Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

[Clare73]

I see, so then Adam didn't will freely

Was Adam born with a fallen nature and as "a slave to sin" (Jn 8:34)?

Are you saying there is no difference between Adam before and after the fall, no difference between being able to choose to be sinless before the fall ("free will"), and and being a slave to sin (Jn 8:34) unable to choose to be sinless after the fall?

 

[fhansen]

Are you saying there is no difference between Adam before and after the fall, no difference between being able to choose to be sinless before the fall, and and being a slave to sin (Jn 8:34) unable to choose to be sinless after the fall?

Just responding to what you said:

For starters, "free will" is not in the NT. . .we are born slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.
Free will is a philosophical notion (asserted by Pelagius), not a Biblical notion.

 

[Clare73]

Just responding to what you said:

Not really. . .you allow for no difference in Adam before the fall (free will, sinless) and after the fall (slave to sin, sinner, Jn 8:34).

 

[fhansen]

Not really. . .you allow for no difference in Adam before the fall (free will, sinless) and after the fall (slave to sin, sinner, Jn 8:34).

It appears you're saying that free will is a fallacy to begin with

 

[Clare73]

It appears you're saying that free will is a fallacy to begin with

It is since the fall, when man became a slave to sin (Jn 8:34).

"Free will" of man (power to make all moral choices) is not presented in the Bible.
Man cannot choose to be sinless.
Man's freedom is limited, he has limited "free will;" i.e., he has the power to choose what he prefers. . .which preference is not the kingdom of God which he cannot even see (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[fhansen]

It is since the fall, when man became a slave to sin (Jn 8:34).

"Free will" of man (power to make all moral choices) is not presented in the Bible.
Man cannot choose to be sinless.
Man's freedom is limited, he has limited "free will;" i.e., the power to choose what he prefers. . .which, apart from the sovereign Spirit's rebirth,
is not the kingdom of God which he cannot even see (Jn 3:3-5).

Yes, man has limited free will. And even Adam's freedom was limited, for that matter, compared with God's. But fallen man's will is not so constrained that he cannot muster a "no" to grace, to God, when He calls.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, man has limited free will. And even Adam's freedom was limited, for that matter, compared with God's. But fallen man's will is not so constrained that he cannot muster a "no" to grace, to God, when He calls.

"Grace" is not an outward entity "offered" to a person.

Grace is the power of God working within fallen man, giving him the disposition to prefer God's will, which he freely and willingly chooses.

 

[fhansen]

"Grace" is not an outward entity "offered" to a person.

Yes, and so?

Grace is the power of God working within fallen man, giving him the disposition to prefer God's will, which he freely and willingly chooses.

Grace is the work of God the Holy Spirit within us. We can remain in Him and He in us, or not. If we do, then we'll live that life of grace and produce good fruit; if not then we're not His, or no longer His. Anyone can say their dispositions have been changed and they willingly choose whatever, but it's by their fruit that we know them, and their perseverance in it. To the extent that they sin they're already proving that they don't always willingly choose rightly anyway; the battle, the struggle continues on until the end. Then God give His judgement.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, and so?

Grace is the work of God the Holy Spirit within us. We can remain in Him and He in us, or not.

Jesus does not agree with you.
None of the elect, wherein God changes the disposition to belief and obedience, fail to remain in him.

No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him (Jn 6:65).
All whom the Father has given me will come to me (Jn 6:37).
I shall lose none of all that he has given me (Jn 6:39)

Your God is too small. . .his arm is too short (Isa 59:1).
And your philosophical notion of "free will" is contra-Biblical (Jn 8:34).