Limited atonement !

[tall73]

If he was seeking the True God he was born again, naturally man doesnt seek after God

Jesus said to Nicodemus that Nicodemus was among those who needed to be born again. Why would I believe you saying the opposite? Your principle doesn't match up.

That is why I asked you about the context of Romans 3. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Nicodemus was responding to it, but Jesus said that Nicodemus was not yet born again.

And the context of the light coming into the world is a contrast with Nicodemus's actions. He said no one could do what Jesus did unless He were from God. But then he came to Jesus at night.

Hence the words:

John 3:19-21​

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (NKJV)​

Nicodemus needed to come into the light. And he did.

He began to speak on behalf of Jesus:

John 7:50-51​

50 Nicodemus (he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” (NKJV)​

Jesus had told him:

John 3:14-15​

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (NKJV)​

And when he saw Jesus lifted up, and knew Jesus' words were fulfilled, he came forward and helped prepare Jesus' body:

John 19:39​

39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. (NKJV)​

The Spirit was drawing him all along, and he responded.

 

[Brightfame52]

The irony is that the Scriptures you cite are all related, and have the same solution, whether John 6, John 10, John 13, John 17 etc.

Okay

 

[Brightfame52]

You haven't defined what regeneration is here.

Look it up

 

[Brightfame52]

I think since you refuse to discuss context, etc. you won't convince many. You seem fine with that. But in the meantime we will go on discussing the context you are ignoring, so that folks can see it.

It's in the context, you not in the Sunday school class

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus said to Nicodemus that Nicodemus was among those who needed to be born again. Why would I believe you saying the opposite? Your principle doesn't match up.

If he was seeking God then he was regenerated the natural man does not seek God Romans 3:10

 

[tall73]

He only love his own in the world

Not accurate. Jesus loved this man, though the man chose not to follow. This guy doesn't fit any of your systematic theology.

​

Mark 10:17-22​

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”​

18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”​

20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”​

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”​

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (NKJV)​

​

He sought out Jesus. He desired eternal life.

And it says Jesus loved Him. Jesus legitimately invited him to follow. But the cost was too high for the man, and he turned away.

 

[dms1972]

Interesting Blog I came across : Why Calvin is more biblical than some calvinists

Why Calvin is More Biblical Than Some Calvinists

Did John Calvin believe in “Limited Atonement” – the L in the famous TULIP acronym, which teaches that Christ did not die as an atonement for the sins of the whole world, but only for the elect? I don’t know. There are contradictory signals in Calvin’s writings. At times, it seems very clear...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[dms1972]

Look it up

No we need to know how you are using the term.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not accurate

Very accurate see Jn 13:1

 

[Brightfame52]

No we need to know how you are using the term.

Then look it up

 

[tall73]

Very accurate see Jn 13:1

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”​

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (NKJV)​

Did Jesus love him or not?

 

[Brightfame52]

21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”​

22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (NKJV)​

Did Jesus love him or not?

It says He Loved him, what is your point, Jesus loved many sinners.. Just not all of them.

 

[Brightfame52]

The atonement is limited because its only promised that one particular group of people shall be Justified in the Lord Jesus Christ,

Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

The seed of Israel, thats it. So when we read in Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is the seed of Israel. In Rom 4:16 they called the seed

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Abrahams seed that's Israel !

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If he was seeking God then he was regenerated the natural man does not seek God Romans 3:10

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Man doesn't naturally seek God without first hearing the word of God. One he hears the word of God then he must choose whether to accept or reject what he hears and there is nothing in scripture that says some are not capable of accepting the word of God. Scripture is clear that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). So, why would anyone have an excuse for rejecting the word of God, which is the truth, by suppressing it?

Your doctrine gives people an excuse for rejecting the word of God. It says that some are not able to accept it. That would be a great excuse for not accepting it. But, there is no excuse and that is why God is angry with those who don't accept it. You have God getting angry at people for no reason. Why would He be angry at people for not seeking Him and not believing in His Son if they don't have the ability to do so?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It says He Loved him, what is your point, Jesus loved many sinners.. Just not all of them.

