It seemed so easy for the thief on the cross to be saved.

[Abraham1st]

1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe."
John 13:3 " Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands they come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father"
Rom 11:32" For God has committed them ALL to disobedience , that He might have mercy on ALL"
The ALL seems to be all unless your a calvinist who do not believe this and change it to all kinds of people to fit their idea of God.

Nice one liners, for 1 Timothy 4, it's useful to go back two chapters first for context. All men simply are all types of men, as prayers were exhorted to be made for all men, not literally all men in the whole world, ( for Jesus said He prayed for the ones the Father gave Him and not for the world John 17:9.) So it included all in authority, who were not hidden from coming to the knowledge of the truth, and Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all testified to all.


1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


But that's not the end of the context, next you have to look specifically about those higher up individuals, but that not many wise men or mighty or noble are called, and that the ones God has called actually confound those ones who are something in this world, who are brought to nothing by those who are nothing in their eyes. ( also the Jews have a stumbling block by requiring signs, and the Greeks seeking after wisdom find the preaching of the cross foolishness.


1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.



Another consideration for this line of thought is who also is not very called, and we can find that in both Peter and Jude.

Bringing upon themselves swift destruction, they are made to be taken and destroyed as natural brute beasts, they utterly perish in their own corruption, receiving the reward of unrighteousness ( the wages of sin are death) beguiling unstable souls, cursed, they forsook the right way and deceive.



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.



Of old these ungodly men were ordained to tis condemnation, as natural brute beasts, woe unto them, they feast with you, to them the blackness of darkness is reserved for ever.



Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Nice one liners, for 1 Timothy 4, it's useful to go back two chapters first for context. All men simply are all types of men, as prayers were exhorted to be made for all men, not literally all men in the whole world, ( for Jesus said He prayed for the ones the Father gave Him and not for the world John 17:9.) So it included all in authority, who were not hidden from coming to the knowledge of the truth, and Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all testified to all.


1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


But that's not the end of the context, next you have to look specifically about those higher up individuals, but that not many wise men or mighty or noble are called, and that the ones God has called actually confound those ones who are something in this world, who are brought to nothing by those who are nothing in their eyes. ( also the Jews have a stumbling block by requiring signs, and the Greeks seeking after wisdom find the preaching of the cross foolishness.


1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.



Another consideration for this line of thought is who also is not very called, and we can find that in both Peter and Jude.

Bringing upon themselves swift destruction, they are made to be taken and destroyed as natural brute beasts, they utterly perish in their own corruption, receiving the reward of unrighteousness ( the wages of sin are death) beguiling unstable souls, cursed, they forsook the right way and deceive.



2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.



Of old these ungodly men were ordained to tis condemnation, as natural brute beasts, woe unto them, they feast with you, to them the blackness of darkness is reserved for ever.



Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Ok I went back two chapters and 1 Tim 2:4 says " Who intends all human beings to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. and also one mediator of God and human beings: a human being the Anointed One Jesus, Who gave himself as a liberation fee for all persons, the proof rendered at their own proper times." Yes we are to pray for all men whatever type but that doesn't negate this verse. If you look up the Greek for all its pas which means - all, every, whole, entire- this excludes no one.
You did not even address John 13:3 or Rom 11: 32.
I know all will not come to Jesus in this age scripture is clear on that, their time will come in the next age, Phil 2:9-11 " Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord" those who reject Jesus in this age are those under the earth, they will be reconciled but not till the next age.
You make the mistake of thinking that men are only able to be reconciled while in the mortal body, but scripture doesn't say that.
Heb 9:27 " its appointed for man to die once and then the judgement" most of western christians think this means once you die its heaven or hell, but the judgement is - did you follow Jesus or not, if yes then you go into aionion life if no you go to aionios kolasis, which is a resoritive correction or punishment unto correction.
This is the only way Phil 2:9-11 can be true, unless you do not think every knee will bow and every tongue gladly confess Jesus is Lord.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It sounds a bit out of context. Here is the whole verse and also including -48:

John 12:47-48
As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Strong's Concordance for keep:

Strong's Greek: 5442. φυλάσσω (phulassó) -- To guard, to keep, to watch over, to protect, to observe

It would seem like Jesus is saying He will not judge those who hears His words but does not observe or guard or obey them.

But a judge is coming for those who reject His words (Remember that Jesus is the Word becoming Flesh - John 1:14)

The Pharisees rejected both Jesus and His Words.

A relevant example to the Sheep and Goats:

Even if you do not directly help the least of your brethren (feed, quench their thirst, clothe, comfort them in their distress) but as long as you accept the words/teachings of Jesus on the subject of good stewardship, at the very least, you're not stopping those who are helping the least but encouraging them. Then you are still helping the least/poor even if indirectly.

As opposed to people/Christians who have heard the preaching or heard it from another believer, read the whole Bible but chose not to help the least of our brethen in ways that Jesus described and also consistently avoids HIs teachings on helping the least of our brethren, making excuses it is not their calling.

Worst of all, they even discourage those who are helping the least/poor, stirs up doubt if it is really their calling. These have clearly rejected the teachings of Jesus.

Why it keeps getting back to the subject of Sheep and Goats? How we treat the least is how we treat Jesus. If Jesus fell down, would you have the heart to ignore Him or just tell Him to get up on his feet? Or would you run to Him, take His burden and lift Him back to His feet? Definitely not to be taken lightly.

But a word of caution, we can't turn the concept of humanitarian work into new religion either. Doing things expecting a reward or compensation or any other good things in return. Ultimately, it's about having a heart of flesh and not stone. A heart that bleeds, cries out, and hungry for the truth.

