Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Hentenza]

This strongly implies you are calling me a liar. Are you calling me a liar when I state I do not support Hamas?

There are two main combatants in this war,
Hamas and Israel. All of your posts have been vehemently and fervidly anti Israel. You tell me. What am I suppose to think?

 

[Vanellus]

There are two main combatants in this war,
Hamas and Israel. All of your posts have been vehemently and fervidly anti Israel. You tell me. What am I suppose to think?

This is not an answer to my question. It is rude to answer a question with a question. Answer my question rather than dodging it, or withdraw your accusation that I am a liar.

 

[Hentenza]

This is not an answer to my question.

Sure it is. This is not about you. Now, address the post and not the poster.

 

[Vanellus]

Sure it is. This is not about you. Now, address the post and not the poster.

There is no point in engaging with someone who thinks I am a liar but lacks the decency to say so explicitly,

 

[Vanellus]

Historically, the land of Israel belongs to the Jewish people, who have a deep historical and religious connection to the land dating back thousands of years and forming the basis for the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948.

The land of Canaan, which includes parts of present-day Israel, was inhabited by the Canaanites in ancient times. Later, it became part of biblical Israel and the Jewish Empire before being conquered by the Romans and the Jews being expelled.

There were no Arabs in "Palestine" 2,000 years ago, as the significant migration of Arab populations to the region occurred with the Islamic conquests in the 7th century CE. While there were Semitic peoples present, including the Canaanites and later Jews who were the majority until Roman-era expulsions, Arabs as a distinct, large-scale group were not indigenous to the area.

The first Middle East war cost the lives of 6,000 Jews (one per cent of the Jewish population at the time) and countless Arabs. It led to the flight and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs from "Palestine". It did not destroy the Jewish state, but eliminated Arab "Palestine". After this war, Jordan ruled Judea and Samaria and Egypt ruled the Gaza Strip until 1967: between 1948 and 1967, the Arabs from "Palestine" disappeared from the scene as a national group.

Why was the destruction of the Jewish sub-state more important to the Arabs than the establishment of their own?

A reply to this post would belong to one of the theological sections of the forum. This thread is about the current events in the conflict between Israel and Hamas. Posts about the recent history of Israel and Palestine (going back to the origin of the Zionist project e.g. Balfour, Herzl) are relevant to the thread. Posts about the relevance and interpretation of OT history belong in another section.

 

[Vanellus]

The reality of the situation indicates this is a laughable statement. The people of Gaza and Hamas have shown that they cannot be trusted and won't lay down their arms. Israel killed around 25K Hamas members since October 7th and Hamas has recruited that number back. The people of Gaza are the only terrorists in this scenario. Israel just wants to be left alone and free from being surrounded by hostile neighbors that seek its destruction and the death of the Jewish people.

I'm surprised that a forum staff member would write such an overtly politically biased post. Are you writing solely in a personal capacity or can one infer that this forum takes a particular political stance in this matter?

Your post ignores the recent historical background. One could argue that the Arabs who lived in Palestine before the Zionist project was even thought of by Herzl et al just "wanted to be left alone".

This Jewish website gives the historical background. If you are not already familiar with it I suggest you read the relevant sections in order to get a better grounding in the historical background.

A Synopsis of the Israel/Palestine Conflict

It starts:

In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known as Zionists, they represented an extremist minority of the Jewish population. Their goal was to create a Jewish homeland, and they considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine.[2] At first, this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine – many with the express wish of taking over the land for a Jewish state – the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with escalating waves of violence. Hitler's rise to power, combined with Zionist activities to sabotage efforts to place Jewish refugees in western countries[3], led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

 

[Philip_B]

A reply to this post would belong to one of the theological sections of the forum. This thread is about the current events in the conflict between Israel and Hamas. Posts about the recent history of Israel and Palestine (going back to the origin of the Zionist project e.g. Balfour, Herzl) are relevant to the thread. Posts about the relevance and interpretation of OT history belong in another section.

