritual care as part of a larger care matrix.

This was over 30 years ago.

Why would you assume I was referring to a female ?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yepp, it's all television's fault.

Oh wait, aren't we currently typing into a glowing screen also?

so it goes ...

 

[Fervent]

Yepp, it's all television's fault.

Oh wait, aren't we currently typing into a glowing screen also?

so it goes ...

turn on, tune in, drop out, amirite?