Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Man doesn't naturally seek God without first hearing the word of God.

The natural man doesnt seek after God nor understands God Rom 3:11

 

[Brightfame52]

That's a lie. He commands us to love our enemies. All of them. You think He didn't love all of His enemies? Does He command us to do something that He didn't even do Himself?

Jesus doesnt love all sinners.

 

[Brightfame52]

Wrong. He commands us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44). Do you think He is a hypocrite and tells us to do what He doesn't even do Himself?

He only loved his own, and His own were enemies Rom 5 10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Brightfame52]

The question is, how does someone get to the point where they seek God?

By being born again

 

[tall73]

He only love his own in the world

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”​

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (NKJV)​

Did Jesus love him or not?

It says He Loved him, what is your point, Jesus loved many sinners.. Just not all of them.

You said Jesus only loved His own. But Jesus loved this man, and the man did not follow Jesus.

 

[Brightfame52]

You said Jesus only loved His own. But Jesus loved this man, and the man did not follow Jesus.

Not at that time but since Jesus loved him he would save him. Following Jesus is not a condition for salvation and His love is only for His own Jn 13:1

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

That's unfortunate, in my opinion.


I need some clarification of what you're saying here, which I don't think is the typical understanding of those who believe in the TULIP doctrine, which we typically label as Calvinists. It seems that you believe that God loves everyone and gave everyone the opportunity to be saved and gave them the choice to accept or reject His Son. But, you think He foresaw all of this from His eternal perspective and then sent His Son to die for those who He knew would choose to accept Him. Do I have that right? If so, that is not what Calvinists typically believe. A vast majority of them would not agree with you that God loves everyone and that He desires for all people to be saved.

Your statement regarding my understanding of God's love for all and His foreknowledge is accurate.

You are also correct about the diversity of beliefs among Calvinists. Not all Calvinists share my specific views, just as not everyone who agrees with your theology holds identical beliefs.

Two of my favorite Bible verses are:

Jonah 4: 10-11 “10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

These two Bible verses remind me that God's abundant grace is given to everyone, regardless of their past. No matter how we judge, every person is made in God's image and loved equally by God.

Election and limited atonement are real—not due to lack of love, but because of foreknowledge.

 

[tall73]

Not at that time but since Jesus loved him he would save him. Following Jesus is not a condition for salvation and His love is only for His own Jn 13:1

You say the passage doesn't deal with salvation. But what does the text say? The question the man asked was about inheriting eternal life:

​

Mark 10:17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” (NKJV)​

​

Jesus said He lacked one thing:

​

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”​

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.​

​

Which prompts Jesus to say:

23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!”​

​

​

24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”​

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”​

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”​

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”​

29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” (NKJV)​

​

 

[tall73]

Following Jesus is not a condition for salvation

Jesus says otherwise:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

[Brightfame52]

You say the passage doesn't deal with salvation. But what does the text say? The question the man asked was about inheriting eternal life:

Since Jesus loved him, He shall save him. Obviously he was one of His own He loved Jn 13:1

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus says otherwise:

No He doesnt, Salvation is by pure Grace not of works

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The natural man doesnt seek after God nor understands God Rom 3:11

All you have is your one liner responses. You are incapable of making a coherent, convincing argument using scripture. Cherry picking scripture is not the way to come to the truth.

Do you know that Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (and Psalm 53) in Romans 3:11? Have you ever bothered to look at that to see the context of it?

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? 5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. 6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge.

Notice that the context of what David wrote about here is in relation to those who say there is no God who he calls "workers of iniquity" and "who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord". Does that describe all people? No. Notice how he differentiated between those atheists and "my people" (God's people). So, it's not talking about literally no one ever seeking God or understanding God. God's people do. Those who say there is no God don't.

Before writing Romans 3:11 Paul had just written In Romans 1:18-32 about no one having any excuse to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God as God and for not being thankful to Him. Why would he follow that up by saying that literally no one seeks God? If no one can seek God then wouldn't that be a legitimate excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him? Of course it would. Yet, no one has any excuse for that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You said Jesus only loved His own. But Jesus loved this man, and the man did not follow Jesus.

You are talking to someone who is not willing to be honest. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with such a person.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your statement regarding my understanding of God's love for all and His foreknowledge is accurate.

You are also correct about the diversity of beliefs among Calvinists. Not all Calvinists share my specific views, just as not everyone who agrees with your theology holds identical beliefs.

Two of my favorite Bible verses are:

Jonah 4: 10-11 “10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

These two Bible verses remind me that God's abundant grace is given to everyone, regardless of their past. No matter how we judge, every person is made in God's image and loved equally by God.

Election and limited atonement are real—not due to lack of love, but because of foreknowledge.

I have never seen your view before, but in some ways it's closer to my view than the typical Calvinist view because you agree with me that God loves all people and genuinely gives all people the opportunity to be saved.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No He doesnt, Salvation is by pure Grace not of works

Submitting to Christ and putting your faith and trust in Him as your personal Lord and Savior is not a work. Scripture differentiates between faith and works (Ephesians 2:8-9, James 2), so why don't you?

