The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[RandyPNW]

Paul came after Christ ratified His covenant. God's laws went from external written on stone to enteral written on the heart 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10 not breaking His promise not to alter His covenant Psa 89:34 Mat5:18 so Paul does not have any authority to dismiss one of God's written and spoken commandments and is part of God's Testimony that's sits under God's mercy seat in Heaven Rev15:5 Rev11:19

So, you think Paul was not an apostle? Paul was an apostle and spoke authoritatively when he indicated that the Covenant of Law had its requirements "nailed to the tree."

Now, we get our righteousness from Christ, and not from obeying the requirements of the Law of Moses. We don't have to keep Sabbath Law, or Festival laws, or cleansing laws, or atonement laws.

We have a new priesthood, temple, and sacrifice by which we obtain our righteousness. And it is in Christ--not by what we do under the Law of Moses, which was only for Israel in the era before Christ's death.

The New Covenant, as under the Old Covenant, required observance *from the heart.* I don't know why you think that only the New Covenant requires this? Perhaps it is because the prophecy of the New Covenant, being applied to Israel in the future, indicates that Israel must have their heart changed in order to satisfy the New Covenant?

As I told you, *all* of God's covenants require obedience from the heart. The only reason the prophecy specifies the need for Israel's heart to be changed, in order to receive the New Covenant, is because in the current age Israel's heart is hardened and needs to be changed in order for the nation to be saved.

Many misunderstand Paul and in doing so by not reconciling Paul's writings to Jesus, came with a salvation warning 2Peter3:16 when taken out of context. Jesus warned us not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat5:19 Paul is not undermining Jesus who is God. As if man can reverse God's blessing and God's sanctification.

You are undermining what Matt 5 teaches us about the Law. Jesus said this, in context, to *Israel* and he said it in a time *before the cross!* You are completely ignoring that!

If you want to learn from what Jesus was saying here, understand that what Jesus taught while under the Law can inform us under the New Covenant as long as we understand the change from OT to NT. Under the NT we have to uphold the perfection of Christ, just as Israel, under the Law, had to uphold every requirement of the Law.

This isn't a matter of our perfection, but of our need to acknowledge Christ's perfection, who is our standard of righteousness. If we live by Christ we are in fact living by God's perfect standard.

Many confuse the annual feasts days that some were annual sabbaths that have to do with food and drink offerings the context of this passage with one of God's Ten Commandments. I personally would not want to remove something God's covers with His mercy Exo20:6 but God gives us free will.

Yes, you have free will to ignore Paul.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So, you think Paul was not an apostle? Paul was an apostle and spoke authoritatively when he indicated that the Covenant of Law had its requirements "nailed to the tree."

Now, we get our righteousness from Christ, and not from obeying the requirements of the Law of Moses. We don't have to keep Sabbath Law, or Festival laws, or cleansing laws, or atonement laws.

We have a new priesthood, temple, and sacrifice by which we obtain our righteousness. And it is in Christ--not by what we do under the Law of Moses, which was only for Israel in the era before Christ's death.

The New Covenant, as under the Old Covenant, required observance *from the heart.* I don't know why you think that only the New Covenant requires this? Perhaps it is because the prophecy of the New Covenant, being applied to Israel in the future, indicates that Israel must have their heart changed in order to satisfy the New Covenant?

As I told you, *all* of God's covenants require obedience from the heart. The only reason the prophecy specifies the need for Israel's heart to be changed, in order to receive the New Covenant, is because in the current age Israel's heart is hardened and needs to be changed in order for the nation to be saved.

You are undermining what Matt 5 teaches us about the Law. Jesus said this, in context, to *Israel* and he said it in a time *before the cross!* You are completely ignoring that!

If you want to learn from what Jesus was saying here, understand that what Jesus taught while under the Law can inform us under the New Covenant as long as we understand the change from OT to NT. Under the NT we have to uphold the perfection of Christ, just as Israel, under the Law, had to uphold every requirement of the Law.

This isn't a matter of our perfection, but of our need to acknowledge Christ's perfection, who is our standard of righteousness. If we live by Christ we are in fact living by God's perfect standard.

Yes, you have free will to ignore Paul.