So we are to give food,clothing and other worldly things to the goats while they are in the mortal body because Jesus taught us to do that but once the mortal body dies God is going to burn them forever, that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[timothyu]

Again... do we torture chafe/weeds or do we delete them? The words wouldn't be used if the human concept was not similar.

 

[Abraham1st]

So we are to give food,clothing and other worldly things to the goats while they are in the mortal body because Jesus taught us to do that but once the mortal body dies God is going to burn them forever, that doesn't make any sense to me.

Jesus did not judge who was who, when He layed HIs life down for all, neither does God judge who receives the rain down from the sky, and Jesus died for us when we were enemies in our minds by wicked works, Christ our Lord gave love, kindness, compassion to us when we are that, what example are we following if we do not be as God raining down on us from heaven, ( as again he rained down manna from heaven for all) but Christ gave the true bread that we can eat and not die.

 

[Abraham1st]

Ok I went back two chapters and 1 Tim 2:4 says " Who intends all human beings to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. and also one mediator of God and human beings: a human being the Anointed One Jesus, Who gave himself as a liberation fee for all persons, the proof rendered at their own proper times." Yes we are to pray for all men whatever type but that doesn't negate this verse. If you look up the Greek for all its pas which means - all, every, whole, entire- this excludes no one.
You did not even address John 13:3 or Rom 11: 32.
I know all will not come to Jesus in this age scripture is clear on that, their time will come in the next age, Phil 2:9-11 " Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord" those who reject Jesus in this age are those under the earth, they will be reconciled but not till the next age.
You make the mistake of thinking that men are only able to be reconciled while in the mortal body, but scripture doesn't say that.
Heb 9:27 " its appointed for man to die once and then the judgement" most of western christians think this means once you die its heaven or hell, but the judgement is - did you follow Jesus or not, if yes then you go into aionion life if no you go to aionios kolasis, which is a resoritive correction or punishment unto correction.
This is the only way Phil 2:9-11 can be true, unless you do not think every knee will bow and every tongue gladly confess Jesus is Lord.

All man is still all when it is all men as told, kings, all in authority, as example, it excludes no men, from the least to the greatest, then at judgement day all those all, from the least to the greatest/ small and great, are judged, there wont be another judgement after being destroyed.


2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Again... do we torture chafe/weeds or do we delete them? The words wouldn't be used if the human concept was not similar.

So you believe that Gods creation that is made after his image is just a weed? If we were just weeds why did God create us, and why would he die for weeds?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

All man is still all when it is all men as told, kings, all in authority, as example, it excludes no men, from the least to the greatest, then at judgement day all those all, from the least to the greatest/ small and great, are judged, there wont be another judgement after being destroyed.


2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So you believe that the " destruction" verses trump the all will be saved in the end verses? Why does that seem like the character of the Loving god who is life and light in whom is no darkness?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus is physical bread. . .Jesus is a physical vine. . .Jesus is a physical light. . .?

Where do we find in Scripture that God's plan is that none be lost?

Did Jesus get the memo? ". . .whoever does not believe in God's Son stands condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

Here is what I mean by literal reading. There is literal metaphor, literal history, literal poetry, literal prophecy, litteral thoughts of those who miss understood God and were writing how they felt even when they were wrong about God, and things that are just plane literal.
Our job is to try to see through the lense of Jesus, because he said if you have seen me you have seen the father, what parts of scripture fit in to what category.
I believe that when Jesus says he is the savior of the cosmos that is a literal true statement, or when scripture says its Gods will/desire that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, that is a literal statement, or all in Adam die but all will be made alive in Jesus, these are all literal.
Also I do not rely on the English bible only but look at the original Greek words used and how the audience it was given to understood those words 2000 years ago.
It seems that you read scripture from a different lens than I do.

 

[Clare73]

Here is what I mean by literal reading. There is literal metaphor, literal history, literal poetry, literal prophecy, litteral thoughts of those who miss understood God and were writing how they felt even when they were wrong about God, and things that are just plane literal.
Our job is to try to see through the lense of Jesus, because he said if you have seen me you have seen the father, what parts of scripture fit in to what category.

I believe that when Jesus says he is the savior of the cosmos that is a literal true statement, or when scripture says its Gods will/desire that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, that is a literal statement, or all in Adam die but all will be made alive in Jesus, these are all literal.
Also I do not rely on the English bible only but look at the original Greek words used and how the audience it was given to understood those words 2000 years ago.
It seems that you read scripture from a different lens than I do.

I understand Scripture in the light of all Scripture, as not contradicting itself, but in harmony with itself.

Where interpretation of Scripture sets Scripture against itself, I know there is error.

 

[timothyu]

If we were just weeds why did God create us, and why would he die for weeds?

We make the choice. Weeds? He didn't.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I understand Scripture in the light of all Scripture, as not contradicting itself, but in harmony with itself.

Where interpretation of Scripture sets Scripture against itself, I know there is error.

Yes but who is the arborator of what interpretation is correct ?
I see the scripture that God is reconciling the world to himself as trumping the supposed eternal torture passages in the English when using the original Greek.
It seems that you believe the eternal torture passages trump the reconciliation of all.
Ask yourself this, if eternal torture for most of Gods creation is true why did God wait 4000 years to tell mankind, because most biblical scholars agree that it is not in the Old Testament.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

We make the choice. Weeds? He didn't.

So you believe mans will is greater than Gods will?