The fact that you think it is irrelevant is relevant. If you think it is irrelevant, then you believe that history is irrelevant. The problem with that, of course, is that if history is irrelevant, then there is little value in a Jewish claim to have a homeland in the region. If you have a determined outcome, then that will enable you to choose a place to begin and an argument that leads you to your desired outcome. We all need to aspire to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly. Part of the history of this region is written in the Old Testament, and certain aspects of it are acknowledged by all the parties involved in this conflict. In the search for a Jewish Homeland, you can not simply disappear the other lot, as that will make it simple and easy. The problem is that it is not doing justly.

 

[Vanellus]

The fact that you think it is irrelevant is relevant. If you think it is irrelevant, then you believe that history is irrelevant. The problem with that, of course, is that if history is irrelevant, then there is little value in a Jewish claim to have a homeland in the region. If you have a determined outcome, then that will enable you to choose a place to begin and an argument that leads you to your desired outcome. We all need to aspire to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly. Part of the history of this region is written in the Old Testament, and certain aspects of it are acknowledged by all the parties involved in this conflict. In the search for a Jewish Homeland, you can not simply disappear the other lot, as that will make it simple and easy. The problem is that it is not doing justly.

The problem with your post is that the first sentence contains a false assumption which renders the rest of the post a waste of your time and forum space. I will not waste any more of my time on this false assumption of yours.

 

[tampasteve]

I'm surprised that a forum staff member would write such an overtly politically biased post. Are you writing solely in a personal capacity or can one infer that this forum takes a particular political stance in this matter?

It is always as a personal capacity unless preceded by "ADMIN HAT" or "MOD HAT"

Your post ignores the recent historical background. One could argue that the Arabs who lived in Palestine before the Zionist project was even thought of by Herzl et al just "wanted to be left alone".

It may ignore more recent propaganda from the Arabs, but it accurately looks further back.

This Jewish website gives the historical background. If you are not already familiar with it I suggest you read the relevant sections in order to get a better grounding in the historical background.

A Synopsis of the Israel/Palestine Conflict

It starts:

LOL, I have seen that website and dismissed it roundly based on personal observation, experience, and the fact that it is in opposition to essentially all other data on the subject. The fact that it includes some Jewish people in their ranks matters not, there are Jews in Iran that support that terrorist state.

 

[Vanellus]

It is always as a personal capacity unless preceded by "ADMIN HAT" or "MOD HAT"

It may ignore more recent propaganda from the Arabs, but it accurately looks further back.

LOL, I have seen that website and dismissed it roundly based on personal observation, experience, and the fact that it is in opposition to essentially all other data on the subject. The fact that it includes some Jewish people in their ranks matters not, there are Jews in Iran that support that terrorist state.

Thank you for clarifying about the hats.

It's disappointing that you dismiss the If Americans Knew website so casually despite the fact that is backed up by very many sources. So would you say its casualty figures are grossly distorted and that in fact far more Israelis have been killed by Palestinians than vice versa? Maybe they got the colouring wrong?

 

[tampasteve]

So would you say its casualty figures are grossly distorted and that in fact far more Israelis have been killed by Palestinians than vice versa? Maybe they got the colouring wrong?

To be honest I don't care about the exact numbers, the Palestinians could have had peace in 1948 if they had actually wanted peace. They have chosen strife and terrorism since then and have never upheld any peace agreement. Nothing short of the expulsion of the Jews and the entire land will be a lasting solution in their minds.

 

[Vanellus]

The last section of this video debunks the Israeli propaganda about the Global Sumud (Freedom) Flotilla

One mustn't always trust results from a well known Internet search engine.

Aha you see Ronald Reagan was the mastermind behind 9/11. That's the kind of logic the Israeli propagandists have been using.

 

[Vanellus]

To be honest I don't care about the exact numbers, the Palestinians could have had peace in 1948 if they had actually wanted peace. They have chosen strife and terrorism since then and have never upheld any peace agreement. Nothing short of the expulsion of the Jews and the entire land will be a lasting solution in their minds.