I see a lot of opinions here, too much to even try to sort through and saying things I never said or even indicated. I think when Jesus said "WHOEVER" Mat5:19 means just that. Guess everything will get sorted out soon enough.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

(Adding to your point)

1. Both the Old and New Testaments tell us not to add to or take away from the commandments.

Old Testament:​

​

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.​

​

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.​

​

New Testament:​

​

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

​

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

2. Both the Old and New Testaments prophesy the adding to or taking away from the commandments.

Daniel:​

​

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

​

Paul:​

​

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

​

Strong's G646 a falling away (apostasia): defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.​

​

What then is the truth?​

​

3. The commandments are the truth.

Psalm 119:151 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth.​

​

2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father.​

​

4. Breaking the commandments is untruth.

​

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.​

​

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.​

​

Conclusion: The commandments stand as eternal truth.

Thanks Freth! Great post. You can add on to my posts anytime.

When we start editing God's Testimony Exo31:18 Deut4:13 written by God that is placed under His mercy seat revealed in heaven Rev15:5 Rev11:19 when He said He would not Psa89:34 Mat5:18 we need to really consider who are we following.

Happy Sabbath!

 

[RandyPNW]

(Adding to your point)

1. Both the Old and New Testaments tell us not to add to or take away from the commandments.

It depends which commandments you're speaking of. There are commandments associated with the Old Covenant, and commandments associated with the New Covenant. They are not the same.

New Testament:​

​

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

Mat 5 is speaking not of the New Covenant but of the Old Covenant. You err here by calling this New Covenant, or New Testament.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.​

This is not saying to Christians not to liberalize NT laws. It is saying that the Antichrist will oppose Christian law, along with a general movement in that direction, ie the "apostasy."

It is a wholesale abandonment of Christianity, as opposed to a relaxation of Christian commandments, or omitting a particular truth of Scripture.Conclusion: The commandments stand as eternal truth.

You seem to be trying to prove, weakly, that the Law and the New Covenant are the same "commandments," purely because both are called "commandments." But every religion and each covenant has its own "commandments," and they are certainly not the same set of commandments. Your claim fails terribly!

 

[RandyPNW]

I see a lot of opinions here, too much to even try to sort through and saying things I never said or even indicated. I think when Jesus said "WHOEVER" Mat5:19 means just that. Guess everything will get sorted out soon enough.

I would ensure that your position is in agreement with what the NT teaches, and with what Paul teaches regarding the Law. You completely ignore that while insisting on teaching the need to observe OT law and the Sabbath law.

Just saying you can't "sort through" these points does not give you the right to spout off info that is in my view clearly heretical.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would ensure that your position is in agreement with what the NT teaches, and with what Paul teaches regarding the Law. You completely ignore that while insisting on teaching the need to observe OT law and the Sabbath law.

Just saying you can't "sort through" these points does not give you the right to spout off info that is in my view clearly heretical.

I never said I could not sort through these points. I think you need to be careful adding to what people are saying and perhaps even worse, doing the same to the Scriptures, since I never see you actually post Scriptures. I have learned its hard to reason when one uses their words as if its equal to God’s Word.

I have sorted through these points too many times to count, but I’ll post it here for people who want to look a little deeper at what Paul is saying.

So let’s bring more context into Col 2:16-17. There are more than one sabbath in the Scripture. Paul was told to spread the gospel, not change God's commandments written by God Himself, that God promised He would not alter. Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 If we look at the context closely its obvious Paul is not contradicting Jesus who is God on His holy Sabbath- God's own Testimony, that is in heaven Exo 15:5 Rev 11:19 where His word is settled Psa 119:89. God blessed, man cannot take away God's blessing or sanctification. Almost all Scripture on the Sabbath has a thus saith the Lord- God blessed, man cannot reverse Num 23:20 and Paul's writings came with a significant warning 2 Peter 3:16 so we must be very careful with his writings and compare it to other Scriptures, such a Jesus own testimony saying His Sabbath would not end at the Cross but His faithful would be keeping 40 years after Mat 24:20 and also for eternity Isa 66:23


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So these are things that are against man. Is the Sabbath that is holy, sanctified and blessed by God against man?

