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eclipsenow

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If someone cannot bring themselves to say one positive thing about a person, any criticism they have should be treated like white noise and without credibility.
To put it another way, why do I have to say something nice about the leader if I'm mainly discussing their policies?

Especially as I freely admit I've voted for people that I do not like, but their policies were that important. Voting is a process one does holding one's nose!

In fact - this year I voted Labor - and I happen to dislike some of the stuff I hear coming from my nephew who is in the Labor party about how 'Albo' behaves within party meetings - and some of the policies and things that get sabotaged - especially any suggestions from Young Labor.

Albo's public persona is fine enough - with nothing on his worst day anywhere near as bad as the crazy stuff Trump brain-blurts on his best days!


But I voted for Albo anyway. Labor's mildly positive stance on climate change is vastly preferable to the Liberal's lying, deceptive delaying tactics on climate action (to keep their coalition party the Nationals happy in coal country.)

In that context - your often repeated attitude that 'If you can't say something nice about my leader, then I'm not going to listen to you' sounds like some platitude from the Brady Bunch. ;)
 
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7thKeeper

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In the words of Donald Trump to Zelenski, democrats do not have the cards.
You really want to use an example where Trump was utterly wrong?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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To put it another way, why do I have to say something nice about the leader if I'm mainly discussing their policies?
The word you are looking for is "president." Even when it comes to policies, can you honestly say there is not one policy from Trump that you agreed with? Not even the executive order preventing companies from selling your information causing you to get bombarded with spam after buying a home? Now, I am speaking for myself, but in my opinion, the criticisms of those who cannot or refuse to say one good thing about Trump cannot be taken seriously. Especially the democrats in congress who refused to celebrate a child's bravery while battling cancer.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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You really want to use an example where Trump was utterly wrong?
Trump was not wrong. Regardless, what "card" can democrats bring to the negotiation table as leverage?
 
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7thKeeper

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Trump was not wrong. Regardless, what "card" can democrats bring to the negotiation table as leverage?
Yes, yes he demonstrably wrong. It was an utterly stupid thing to say, both factually and diplomatically.
 
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doubtingmerle

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You don't understand. That list is additive. One has to tick all those boxes to receive love, not just some of them. They have to be christian (but not the wrong kind of christian), us american (terms and conditions apply), pro family values (which boils down to being anti-abortion and anti-lgbt+) and pro-humanity (everyone who ticks all the other three boxes, and nobody else, since "they" are anti-humanity).
Right. Perhaps what was really being said was, "We are unified on love. Love for (the white, evangelical version of) God, (the red states in our) country, (white heterosexual) family, and (our in-group of) humanity.
 
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eclipsenow

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The word you are looking for is "president." Even when it comes to policies, can you honestly say there is not one policy from Trump that you agreed with?
In the broad scheme of things on the more boring end of the domestic end of executive orders, I probably do support the ongoing maintenance of American systems of government. But that's not what you initially said! It sounded like you wanted me to bend the knee and say something nice about the man - not his policies.

Anyway, these smaller matters that do NOT hit the international news are not really the big hitter policies that define the regime.

When I talk about MAGA or "Trumpism" they're not what I'm attacking.
Generally speaking, government should be far more boring and less controversial than Trumpism. It should just be there, doing the job, ensuring citizens rights.

Not grabbing attention and flooding the zone all day every day with spite and hate.

but in my opinion, the criticisms of those who cannot or refuse to say one good thing about Trump cannot be taken seriously.
So you said. You have not justified WHY you hold this position! I have already explained above that I would probably support the majority of the boring stuff that comes across his desk. Again - government should be boring.

Again - those are not the matters that we are discussing!

So if you need, I'll raise my right hand and swear :-

"I, Eclipse Now, on the 29th September 2025 - do solemnly swear that I support most of the boring bills that Donald Trump signs. The boringness of government is what I support. Not the petty vengeance, nor racist tropes against ethnic types, nor his previous criminal endeavours, nor his trying to silence comedians and free speech, nor his attacking NATO, nor his dismissal of climatologists as 'stupid people', nor his blaming elevators as a conspiracy theory, nor his attacks on universities trying to teach a broad curriculum, nor anything anti-vax that comes from RFK, nor his denial of Biden's 2020 election win (aka "The Big Lie"), nor his denial that Jan 06 was an insurrection, nor his pardoning of all the criminals that committed violence on that day, nor his vain and unstatesmanlike Tweets on Truth Social, nor his destructive tariff policies that favour China in the long run, nor his many other attacks on common sense and decency. But the boring I support!"​

Especially the democrats in congress who refused to celebrate a child's bravery while battling cancer.
? I'm not aware of this - and having had my own son go through all that when he was 5 - and suffer carer burnout myself which threw off my mental health for 2 years - you can tell I would have strong words with any democrats that went down that pathway! I was with my boy through all that pain, held his hand, told him we needed to give him these medicines that would get the cancer but make him quite sick. And as the side effects kicked in - this beautiful kid trusted his parents so much he sort of disassociated from all the bad emotions he was feeling and suffered some major depression as a result in his early 20's. He is fine now - and touring Europe as we speak.

