Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Benaiah468]

The majority of UN member states, 153 out of 193, have already recognized "Palestine". The most recent recognitions are politically and media-motivated and do not change the reality.

Recognition at this point is politically convenient, but poorly justified in terms of international law and security policy: According to Montevideo, a state needs, among other things, a functioning government and a clearly defined territory, both of which are lacking; the "Palestinian" territories are institutionally divided (PA in Judea and Samaria, de facto rule by Hamas in Gaza), and there is no overall state control.

A significant power factor explicitly rejects Israel's right to exist and is listed as a terrorist organization in the EU, thus, there is currently no responsible head of state to enforce the monopoly on the use of force and international obligations.

In addition, the Oslo Accords stipulate that core issues (borders, Jerusalem, security, refugees) must be negotiated; recognition “in advance” prejudices these points without a viable order on the ground.

 

[rambot]

Normally, when people break into countries without permission and are caught, there are criminal consequences. But last time they were deported peacefully.

There are some strange things that Western media outlets have not investigated in their reports:

How the organisers manage to buy or somehow acquire around 50 small ships and boats (including sailing yachts). That costs a lot of money, but we have always been told that this initiative does not have any generous sponsors behind it. Where did they get the money?

It's amazing how generous people around the world can be when they see children being starved to death.

Among the most influential leaders are Arabic-speaking individuals whose names have not been disclosed to the public. This is strange, because this initiative was promoted by European left-wing politicians and supporters, and one would think that the leaders should be European.

Why would one think that? How simple does one need to be to make such basic assumptions that are completely unecessary?
You seem to be trying to tie everything back to Arabs; Presumably so you can discredit these things in your own mind.

Sorry. Israel is the badguys here and everyone around the world can see it.

Among the actual leaders are people like Wael Nawar, very close to the Hamas leader in North Africa, Youssef Adman and the Tunisian scholar Hayfa Mansouri, who is said to be close to the Islamic integral movement in her country. Who decided that these Arab men should be the leaders of the flotilla?

Who decided that they were actually leaders of anything? Their names get almost nothing when searched.

Who decided that Gaza children should be starved to death?

Instead of a port in Europe, such as Catania or Athens, the leaders decided to meet in Tunis. Tunis is located in Tunisia, a completely Muslim state where Islamic fundamentalists are very strong. Such a choice is quite disturbing, as there are members of the LGBT community among the activists.

If only Conservatives took the same view when they are willing to cosey up with Proud Boys, and any other objectionable ideology that could help them out.

Despite the nominally left-wing nature of the initiative, a strict Muslim code was imposed on everyone on board.

As evidenced by all the head coverings on all women? Do you believe your news sources because you think they are trustworthy or because they agree with you?

You got a source for that that has some kind basis for that knowledge or some rando "times of Israel" article instead?

The Qatari network Al Jazeera is the unofficial official television station of the initiative. Its journalists have complete freedom to move around the boats and talk to anyone, but some of them seem to be members of a Gulf state security force rather than journalists.

Al Jazeera has won numerous awards for their journalism....and what they may "seem" to be to outsiders is of very little consequence.

 

[rambot]

The flotilla is a particularly striking example of Islamo-Gauchisme, i.e. the alliance between the extreme left and migrant Islamists against their common enemies: the traditional West, with Israel as its strongest bastion.

Contrary to her announcement in August, full-time BASF millionaire heiress and activist Marlene Engelhorn did not board the flotilla after all. Among other things, she said in a video statement that she wanted fewer privileged white people on board.

It is pretty crazy how people who disagree so intently can come together when they see a genocide unfolding.


I'm not sure if you are aware but during WWII Stalin and Western states weren't exactly buddy buddy.

And yet that partnership ended up working out pretty good for everyone: Justice, and morality were able to prevail. IT seem this time, they will not.

 

[Vanellus]

The majority of UN member states, 153 out of 193, have already recognized "Palestine". The most recent recognitions are politically and media-motivated and do not change the reality.

Recognition at this point is politically convenient, but poorly justified in terms of international law and security policy: According to Montevideo, a state needs, among other things, a functioning government and a clearly defined territory, both of which are lacking; the "Palestinian" territories are institutionally divided (PA in Judea and Samaria, de facto rule by Hamas in Gaza), and there is no overall state control.