Lets look at what Jesus said:

Mat 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man

The Sabbath was made for man, what God makes for man is not against us. The Sabbath is blessed and sanctified by God, its not the definition of contrary and against.

Context doesn't fit. Basically with this understanding it is saying God was against man from Creation and made the Sabbath to be contrary and against right from the beginning. This is a very sad teaching and one not coming from God. God made Creation according to His perfect will and plan when the Sabbath started Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 made for man Mark 2:27

So looking at the immediate context shows clearly Paul is not speaking of the Sabbath commandment. Nor does Paul have the authority to change God's written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 the words of the covenant Exo 34:28 that God promised He would not alter Psa 89:34 they went from written on tables of stone to written on tablets of the heart 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.

Right here is enough to know Paul is not referring to the Sabbath commandment, but lets keep going.

This is what Paul is quoting the law he is referring to is from

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

The laws that were beside the ark of the Covenant handwritten by Moses, there as a witness against, the context of Col 2:14


But lets look at this verse closer

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

Why if you look at the next verse it clearly shows what it is referring to which works in perfect harmony with the context

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. (contrary and against)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Exo 12:17 43 So the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover:
1Co 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

There is so much more evidence I could provide like comparing what Jesus said which in using Col 2:14-16 against the Sabbath commandment contradicts His teachings. Hopefully this will be looked at in prayer as I know this is a popular teaching, but the context does not fit the Sabbath commandment written by the finger of God that is part of God's holy and eternal law Mat 5:18-19 Isa 66:23

 

[Freth]

You seem to be trying to prove, weakly, that the Law and the New Covenant are the same "commandments," purely because both are called "commandments." But every religion and each covenant has its own "commandments," and they are certainly not the same set of commandments. Your claim fails terribly!

These are solid statements concerning the commandments.

• Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [Or as Luke worded it:] Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
• Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
• Psalms 111:7-8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

The Ten:

	Old Testament	New Testament
First Commandment	Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 5:7	Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7
Second Commandment	Exodus 20:4-6; Deuteronomy 5:8-10	John 4:23; Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5
Third Commandment	Exodus 20:7; Deuteronomy 5:11	Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; 5:12
Fourth Commandment	Exodus 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15	Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6
Fifth Commandment	Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16	Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3
Sixth Commandment	Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17	Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9
Seventh Commandment	Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18	Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9
Eighth Commandment	Exodus 20:15; Deuteronomy 5:19	Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21
Ninth Commandment	Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20	Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25
Tenth Commandment	Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21	Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

 

[RandyPNW]

These are solid statements concerning the commandments.

• Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [Or as Luke worded it:] Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

As I told you, Matt 5 is relating Jesus' teaching to Israel on the Law of Moses--not the New Covenant. Jesus' earthly ministry was under the Law and before the cross. You are just ignoring that point.

The Ten:

	Old Testament	New Testament
First Commandment	Exodus 20:3; Deuteronomy 5:7	Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7
Second Commandment	Exodus 20:4-6; Deuteronomy 5:8-10	John 4:23; Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5; Colossians 3:5
Third Commandment	Exodus 20:7; Deuteronomy 5:11	Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; 5:12
Fourth Commandment	Exodus 20:8-11; Deuteronomy 5:12-15	Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6
Fifth Commandment	Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16	Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3
Sixth Commandment	Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17	Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9
Seventh Commandment	Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18	Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9
Eighth Commandment	Exodus 20:15; Deuteronomy 5:19	Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21
Ninth Commandment	Exodus 20:16; Deuteronomy 5:20	Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25
Tenth Commandment	Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21	Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5

When you quote from the Gospels Jesus may would refer to the Law of Moses because at that time Israel was still under the Law. This did not identify the Law as the New Covenant.

Your quotes from Paul would identify the same God and the same holiness that is shared by both covenants. Jesus' own righteousness does relate to the righteousness of the Law, though it is independent of the Law.

For example, Jesus own perfect love relates to the love for God commanded under the Law. But Jesus' love is independent of the Law as an entire covenant system, requiring temple, priests, and sacrificial animals. Jesus' love did not require temple, priests, and sacrificial animals. He was the priest, temple, and sacrifice of the New Testament.

