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Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

ViaCrucis

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I was wrong. If you truly are born again, God seals you until the day of redemption. The following verse tells us clearly:

1 John 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

If someone leaves the faith. I mean, they literally renounce everything and they truly do not believe the gospel. THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! I can tell you straight out...I will NEVER leave the faith. I LOVE the truth. And nothing could ever separate me from the love of God.

OSAS is true. Once you believe, God seals you and your name is written in the book of life. Everything taught about losing your salvation is legalism. Be careful not to trust certain "authorities" on the bible. Though one cannot lose their salvation over it, it will impact your fruite bearing, and your peace. I do apologize if I tripped anyone up in this thread. We're suppose to have joy in our salvation, and joy leads to bearing fruit and being an example to believers for their walk, and to unbelievers for the salvation of their souls. God bless people. We're going home very soon!!

This is a misunderstanding, and misapplication, of what St. John is saying in his epistle.

Here's some fuller context:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you have all knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, whoever denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us--eternal life.

I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in Him."

St. John is talking about false teachers, whom he names as antichrists. These false teachers did not remain in the apostolic faith, but left it, and have now become rogue, false teachers, espousing false doctrine that denies that Jesus is the Christ, denying the Father and the Son. These antichrists--these false teachers--are now trying to win converts over to their side, but John wants his audience to know that they already have the truth, what they were taught in the beginning is the truth, and it is an anointing that keeps them and holds them safe--that they continue to abide in Christ. They have no need to listen to these false teachers, they already have the teaching they need, which they have heard from the beginning--the apostolic teaching they have heard, believed, and continue to abide in is their refuge against false teaching which seeks to tear them away from their hope in Jesus.

John tells us, later, more about what these antichrists, these false teachers, are saying. Telling us what is meant by denying that Jesus is the Christ, denying the Father and the Son.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. But this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." - 1 John 4:1-3

John is talking about a specific group of false teachers who are espousing a particular set of false doctrines. These false teachers are some sort of proto-Gnostics, espousing some form of Docetism and Cerinthianism.

Docetism was an ancient heresy that said that Jesus only seemed (Greek, dokeo) to be human, but wasn't actually human and didn't have flesh. Docetists taught that Jesus was purely divine and purely spiritual, a kind of divine apparition. One of the most famous Docetic texts, the Acts of John, presents Jesus as able to change shape and form at will, sometimes appearing as a normal adult man and other times as a small child; in the most famous passage from the text it says that Jesus was walking on the sand and left no footprints--because this Jesus had no real physical form. This is why John emphasizes Jesus coming in the flesh.

Cerinthianism was an ancient, and somewhat related heresy, named after its chief proponent Cerinthus. Cerinthus taught that Jesus wasn't the Christ, instead "the Christ" in Cerinthus' thinking was a spiritual being or entity that condescended and entered into the human person of Jesus at Jesus' baptism. At this point Jesus' own personality was over-ruled and transformed, and Christ spoke through Jesus, Jesus' body was merely a vehicle or vessel through which Christ spoke. When Jesus was arrested and crucified, the Christ departed Jesus' body, leaving Jesus confused and afraid, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" means something VERY different in Cerinthus' beliefs. In this way John emphasizes that Jesus IS the Christ.

Jesus is the Christ and He came in the flesh. To say otherwise is to reject Jesus, to reject the Son; and to reject the Son then is to deny the Father and the Son. It is a rejection of God, a rejection of Jesus, a total rejection of the truth. It is antichrist. Which is precisely what St. John calls it.

This has nothing to do with people who fall away from the Christian faith, people who, through various reasons, end up losing faith or throwing their faith away. This is very specifically about false teachers espousing a peculiar and very troubling set of heresies.

These proto-Gnostic beliefs would, in time, become the scaffolding onto which later Gnostic and near-Gnostic teachers and heretics and heretical movements would be built from. Marcion of Sinope would come later, adding another scaffolding: The claim that YHWH was a false god and that Jesus introduced a brand new god called "Father" that is entirely different from the Old Testament God. All of this could come together to give disparate Gnostic groups scaffolding to say things like that the creator of the physical universe was a foolish, or even evil, false ignorant being and the angels are evil archons--rulers--who keep the souls of men imprisoned in bodies of flesh and enslaved to ignorance--and only the truly enlightened can attain true knowledge and become free and return to the pleroma of light, the realm of pure spirit of the impersonal undifferentiated "Father" (envisioned as a quasi-impersonal cosmic monadic force). For the soul must ascend out of matter and return to pure light and spirit, claimed certain Gnostic teachers. Thus Jesus wasn't the Messianic King promised by YHWH through the Prophets to bring redemption to the world, but a cosmic teacher of gnosis whose secrets could aid the soul and bring "salvation" (rescue from physical matter) through escape from ignorance and the material world.