But again - even if democrats said something like that - and I didn't LIKE their leader - if I were American I would still vote democrat. Politics is nuanced and compromised and voting a process one does holding one's nose. That you cannot seem to recognise this makes me wonder about the personality politics of a Presidential system - and the psychological toll it must take on people trying to justify to themselves why they voted for someone as appalling as Trump!
 
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Oompa Loompa

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But that's not what you initially said! It sounded like you wanted me to bend the knee and say something nice about the man - not his policies.
So what if I did or didnt. Can you think of a single thing good about Trump as a person separate from his policies?
 
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eclipsenow

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So what if I did or didnt. Can you think of a single thing good about Trump as a person separate from his policies?
Sure - but you go first with Gavin Newsom.
Also - assume he's just become President in 2028.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Sure - but you go first with Gavin Newsom.
Also - assume he's just become President in 2028.
I like how he has a very calm tone in general. He can do a good job calming down the radical left, probably for a short period of time before they turn against him. He has awesome hair. Like, 1990's super villain hair. But I have already said more good things about Newsome
than most democrats can say about Trump. Now your turn. I will wait.

Edit: I will also add that he will likely win strong ties with the EU, Russia, Iran, China, and Hamas.
 
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eclipsenow

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I like how he has a very calm tone in general.
Good - as opposed to the awful racket coming from Trump.

He can do a good job calming down the radical left,
Your country doesn't have a proper left - let alone a radical one.

Like - when was the last time a Presidential candidate ran on a platform of nationalising over half your hospitals to bring poor American healthcare into line with OECD norms?

He has awesome hair. Like, 1990's super villain hair.

Supervillain hair? Ha ha ha - don't you mean SuperHERO hair?

1759111260038.png


Edit: I will also add that he will likely win strong ties with the EU, Russia, Iran, China, and Hamas.
Why? Because he's generically 'left' of your far-right position?

But I have already said more good things about Newsome
than most democrats can say about Trump. Now your turn. I will wait.
Have you? That's amazing. Yet your far-right biases leaked all over everything you said. If that's how this "say a nice thing about my leader" game works, then I'll contribute this.

Donald Trump is really good at avoiding going to jail, which is where he should be.

Otherwise - if you want to discuss actual policies - and the deliberate lies Trump spreads about immigrants, climate change, everything under the sun... I'm far more comfortable discussing actual facts and statistics.

My subjective experience of watching America being taken over by an entitled narcissistic billionaire conman with the world's worst case of Dunning-Krueger's is simply not really the subject!
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Good - as opposed to the awful racket coming from Trump.


Your country doesn't have a proper left - let alone a radical one.

Like - when was the last time a Presidential candidate ran on a platform of nationalising over half your hospitals to bring poor American healthcare into line with OECD norms?



Supervillain hair? Ha ha ha - don't you mean SuperHERO hair?

View attachment 370808


Why? Because he's generically 'left' of your far-right position?


Have you? That's amazing. Yet your far-right biases leaked all over everything you said. If that's how this "say a nice thing about my leader" game works, then I'll contribute this.

Donald Trump is really good at avoiding going to jail, which is where he should be.

Otherwise - if you want to discuss actual policies - and the deliberate lies Trump spreads about immigrants, climate change, everything under the sun... I'm far more comfortable discussing actual facts and statistics.

My subjective experience of watching America being taken over by an entitled narcissistic billionaire conman with the world's worst case of Dunning-Krueger's is simply not really the subject!
May I please present Exhibit A for the jury? This is why rationalizing with the left is futile. Break... now @eclipsenow, do you have anything sincerely positive to say about Trump before I block you forever?
 
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eclipsenow

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May I please present Exhibit A for the jury? This is why rationalizing with the left is futile. Break... now @eclipsenow, do you have anything sincerely positive to say about Trump before I block you forever?
First - as he is a world leader - I pray for him. (That God will limit the harm this man could do.)