Also, did you not even read the passage that tall73 quoted?

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Jesus said "whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it". Are you denying that one must be willing to give up their lives for His sake in order to be saved even though Jesus clearly said so?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus doesnt love all sinners.

Yes, He does. So, you think He commands us to love all sinners, including even our enemies, but He doesn't do the same? Why do you think that Jesus is a hypocrite?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He only loved his own, and His own were enemies Rom 5 10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Do you not think our enemies include those who are not reconciled to God by the death of His Son? Why do you always try to get around the truth? Our enemies includes those who are not saved and Jesus said that we should love them. He would not command us to do that if He didn't love all of His enemies as well.

 

[Fervent]

All you have is your one liner responses. You are incapable of making a coherent, convincing argument using scripture. Cherry picking scripture is not the way to come to the truth.

Do you know that Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (and Psalm 53) in Romans 3:11? Have you ever bothered to look at that to see the context of it?

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? 5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. 6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge.

Notice that the context of what David wrote about here is in relation to those who say there is no God who he calls "workers of iniquity" and "who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord". Does that describe all people? No. Notice how he differentiated between those atheists and "my people" (God's people). So, it's not talking about literally no one ever seeking God or understanding God. God's people do. Those who say there is no God don't.

Before writing Romans 3:11 Paul had just written In Romans 1:18-32 about no one having any excuse to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God as God and for not being thankful to Him. Why would he follow that up by saying that literally no one seeks God? If no one can seek God then wouldn't that be a legitimate excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him? Of course it would. Yet, no one has any excuse for that.

To add to this, Paul wasn't making a systematic theology in Romans. His point wasn't soteriological or anthropological, but pastoral. His concern was that the church in Rome was divided along ethnic lines with each side boasting about having a special claim to God's grace. So in Romans 3:11 what Paul is saying is not a sweeping generalization about human sin, but leveling the field to tell Jews and Gentiles alike that they are no better than one another.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I have never seen your view before, but in some ways it's closer to my view than the typical Calvinist view because you agree with me that God loves all people and genuinely gives all people the opportunity to be saved.

I mentioned in another thread that words like "election" and "chosen" can make it seem as though God selects some for salvation and others for damnation. Many who support TULIP use these terms since they're found in the Bible. However, most Calvinist I know typically believe that God's love and the offer of salvation are universal, but only a few will accept Jesus Christ.

I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church that emphasized "free will." My grandfather, a charismatic Baptist pastor, also believed in "free will" but not "preservation of the saints" (OSAS). This exposure allowed me to see passionate believers who think salvation can be lost or man can accept Christ on their free will. As someone who accepts TULIP, I have also encountered those who sincerely believe in limited atonement and the preservation of the saints.

While these discussions can be charming and contribute to a deeper understanding of scripture, the most essential issue remains whether a person has repented and accepted Christ. Other doctrinal topics, such as perseverance of salvation or limited atonement, are of significantly lesser importance. My priority is to see individuals come to faith, repent of their sins, accept Christ and pursue spiritual growth, rather than focusing on whether they subscribe to doctrines like limited atonement or the possibility of losing salvation.

Complete understanding of scripture is beyond our reach in this life; full comprehension will only be possible in eternity when God reveals His word to us. At present, what matters most is whether we have repented of our sins and accepted Christ as our personal Savior. Other theology hold significantly less importance by comparison.

 

[Fervent]

I mentioned in another thread that words like "election" and "chosen" can make it seem as though God selects some for salvation and others for damnation. Many who support TULIP use these terms since they're found in the Bible. However, most Calvinist I know typically believe that God's love and the offer of salvation are universal, but only a few will accept Jesus Christ.

I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church that emphasized "free will." My grandfather, a charismatic Baptist pastor, also believed in "free will" but not "preservation of the saints" (OSAS). This exposure allowed me to see passionate believers who think salvation can be lost or man can accept Christ on their free will. As someone who accepts TULIP, I have also encountered those who sincerely believe in limited atonement and the preservation of the saints.

While these discussions can be charming and contribute to a deeper understanding of scripture, the most essential issue remains whether a person has repented and accepted Christ. Other doctrinal topics, such as perseverance of salvation or limited atonement, are of significantly lesser importance. My priority is to see individuals come to faith, repent of their sins, accept Christ and pursue spiritual growth, rather than focusing on whether they subscribe to doctrines like limited atonement or the possibility of losing salvation.

Complete understanding of scripture is beyond our reach in this life; full comprehension will only be possible in eternity when God reveals His word to us. At present, what matters most is whether we have repented of our sins and accepted Christ as our personal Savior. Other theology hold significantly less importance by comparison.

You seem confused. Unconditional election is built into TULIP, so if you believe TULIP then you believe in unconditional election. Which means that God is selecting who to save, and by extension damning those He does not select. Wesleyans believe in election based on foreknowledge, whereas Calvinism is essentially defined by belief in Unconditional election and predestination where the only thing that separates the saved from the damned is God's decision.