This does not mean the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same--just that they share some laws and principles. Paul explains what laws are not to be observed in the NT era. Laws that are concerned with the temple, the priesthood, and the animal sacrifices were purely foreshadowing Christ. We only follow laws that relate to Christ whose righteousness stands apart from the Law.

In other words, anything under the Law that is not just foreshadowing Christ, but actually speaks of his righteousness and nature is what we follow--not the shadows that portray him and were lived out by flawed observers of the Law.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus gave his disciples a new commandment - to love one another as Jesus loved them - that is the commandment that the faithful fulfil in the Apocalypse of saint John.

 

[RandyPNW]

I never said I could not sort through these points.

You said what you said.

I think you need to be careful adding to what people are saying and perhaps even worse, doing the same to the Scriptures, since I never see you actually post Scriptures. I have learned its hard to reason when one uses their words as if its equal to God’s Word.

What a stretch! You said, "I see a lot of opinions here, too much to even try to sort through and saying things I never said or even indicated." And now you try to condemn me for inferring from this that you didn't want to "sort through these points?" Even worse, from this you deduce that I read things into the Scriptures? Baloney.

I have sorted through these points too many times to count, but I’ll post it here for people who want to look a little deeper at what Paul is saying.

Oh, I've already dealt with you before, and others like you. The Scriptures say that we are not under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses. However, that Law does inform us about what Christ would look like using "shadows."

We don't follow shadows--we only follow Christ. Paul condemned those who would put us back under the Law. Those who simply wanted to observe Jewish festivals because they were Jews Paul allowed to happen, because they were cultural and not a matter of law.

So let’s bring more context into Col 2:16-17. There are more than one sabbath in the Scripture. Paul was told to spread the gospel, not change God's commandments written by God Himself, that God promised He would not alter.

Where is this in the passage, that Paul was not told to "change God's commandments" in the Law? It seems like you're making things up, rather than proving things from Scriptures as you claimed you would?

Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 If we look at the context closely its obvious Paul is not contradicting Jesus who is God on His holy Sabbath- God's own Testimony, that is in heaven Exo 15:5 Rev 11:19 where His word is settled Psa 119:89.

None of these passages prove your point, that Paul upheld Sabbath observance. Reciting OT passages or reciting the Gospels where Jesus is still under the Law does not prove anything with respect to New Covenant law!

God blessed, man cannot take away God's blessing or sanctification. Almost all Scripture on the Sabbath has a thus saith the Lord- God blessed, man cannot reverse Num 23:20

God's blessing upon Israel does not prove anything with respect to New Covenant law! Where is the fulfillment of your promise to prove from the Scriptures that Sabbath observance is still being required?

Quite the opposite, you referred to Colossians 2 where Paul said the exact opposite, that we are not under Sabbath observance. You just declare, without evidence, that there is more than one set of Sabbath requirements that Paul is talking about. Or, perhaps you are recognizing that there are different elements to the entire set of Sabbath requirements? Regardless, Paul in Col 2 rejected the entire set of Sabbath requirements.

and Paul's writings came with a significant warning 2 Peter 3:16 so we must be very careful with his writings and compare it to other Scriptures, such a Jesus own testimony saying His Sabbath would not end at the Cross but His faithful would be keeping 40 years after Mat 24:20 and also for eternity Isa 66:23

There is zero proof of what you promised to prove from Scriptures here.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So these are things that are against man. Is the Sabbath that is holy, sanctified and blessed by God against man?

You are trying to use proof texts that are against your position to prove your position! What audatious means you use, to use texts that state the opposite of what you claim.

Lets look at what Jesus said:

Mat 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man

The Sabbath was made for man, what God makes for man is not against us. The Sabbath is blessed and sanctified by God, its not the definition of contrary and against.

The fact Sabbath was made for man does not contradict the fact it was given to Israel *before the cross.*

So looking at the immediate context shows clearly Paul is not speaking of the Sabbath commandment.

Nothing in the immediate context shows Paul speaking of anything other than the Sabbath commandment,

Nor does Paul have the authority to change God's written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 the words of the covenant Exo 34:28 that God promised He would not alter Psa 89:34 they went from written on tables of stone to written on tablets of the heart 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.