A significant power factor explicitly rejects Israel's right to exist and is listed as a terrorist organization in the EU, thus, there is currently no responsible head of state to enforce the monopoly on the use of force and international obligations.

In addition, the Oslo Accords stipulate that core issues (borders, Jerusalem, security, refugees) must be negotiated; recognition “in advance” prejudices these points without a viable order on the ground.

"Everybody else is wrong except me" is rarely correct.

 

[Philip_B]

The majority of UN member states, 153 out of 193, have already recognized "Palestine". The most recent recognitions are politically and media-motivated and do not change the reality.

Recognition at this point is politically convenient, but poorly justified in terms of international law and security policy: According to Montevideo, a state needs, among other things, a functioning government and a clearly defined territory, both of which are lacking; the "Palestinian" territories are institutionally divided (PA in Judea and Samaria, de facto rule by Hamas in Gaza), and there is no overall state control.

A significant power factor explicitly rejects Israel's right to exist and is listed as a terrorist organization in the EU, thus, there is currently no responsible head of state to enforce the monopoly on the use of force and international obligations.

In addition, the Oslo Accords stipulate that core issues (borders, Jerusalem, security, refugees) must be negotiated; recognition “in advance” prejudices these points without a viable order on the ground.

You are, of course, correct in the point you are making. However, you are not asking why this is so. Successive Israeli Governments have not, apart from some diluted form on paper, recognised the Palestinian Territories. This is reflected by the still ongoing practice of creating Jewish Settlements within the Palestinian Territory. I am not arguing to legitimise terrorism; however, I am not convinced, despite your assurances, that Israel has always acted in good faith with the Palestinians.

I have a great deal of respect for the Jewish Faith and cultural tradition, which has remained strong through several exiles and diasporas. That faith expresses itself in the Wandering Aramean, hospitality to the foreigner and sojourner in the land, and the call from the prophet Micah, to Do Justly, to Love Mercy, and to Walk Humbly with your God. I would like to see more of this as the aspirational and perhaps achievable realities of the Jewish Nation State created by the UN Mandate in 1948. I recognise that that is not without its challenges.

 

[rjs330]

UK, Canada and Australia, Portugal has now also officially declared its recognition of a Palestinian state.

Did they also recognize it as a terrorist state? I think not. What government did they recognize? Whats rhe official borders of rhis supposed state?

These countries are a joke as well as rhe UN. Its the UN that helped HAMAS build all those tunnels instead of feeding and helping the people.

They are an anti-semetic organization.

 

[rjs330]

That faith expresses itself in the Wandering Aramean, hospitality to the foreigner and sojourner in the land, and the call from the prophet Micah, to Do Justly, to Love Mercy, and to Walk Humbly with your God.

Except the sojourner and foreigner are seeking the destruction and murder of their people. These are peaceful people who just want to be part of Israel and live among them.

 

[rjs330]

In the search for a Jewish Homeland, you can not simply disappear the other lot, as that will make it simple and easy. The problem is that it is not doing justly.

It's rhe other lot that is trying to disappear Israel. The Arabs in the region had the ability to remain and keep their land ans properties.

Now the Arabs have sought the annihilation of Israel.

 

[rjs330]

Inhabitants of the region have been called "Palestinians" since Roman times.

That's because the Romans named the land that as an insult to the Jews who lived there. Neither the Arabs nor the Isrealis named it that.

Why should they not?

Because its Israel. A nation. The Arabs never owned all the land not were they ever a state.

The indigenous people of the other former Ottoman provinces got their own countries and eventually independence. Why not the indigenous people of the former Ottoman Palestine?

You'd have to take that up with those that controlled the area after the Ottomans gave it up. However its a bit late now.

 

[rjs330]

Mexico’s Jewish president calls on Israel to end ‘genocide in Gaza’​

Speaking to journalists at her daily news conference, Sheinbaum said Mexico stands “with the international community to stop this genocide in Gaza.”

Since taking office last year, Sheinbaum has repeatedly called for a cease-fire and reiterated Mexico’s support for a two-state solution in the region, but until Monday she had refrained from categorizing what is unfolding in Gaza as a genocide.