That's a lie. He commands us to love our enemies. All of them. You think He didn't love all of His enemies? Does He command us to do something that He didn't even do Himself?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

He only loved his own

Wrong. He commands us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44). Do you think He is a hypocrite and tells us to do what He doesn't even do Himself?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am a strong believer of the TULIP doctrine: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints.

That's unfortunate, in my opinion.

The primary challenge associated with TULIP lies not in its doctrinal content, but rather in the terminology—words such as "Election," "chosen," and "limited" may inadvertently portray attributes of God that do not accurately reflect His nature. Individuals who are unfamiliar with TULIP might interpret terms such as "chosen," "Election," or "limited" to mean that proponents believe God does not love everyone, wishes to save only a select few, and is limited in His ability to offer salvation. This perspective, however, does not represent the beliefs of those who affirm Limited Atonement. God's grace is not confined to certain individuals; God desires all people to be saved, a principle consistently affirmed throughout scripture, which attests to God's universal love for creation.

Nevertheless, within this theological framework, it is understood that God possesses foreknowledge of who will accept His Son and thereby receive eternal life, even before the foundation of the world. Accordingly, God sent His Son to atone for the sins of those who would ultimately accept Him. The atonement, therefore, is not understood as a payment for the sins of all humanity indiscriminately, but specifically for those who would embrace Christ. Whether these individuals are referred to as "chosen," "special," "elected," or simply "people of the world," the essential point remains: God's omniscience enables Him to know in advance who will accept His Son, and the redemptive work of Christ is directed towards them.

I need some clarification of what you're saying here, which I don't think is the typical understanding of those who believe in the TULIP doctrine, which we typically label as Calvinists. It seems that you believe that God loves everyone and gave everyone the opportunity to be saved and gave them the choice to accept or reject His Son. But, you think He foresaw all of this from His eternal perspective and then sent His Son to die for those who He knew would choose to accept Him. Do I have that right? If so, that is not what Calvinists typically believe. A vast majority of them would not agree with you that God loves everyone and that He desires for all people to be saved.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Man by nature does not seek God Romans 3:11

No one is even saying otherwise, so this statement alone proves nothing one way or another.

The question is, how does someone get to the point where they seek God? And we know that people do seek God because scripture says He rewards those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).

Does someone have to be regenerated (born again) in order to seek God, as you believe? There is no scripture which teaches that. That's just something you assume based on your doctrinally biased reading of Romans 3:11. Scripture says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Scripture never says that faith comes by regeneration. One must first hear the word of God before they believe it, which makes sense. Hard to believe something you haven't heard. But, nowhere does scripture teach that some who hear the word of God and have the gospel preached to them are incapable of accepting it or that no one can accept it unless they are first regenerated.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Holy Spirit is at work I believe even before regeneration.

Right. And some resist Him.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

This was Stephen talking to the Sanhedrin and other Jewish leaders. Calvinists can't tell you what they were resisting here in relation to the Holy Spirit, but it should be obvious. Stephen was talking about how their forefathers rebelled against God going back to the days of Moses when they refused to listen to him. So they were resisting the Holy Spirit's prompting for them to repent and believe just as many of their forefathers did. But, Calvinists think that God only wants some to repent and not all people and that people can only repent if God gives them repentance. If that was the case, then in what sense exactly were those unbelieving Jewish leaders resisting the Holy Spirit? In the Calvinist doctrine, it seems that the Holy Spirit would have no interest in being involved with anyone except certain elect people and that the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. But, that doesn't line up with what we see in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Another example, the crowd at Pentecost was cut to the heart--but had not yet repented or received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:36-39​

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”​

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (NKJV)​

​

So is regeneration separate from repentance, or receiving the Holy Spirit?

No, it is not, but Calvinists do not understand that.