You are using OT citations under the Law and NT promises to prove Sabbath law is still in effect? That does not follow--non sequitur. The OT is the OT, and NT promises are NT promises. None of this means Sabbath observance is still in effect in the NT era.

The Greek word for sabbath here is plural not singular. So its not speaking of "The" Sabbath day "The holy day of the Lord" as already seen in the context.

Well, the Sabbath laws were varied, but they would all come under the heading of "Sabbath requirements."

The fact that laws were kept in the ark has no bearing at all. The ark was part of the temple, which was destroyed and was part of the Law.

Jesus is the new and eternal temple. His obedience is within him, and in nobody else except by extension of grace.

Paul is quoting Ezekiel all of the sacrifices and offerings.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and theburnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Where did Paul quote Ezekiel? There is no mention of Ezekiel in Paul's statement in Col 2.

What was predicted would end when Jesus came?

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

So this is not about any of the Ten Commandments but about the food and drink offerings, feast days that some were also annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses placed besides the ark of the covenant that came after the fall of man. The Sabbath started at Creation before sin Exo 20:11 so can't be a "shadow" of anything as it is part of God's perfect plan before sin took over and a need for a plan of salvation.

This is a different argument. It seems you're admitting that the sacrifices and offerings came to an end at Christ's crucifixion. That's when *all* of the requirements of the Law were nailed to the crosss.

But now you're arguing for God's rest after creation. That is not what Paul was talking about. He was talking about Sabbath Law under the Law of Moses. Not the same thing.

Israel was given the Sabbath Law as an acknowledgement of God as Creator who rested on the 7th day. But that was God's Sabbath--not Israel's Sabbath. Israel had their own Sabbath to show their recognition of God's Sabbath.

There is so much more evidence I could provide like comparing what Jesus said which in using Col 2:14-16 against the Sabbath commandment contradicts His teachings.

You haven't provided any evidence at all that Paul rejected Sabbath observance as under the Law of Moses. Nothing is more clear in Paul's writings than he was opposed to anybody who tried to reimpose the requirements of the Law upon anybody.

And if in your attempt to reinstate Sabbath Law you're trying to reestablish the authority of the Law of Moses Paul would condemn you. You'll never find your obedience accepted if it is not under authority of Christ. And Christ's forgiveness is free, and not under the Law of Moses.

If you want to observe Sabbath Day as a custom feel free. But you're not free to require any aspect of the Law of Moses. It is passe.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You said what you said.

What a stretch! You said, "I see a lot of opinions here, too much to even try to sort through and saying things I never said or even indicated." And now you try to condemn me for inferring from this that you didn't want to "sort through these points?" Even worse, from this you deduce that I read things into the Scriptures? Baloney.

Oh, I've already dealt with you before, and others like you. The Scriptures say that we are not under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses. However, that Law does inform us about what Christ would look like using "shadows."

We don't follow shadows--we only follow Christ. Paul condemned those who would put us back under the Law. Those who simply wanted to observe Jewish festivals because they were Jews Paul allowed to happen, because they were cultural and not a matter of law.

Where is this in the passage, that Paul was not told to "change God's commandments" in the Law? It seems like you're making things up, rather than proving things from Scriptures as you claimed you would?

None of these passages prove your point, that Paul upheld Sabbath observance. Reciting OT passages or reciting the Gospels where Jesus is still under the Law does not prove anything with respect to New Covenant law!

God's blessing upon Israel does not prove anything with respect to New Covenant law! Where is the fulfillment of your promise to prove from the Scriptures that Sabbath observance is still being required?

Quite the opposite, you referred to Colossians 2 where Paul said the exact opposite, that we are not under Sabbath observance. You just declare, without evidence, that there is more than one set of Sabbath requirements that Paul is talking about. Or, perhaps you are recognizing that there are different elements to the entire set of Sabbath requirements? Regardless, Paul in Col 2 rejected the entire set of Sabbath requirements.

There is zero proof of what you promised to prove from Scriptures here.

You are trying to use proof texts that are against your position to prove your position! What audatious means you use, to use texts that state the opposite of what you claim.