Her comments on Gaza come amid growing global consensus that Israel is committing genocide.

There's no genocide in Gaza.

 

[rjs330]

The people of Italy have worked out that Israel is in the wrong.

Clashes as tens of thousands join pro-Palestinian demos in Italy

The Italians? A bunch of socialist leftists are against Israel? Shocking! Aren't they rhe ones who sided with Hitler?

 

[rjs330]

While some experts and academics may sincerely believe in the genocide charge, it is also used by anti-Zionists and anti-Semites to equate modern Israel with Nazi Germany. The effect is to prepare the ground for a new wave of hatred against Jews, arousing hostility not only against the Israeli government but also against all Jews who support Israel as supporters of genocide. It is a tactic that Israel haters have been using for years with exaggerated or false accusations of Israeli massacres or war crimes that, upon closer inspection, have proven to be false. The genocide accusation is more of the same, but with more deadly consequences.

If genocide is to retain its status as a unique and horrific crime, the term must not be applied indiscriminately to every military situation we dislike. Wars are terrible enough. But misusing the term genocide risks blinding us to real genocides when they occur.

The war in Gaza should be ended in such a way that it never happens again. Calling it genocide does nothing to promote that goal, except to dilute the meaning of a word whose value we cannot afford to diminish.

If Israel really were seeking a genocide they could have pretty much succeeded by now. The death toll is WAY too low for that.

 

[rjs330]

Sorry. Israel is the badguys here and everyone around the world can see it.

Anyone who claims this is just plain anti-semetic. Claiming they are rhe bad guys because they are fighting a war against terrorists is preposterous.

Who decided that Gaza children should be starved to death?

If children are starving to death its becauae Hamas decided to make that happen.

As evidenced by all the head coverings on all women?

Its either that or they are showing solidarity with the Arabs who force rhat upon their women. Next thing you know they will be tossing gays overboard.

Al Jazeera has won numerous awards for their journalism....and what they may "seem" to be to outsiders is of very little consequence.

Yes its to be expected that leftist journalists would support Arab propaganda.

 

[BCP1928]

Anyone who claims this is just plain anti-semetic. Claiming they are rhe bad guys because they are fighting a war against terrorists is preposterous.

If children are starving to death its becauae Hamas decided to make that happen.

Its either that or they are showing solidarity with the Arabs who force rhat upon their women. Next thing you know they will be tossing gays overboard.

Yes its to be expected that leftist journalists would support Arab propaganda.

Leftist?

 

[rjs330]

Leftist?

Yes, journalists are nearly all leftists.

 

[Vanellus]

The pro Israel posts here are going round in ever decreasing circles, repeating the same old non arguments, while the rest of the world have worked out that killing well over 60.000 people and flattening all the hospitals, schools and other important buildings isn't going to destroy an idea and won't bring the remaining hostages back. Assassinating the Hamas negotiators doesn't help either and the hostage families camped outside chez Netanyahu know it.

 

[rjs330]

The pro Israel posts here are going round in ever decreasing circles, repeating the same old non arguments, while the rest of the world have worked out that killing well over 60.000 people and flattening all the hospitals, schools and other important buildings isn't going to destroy an idea

What idea are you talking about? The idea that Israel shouldnt exiat? The idea that its okay to launch missles into Israel, send in suicide bombers, launch brutal attacks in to the country and burn people alive. Rape the women, murder the babies? That idea?

If ehat Israel is doing isnt going to stop that, then they have no choice but to destroy every living thing in Gaza and level every building. Make the land completely uninhabitable. That would be the justice for a region that holds those ideas and is working to.carry them out.

Hamas should surrender.

 

[Hentenza]

"Everybody else is wrong except me" is rarely correct.

So address the post instead of goading the poster.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, journalists are nearly all leftists.

In what respect? Al Jazeera has a "leans left" rating on some issues, but they generally come from an Islamic point of view, which is hardly leftist.

 

[Hentenza]

In what respect? Al Jazeera has a "leans left" rating on some issues, but they generally come from an Islamic point of view, which is hardly leftist.

I wouldn’t call Al Jazeera left leaning. They do come from an Islamic point of view which makes them bias toward Hamas and the terror disinformation efforts.