It's remarkable how many people here show so much concern about the sanctity of human life with regard to abortion and the unborn child(ren) but completely ignore it when it comes to the lives of Palestinians who are human beings.

Of course you would have read:

“[At Lausanne,] Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war—a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel, however... [preferred] tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass.” Israeli author, Simha Flapan, “The Birth Of Israel.”

 

[tampasteve]

It's remarkable how many people here show so much concern about the sanctity of human life with regard to abortion and the unborn child(ren) but completely ignore it when it comes to the lives of Palestinians who are human beings.

I said that I don't care about the exact numbers, not that I don't care about humans. Your insinuation is that the Jews are responsible, mine is that the Arabs themselves are responsible and that the Israelis are just reacting to a necessary reality. The abortion comparison is a red herring.

 

[Hentenza]

To be honest I don't care about the exact numbers, the Palestinians could have had peace in 1948 if they had actually wanted peace. They have chosen strife and terrorism since then and have never upheld any peace agreement. Nothing short of the expulsion of the Jews and the entire land will be a lasting solution in their minds.

Not to mention the fact that the numbers are not verified. Also, I wonder how many died being used as shields by Hamas and to further the terrorist propaganda machine.

 

[Hentenza]

There is no point in engaging with someone who thinks I am a liar but lacks the decency to say so explicitly,

Read the posting rules for this website. Flaming is not allowed.

 

[BCP1928]

To be honest I don't care about the exact numbers, the Palestinians could have had peace in 1948 if they had actually wanted peace. They have chosen strife and terrorism since then and have never upheld any peace agreement. Nothing short of the expulsion of the Jews and the entire land will be a lasting solution in their minds.

They didn't want peace, they wanted Palestine. The French and the British carved up the former Ottoman territories to suit themselves, but eventually left them to the indigenous inhabitants as independent nations. Ottoman Palestine, on the other hand, was not left to the indigenous inhabitants, but was arbitrarily partitioned to make room for a western-oriented secular state forcibly settled with European immigrants. The Palestinians have been fighting it ever since.

 

[Benaiah468]

The Palestinians have been fighting it ever since.

The vast majority of "Palestinians" do not want a state alongside Israel. They do not want coexistence. They want exactly what the "Palestinians" have always wanted: the end of the Jewish state.

One side wants the other side dead. To put it more conciliatorily: the Jews insist on having their own state in their biblical homeland, and the Arabs, who have called themselves "Palestinians" since the mid-1960s, want to destroy it in order to establish their own state in its place.

It is a fundamental constant that continues to this day. 1937, 1947, 1967, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2020: every attempt at a solution has so far come to nothing. Every offer was initially rejected by the Arabs and later by the "Palestinians".

Former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban once said:

"The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

During the Camp David negotiations in 2000/2001, Israel offered the "Palestinians" their own state in Gaza and Judea/Samaria with East Jerusalem as its capital. Instead of seizing the opportunity and negotiating the details afterwards, "Palestinian" leader Arafat rejected the offer and instead launched the Second Intifada, a years-long war of suicide bombings and terror against the Israeli civilian population.

In 2008, Israel presented an even more far-reaching offer (the Olmert Plan), which was also rejected.

In both cases, the "Palestinians" were given the opportunity to establish their own state. However, in both cases, they let the opportunity pass them by. In reality, a state alongside Israel, rather than in place of Israel, was not an option for them.

With Israel's unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005, the "Palestinians" were once again given a great opportunity to develop their own viable "Palestinian" state.

Instead, the terrorist organization Hamas, which took power after the first and only elections, transformed Gaza into a highly militarized police state whose population was systematically indoctrinated, ideologized, and radicalized.

This was fueled and made possible by “humanitarian aid” and support for terrorism from abroad, and was particularly productive in the development of a military infrastructure with terror tunnels, weapons depots, booby traps, mines, and rocket launchers in formerly civilian facilities, from where southern Israel was subjected to constant bombardment for years.

If that's not enough to recognize what the "Palestinians" really want and what they don't want, then one should have understood it by Oct 7, 2023, at the latest. They want the destruction of the Jewish homeland. And a "Palestine" in place of Israel.