The fact Sabbath was made for man does not contradict the fact it was given to Israel *before the cross.*

Nothing in the immediate contet shows Paul speaking of anything other than the Sabbath commandment,

You are using OT citations under the Law and NT promises to prove Sabbath law is still in effect? That does not follow--non sequitur. The OT is the OT, and NT promises are NT promises. None of this means Sabbath observance is still in effect in the NT era.

Well, the Sabbath laws were varied, but they would all come under the heading of "Sabbath requirements."

The fact that laws were kept in the ark has no bearing at all. The ark was part of the temple, which was destroyed and was part of the Law.

Jesus is the new and eternal temple. His obedience is within him, and in nobody else except by extension of grace.

Where did Paul quote Ezekiel? There is no mention of Ezekiel in Paul's statement in Col 2.

This is a different argument. It seems you're admitting that the sacrifices and offerings came to an end at Christ's crucifixion. That's when *all* of the requirements of the Law were nailed to the crosss.

But now you're arguing for God's rest after creation. That is not what Paul was talking about. He was talking about Sabbath Law under the Law of Moses. Not the same thing.

Israel was given the Sabbath Law as an acknowledgement of God as Creator who rested on the 7th day. But that was God's Sabbath--not Israel's Sabbath. Israel had their own Sabbath to show their recognition of God's Sabbath.

You haven't provided any evidence at all that Paul rejected Sabbath observance as under the Law of Moses. Nothing is more clear in Paul's writings than he was opposed to anybody who tried to reimpose the requirements of the Law upon anybody.

And if in your attempt to reinstate Sabbath Law you're trying to reestablish the authority of the Law of Moses Paul would condemn you. You'll never find your obedience accepted if it is not under authority of Christ. And Christ's forgiveness is free, and not under the Law of Moses.

If you want to observe Sabbath Day as a custom feel free. But you're not free to require any aspect of the Law of Moses. It is passe.

As I said you can't reason when someone thinks their words are the same as Scriptures. Thanks for your thoughts. You will not find one Scripture that says the Sabbath is Moses and it started way before Moses Exo20:11. God claimed it as His- MY holy day. Isa58:13 made for everyone Mar2:27 Isa56:6 but sadly many reject God's sanctification Eze20:12 for their own Isa66:17


I'll leave it with agree to disagree

 

[Freth]

As I told you, Matt 5 is relating Jesus' teaching to Israel on the Law of Moses--not the New Covenant. Jesus' earthly ministry was under the Law and before the cross. You are just ignoring that point.

When you quote from the Gospels Jesus may would refer to the Law of Moses because at that time Israel was still under the Law. This did not identify the Law as the New Covenant.

Your quotes from Paul would identify the same God and the same holiness that is shared by both covenants. Jesus' own righteousness does relate to the righteousness of the Law, though it is independent of the Law.

For example, Jesus own perfect love relates to the love for God commanded under the Law. But Jesus' love is independent of the Law as an entire covenant system, requiring temple, priests, and sacrificial animals. Jesus' love did not require temple, priests, and sacrificial animals. He was the priest, temple, and sacrifice of the New Testament.

This does not mean the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same--just that they share some laws and principles. Paul explains what laws are not to be observed in the NT era. Laws that are concerned with the temple, the priesthood, and the animal sacrifices were purely foreshadowing Christ. We only follow laws that relate to Christ whose righteousness stands apart from the Law.

In other words, anything under the Law that is not just foreshadowing Christ, but actually speaks of his righteousness and nature is what we follow--not the shadows that portray him and were lived out by flawed observers of the Law.

Blotted Out/Nailed to the Cross

The book of the law:

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of [beside, not in] the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.​

• This book of the law
  • Placed beside the ark, not in it
  • A witness against thee

The handwriting of ordinances:

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.​

• The handwriting of ordinances
  • That was against us
  • Which was contrary to us

Paul is talking about the book of the law, not the Ten.

The Ten were written on tables of stone by the hand of God, lending utmost authority, while the book of the law was written by Moses.

Moses records that the book of the law was put, "in the side," or beside the ark. Moses also records that the tables of stone (the Ten) were put inside the ark.

Deuteronomy 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the Lord commanded me.​

If the book of the law/handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross, it does not negate the tables of stone whatsoever, as the tables were kept separate from the beginning.