Second - he certainly has a lot of stamina to do all those "Tweets" and "Truths" against all the comedians and every other injustice that has hurt his feelings that day.

Third - Have you ever read any C.S. Lewis?

This assertion of yours that I must say something positive about Trump or I'm irrational and should be ignored is itself an irrational logical error CS Lewis called a "Bulverism". It's a patronising attempt to explain WHY I am wrong - rather than show THAT my arguments against Trump's policies are wrong. Basically I think Oompa Loompa is trying (in a polite way) to say I have TDS - therefore he can ignore everything I say! From the Bulverism wiki:

You must show that a man is wrong before you start explaining why he is wrong. The modern method is to assume without discussion that he is wrong and then distract his attention from this (the only real issue) by busily explaining how he became so silly. In the course of the last fifteen years I have found this vice so common that I have had to invent a name for it. I call it "Bulverism".​
Some day I am going to write the biography of its imaginary inventor, Ezekiel Bulver, whose destiny was determined at the age of five when he heard his mother say to his father—who had been maintaining that two sides of a triangle were together greater than a third—"Oh you say that because you are a man."​
"At that moment", E. Bulver assures us, "there flashed across my opening mind the great truth that refutation is no necessary part of argument. Assume that your opponent is wrong, and explain his error, and the world will be at your feet. Attempt to prove that he is wrong or (worse still) try to find out whether he is wrong or right, and the national dynamism of our age will thrust you to the wall."​
That is how Bulver became one of the makers of the Twentieth Century.​
— C. S. Lewis, Bulverism
Oompa Loompa should admit he was tyring to brand everything I say with TDS - and psychologically taint why I am wrong - rather than prove THAT I am wrong.

He should be honest and admit this was his strategy. I've seen him use it against many here.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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do you have anything sincerely positive to say about Trump before I block you forever?
Donald Trump is an egotistical felon who appears to think only of himself, his wealth, and his power. He demands that other people honor him in a way that can only be considered worship. When he gets the attention and praise that he so longs for, he will promote such people and give them power, as long as they continue to worship him. However, he has no loyalty to anyone and will readily abandon them if they fail him.

Yes, many people have made a Faustian bargain with him, such as Pete Hegseth, Russell Vought, Stephen Miller, and Kash Patel, and Trump lets them run the country as long as they worship Trump. You may like some of the things they do, such as their Project 2025, but I hate what they do. Their buffoonery is destroying our country.

In all humans, there is a spark of goodness, a spark of what it means to be a cooperative member of the human species. But, in Trump, that spark is so small, it is almost impossible to detect. If you want me to stare, and find the faintest ember in the ashes, and call that a fire, fine. But I will not call any faint spark that I see in Trump the same thing as the warm glow of humanity. It is merely the fading embers of humankind that tried to reveal itself in his body.

Now, your turn. Do you have anything truly positive to say about Trump? What are the benefits of having him as President?
 
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A2SG

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do you have anything sincerely positive to say about Trump before I block you forever?
He breathes out carbon dioxide which is good for plants.

-- A2SG, took me a while, but I found one....
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Donald Trump is an egotistical felon who appears to think only of himself, his wealth, and his power. He demands that other people honor him in a way that can only be considered worship. When he gets the attention and praise that he so longs for, he will promote such people and give them power, as long as they continue to worship him. However, he has no loyalty to anyone and will readily abandon them if they fail him.

Yes, many people have made a Faustian bargain with him, such as Pete Hegseth, Russell Vought, Stephen Miller, and Kash Patel, and Trump lets them run the country as long as they worship Trump. You may like some of the things they do, such as their Project 2025, but I hate what they do. Their buffoonery is destroying our country.

In all humans, there is a spark of goodness, a spark of what it means to be a cooperative member of the human species. But, in Trump, that spark is so small, it is almost impossible to detect. If you want me to stare, and find the faintest ember in the ashes, and call that a fire, fine. But I will not call any faint spark that I see in Trump the same thing as the warm glow of humanity. It is merely the fading embers of humankind that tried to reveal itself in his body.

Now, your turn. Do you have anything truly positive to say about Trump? What are the benefits of having him as President?
So you are just white noise. Good bye.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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So you are just white noise. Good bye.
Got it, so you have no answer you want to give me on my questions: Do you have anything truly positive to say about Trump? What are the benefits of having him as President?
 
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7thKeeper

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So you are just white noise. Good bye.
... I'm sorry, but this is just so low hanging fruit that I HAVE to make the joke. So everyone understand, this is a joke.

Erhm..

Isn't that the exact type of noise that MAGA likes?
 
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