Of course, there are also those who strive for sovereignty alongside Israel rather than in its place. Those who prefer peace to eternal hatred. And those who are self-critical enough to recognize the opportunities that have been missed so far. How destructive the many negative decisions have been so far.

But not many people think that way. This is confirmed not only by numerous surveys, but also by the streamlined conformity and docility of "Palestinian" voices. How comprehensive the failure of the "Palestinian" leadership has been to date, and what dramatic consequences it has when one generation after another is fed myths of victimhood, self-pity, and hatred.

The vast majority of "Palestinians" see themselves primarily as victims of dark, colonialist, imperialist, and above all Zionist powers, and dream unwaveringly of a return to a "Palestine" that never existed (Here's why).

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

Or, as it says in the original Arabic version:

From water to water, Palestine will be Arab.

"Palestine" is to become Arab again. And the Jews will either be murdered, expelled, or subjugated. Israel experienced a glimpse of what it means when these dreams become reality on Oct 7, 2023. The invasion, barbarism, slaughter, torture, and genocidal murder of Jews perpetrated by Hamas and its accomplices show what the “liberation of Palestine” would look like. They reveal what the so-called return, which has been drummed into "Palestinians" since childhood, looks like. They illustrate what awaits the Jews of Israel in the event of an emergency.

The Jews of Israel faced their own destruction. Their own death. And collective annihilation.

But one thing has been clear ever since: Israel will not allow itself to be weak again. That moment will not be repeated. And the specter of death will not haunt Israel again anytime soon. Not from Gaza. Not from Judea and Samaria. And not from any kind of "Palestinian" state.

It is not the Jews who are to blame for the fact that the "Palestinians" still do not have their own state. Not the Zionists. Not the settlers. Not the Israeli right wing. And not Prime Minister Netanyahu either. The "Palestinians" themselves are to blame!

Admittedly, they were abused by their Arab brothers for decades as the spearhead in the fight against Israel. Not only were they kept in a state of permanent dependency by the UN, but they were also supported in their self-deception that they had an eternal right of return. They were stylized as victims, on whose backs Europeans in particular grew into their role as merciful benefactors. And they were instrumentalized by anti-Semites and Israel haters around the world as a weapon against Jews and the Jewish state.

But as badly as they were treated by their supposed allies and benefactors, the "Palestinians", are not just victims. Not just objects. They are subjects. Actors. Decision-makers. And those decisions have consequences. And despite the distractions, they bear responsibility for them.

The Arab-Palestinian path of all or nothing has failed. The attempt to destroy the Jewish state is backfired. And the course set for violence has brought nothing but countless deaths and endless suffering. Except certainty. Israeli certainty.

This means that there will be no further terrorist state on Israel's border, neither in Gaza nor in Judea and Samaria. Israel will not commit suicide with the assistance of the Europeans, nor will it accept euthanasia from the UN.

And as long as the "Palestinians" do not abandon their feverish dream of destroying Israel, nothing will change. They have always known this. Israel has learned it in the most brutal way imaginable. And the sooner the Europeans and the rest of the world finally understand this, the better.

 

[Vanellus]

I said that I don't care about the exact numbers, not that I don't care about humans. Your insinuation is that the Jews are responsible, mine is that the Arabs themselves are responsible and that the Israelis are just reacting to a necessary reality. The abortion comparison is a red herring.

The exact numbers do matter since each "number" represents a human being made in the image of God which applies to Palestinians and Jews. The false propaganda that the Arabs never ever wanted peace and it was solely the Arabs who blocked peace is a well known narrative proved to be false.

 

[tampasteve]

The exact numbers do matter since each "number" represents a human being made in the image of God which applies to Palestinians and Jews.

Give me a break, you know what I meant. Geeze Louise, get off of your high horse and touch grass.

The false propaganda that the Arabs never ever wanted peace and it was solely the Arabs who blocked peace is a well known narrative proved to be false.

Obviously we are not going to agree, so you can stop beating that drum.