The New Covenant

In the definition of the new covenant, we still find the call not to sin.

Hebrews 10:16-27 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.​

I already showed that the commandments are truth in a previous post. The truth doesn't change.

Sin is still transgression of the law of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

​

The wages of sin is still death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

The commandments of God still stand.

Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Til heaven and earth pass.

The very definition of the patience of the saints is the keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that [1]keep the commandments of God, and [2]the faith of Jesus.​

 

[Abraham1st]

sin was the transgression of the law, now sin is all who do not believe in the righteousness of Christ, see all of 1 John 3.

 

[Freth]

sin was the transgression of the law, now sin is all who do not believe in the righteousness of Christ, see all of 1 John 3.

Let's have a look.

1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Abraham1st]

Let's have a look.

1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

.. do those things that are PLEASING in his sight..


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Abraham1st]

freth, if you want to convince yourself against faith, that's OK, I addressed what I said to nobody, so why address yourself to me, thanks for your understanding.

 

[RandyPNW]

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.​

Paul is talking about the book of the law, not the Ten.

Wrong, Paul was talking about the whole Law--not just part of the Law. The 10 Commandments were a subset of the entire Law of Moses.

Obviously, the New Covenant draws upon the moral principles contained in the Law. But it is an *entirely different covenant.* If one wished to follow the Law of Moses, he could not just select the 10 Commandments--he had to follow all of the laws. One could not just select Sabbath Law to follow--he had to follow all of the laws, embracing temple law, priestly law, and sacrificial law.

By contrast, the New Covenant embraces Christ's own righteousness alone, and rejects all of the Law of Moses which he fulfilled in himself, and not in his observance of the Law. You don't just select the 10 Commandents or Sabbath Law to observe when you follow Christ. You only follow Christ and the love that was there in principle under the Law of Moses. It was the love of Christ himself, and not the obedience by flawed Israel under a law of temporary redemption.

If the book of the law/handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross, it does not negate the tables of stone whatsoever, as the tables were kept separate from the beginning.

Whatever was done under the Law was part of the Law--not extraneous to it. What was nailed to the cross was everything associated with the Law. It has all been negated for the sake of our complete forgiveness.

In the definition of the new covenant, we still find the call not to sin.

Yes, but the New Covenant does not define righteousness by observation of the Law. Its righteousness is defined by recognition of Christ's righteousness, independent of the Law. If our righteousness is by obedience to the Law, the Law testifies to us that we are lost.

I already showed that the commandments are truth in a previous post. The truth doesn't change.

The truth is that obedience to the Law condemns all of mankind without exceptions.

Sin is still transgression of the law of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.​

Yes, and so, the only way to avoid sin is through Christ's righteousness, and not by the righteousness of the Law. John was addressing the testimony of the Law against sin. But John also recognized that Eternal Life came by the Son of God. If we reject the Son of God that also defines the sin that leads to eternal death.

The commandments of God still stand.

The commandments of the Law of Moses do not still stand. They've been nailed to the cross so as to not condemn those who have placed their trust in Christ.

The commandments that still stand are the ones Christ commands us to do, which is to believe in him and to follow his word to our hearts. The entire Law was fulfilled in love. If we follow the love of Christ we will not have to follow a Law that condemns all of mankind. We will fulfill the righteousness of Christ, which the Law had pointed to.

Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Til heaven and earth pass.

I've already pointed out to you that Jesus said this while the Law was still in effect. It is *not* still in effect, as taught by all of the apostles, particularly Paul, who recognized that the Law had never been in effect for the nations. And so, Jesus affirmed the Law, with all of its 613 requirements or so, while that covenant was still in play.

But it is no longer in play for the nations, including Israel. The Law's purpose was to show that all of mankind is condemned if they do not demonstrate faith in Christ's way of righteousness, which is very different from the Law and not based on obedience to the Law.

Jesus was saying that while the Law was in effect, the Law was inviolable--as inviolable as the universe itself. God's Law was the final word about human sin until the universe passes, and with it human mortality.

We know that what Jesus meant was not the actual annihilation of the universe but the end of the present condition of the universe, along with sin and human mortality. That is what had to change, and it did change when Christ gave us a different way than the Law of Moses.

Notice that in this passage Jesus said that *he* came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. He did not come to obey the Law or to give us a way for Israel to continue obeying the Law. Rather, he came to bring Israel and the world a different way of righteousness that *fulfills* the Law.

"I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Freth, if you teach obedience to the Law you teach heresy. You cannot teach just the 10 Commandments, a subset of the Law, or the Sabbath Law, which is part of the entire Law. If you teach the Law as a system or covenant, you are putting yourself in opposition to the New Covenant and to the righteousness of Christ, which stands clearly *apart from the Law of Moses!*

If you wish to please God it will not be by arguing for the Law of Moses. It will be by arguing for the exclusive righteousness of Christ, which existed before the world began, and clearly, before the Law of Moses. He gave the Law to Israel to prepare them for the righteousness of Christ. When they rejected him they lost everything.

 

[RandyPNW]

As I said you can't reason when someone thinks their words are the same as Scriptures.

I reference Scriptures. I do *not* claim my words are Scriptures!!

Thanks for your thoughts. You will not find one Scripture that says the Sabbath is Moses and it started way before Moses Exo20:11.

Exo 35.1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”

It is sometimes argued that the 10 Commandments, which contain the Sabbath requirement, stands separate from the Law of Moses. But that is not what Moses himself wrote.

Deut 5.1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestor that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7 “You shall have no other gods befor me.

The entire Law is spelled out as inclusive of the 10 Commandments together with the entire Law.

God claimed it as His- MY holy day. Isa58:13 made for everyone Mar2:27 Isa56:6 but sadly many reject God's sanctification Eze20:12 for their own Isa66:17

God's Sabbath was connected to the creation of the universe. We did not create the universe. We do not rest from having created the universe.

Israel was given the Sabbath Law in memorial of what God did in creation. Israel's observance of Sabbath Day is very different from God's Sabbath rest from His work of creation.

If you refuse to recognize the difference, you're unwilling to face reality on this subject. God's keeping of the Sabbath of Creation work is no argument for Christians continuing to observe Israel's Sabbath Law. And even Israel is no longer required to observe Sabbath Law since in following Christ they are following the God of creation.

Israel followed Sabbath Law to show that their works were flawed and keep them out of heaven. This was to place all of their hope in God Himself, and in His mercy.

Placing your trust in Christ's righteousness alone is the way to obtain not just God's mercy but Eternal Life, as well. In trusting in Christ our works are no longer condemned. We are forgiven our sins, and our works done in Christ *follow us* into eternity.

I'll leave it with agree to disagree

Yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

[ARBITER01]

Just as a general comment in this ridiculous thread, even though it has been repeated for years on end here,...


- We have a new covenant, not a re-newed one.

- We are children of Abraham, not children of Moses.

- Jesus fulfilled all of the law, not part of it. It is finished/completed.

- We obey Jesus and "His" commandments, not Moses and the law.


Sometimes things are just too simple for people to understand and they hold onto personal beliefs instead of seeking the truth from GOD (even though the truth is staring them right in the face).

 

[Freth]

James equates love your neighbor with keeping commandments. If you break a commandment you are a transgressor of the law.

James 2:8-11 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.​

Love your neighbor​

• Do not commit adultery
• Do not kill

Paul says that love your neighbor is a summation of those (Ten) commandments that pertain to your neighbor. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not covet.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

Love your neighbor​

• Do not kill
• Do not steal
• Do not bear false witness
• Do not covet

Jesus also equated commandment keeping with love your neighbor.

Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

Love your neighbor​

• Honor your father and mother

Love your neighbor is covered here, with all six commandments pertaining to your neighbor; the last six.

John said if you don't love your neighbor how can you love God? He then called for loving God and keeping His commandments.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?​

​

Love God​

Love your neighbor​

• Do not take the name of the Lord in vain

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

Love God​

Love your neighbor​

• Keep His commandments

Love God is covered here, with the third commandment pertaining to God. Keep His commandments is all inclusive of the Ten.

Conclusion: Love God, love your neighbor are linked to commandment keeping. Specifically, the Ten.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.​