We are seeing the earliest inklings of some of the most pernicious heresies that the devil would attack the Christian Church with from within which Christianity has ever seen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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This is a misunderstanding, and misapplication, of what St. John is saying in his epistle.
Here's some fuller context:
"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you have all knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, whoever denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us--eternal life.

I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in Him."

St. John is talking about false teachers, whom he names as antichrists. These false teachers did not remain in the apostolic faith, but left it, and have now become rogue, false teachers, espousing false doctrine that denies that Jesus is the Christ, denying the Father and the Son. These antichrists--these false teachers--are now trying to win converts over to their side, but John wants his audience to know that they already have the truth, what they were taught in the beginning is the truth, and it is an anointing that keeps them and holds them safe--that they continue to abide in Christ. They have no need to listen to these false teachers, they already have the teaching they need, which they have heard from the beginning--the apostolic teaching they have heard, believed, and continue to abide in is their refuge against false teaching which seeks to tear them away from their hope in Jesus.

John tells us, later, more about what these antichrists, these false teachers, are saying. Telling us what is meant by denying that Jesus is the Christ, denying the Father and the Son.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. But this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." - 1 John 4:1-3
John is talking about a specific group of false teachers who are espousing a particular set of false doctrines.
Anyone who departs the faith was never (one of us) born again (1 Jn 2:19), did not have God's approval (1 Co 11:19).

The born again do not leave the faith, they are kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5, Heb 10:39).
These false teachers are some sort of proto-Gnostics, espousing some form of Docetism and Cerinthianism.
Docetism was an ancient heresy that said that Jesus only seemed (Greek, dokeo) to be human, but wasn't actually human and didn't have flesh. Docetists taught that Jesus was purely divine and purely spiritual, a kind of divine apparition. One of the most famous Docetic texts, the Acts of John, presents Jesus as able to change shape and form at will, sometimes appearing as a normal adult man and other times as a small child; in the most famous passage from the text it says that Jesus was walking on the sand and left no footprints--because this Jesus had no real physical form. This is why John emphasizes Jesus coming in the flesh.

Cerinthianism was an ancient, and somewhat related heresy, named after its chief proponent Cerinthus. Cerinthus taught that Jesus wasn't the Christ, instead "the Christ" in Cerinthus' thinking was a spiritual being or entity that condescended and entered into the human person of Jesus at Jesus' baptism. At this point Jesus' own personality was over-ruled and transformed, and Christ spoke through Jesus, Jesus' body was merely a vehicle or vessel through which Christ spoke. When Jesus was arrested and crucified, the Christ departed Jesus' body, leaving Jesus confused and afraid, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" means something VERY different in Cerinthus' beliefs. In this way John emphasizes that Jesus IS the Christ.

Jesus is the Christ and He came in the flesh. To say otherwise is to reject Jesus, to reject the Son; and to reject the Son then is to deny the Father and the Son. It is a rejection of God, a rejection of Jesus, a total rejection of the truth. It is antichrist. Which is precisely what St. John calls it.

This has nothing to do with people who fall away from the Christian faith, people who, through various reasons, end up losing faith or throwing their faith away. This is very specifically about false teachers espousing a peculiar and very troubling set of heresies.

These proto-Gnostic beliefs would, in time, become the scaffolding onto which later Gnostic and near-Gnostic teachers and heretics and heretical movements would be built from. Marcion of Sinope would come later, adding another scaffolding: The claim that YHWH was a false god and that Jesus introduced a brand new god called "Father" that is entirely different from the Old Testament God. All of this could come together to give disparate Gnostic groups scaffolding to say things like that the creator of the physical universe was a foolish, or even evil, false ignorant being and the angels are evil archons--rulers--who keep the souls of men imprisoned in bodies of flesh and enslaved to ignorance--and only the truly enlightened can attain true knowledge and become free and return to the pleroma of light, the realm of pure spirit of the impersonal undifferentiated "Father" (envisioned as a quasi-impersonal cosmic monadic force). For the soul must ascend out of matter and return to pure light and spirit, claimed certain Gnostic teachers. Thus Jesus wasn't the Messianic King promised by YHWH through the Prophets to bring redemption to the world, but a cosmic teacher of gnosis whose secrets could aid the soul and bring "salvation" (rescue from physical matter) through escape from ignorance and the material world.

We are seeing the earliest inklings of some of the most pernicious heresies that the devil would attack the Christian Church with from within which Christianity has ever seen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Romans 8

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Anyone who departs the faith was never (one of us) born again (1 Jn 2:19), did not have God's approval (1 Co 11:19).

The born again do not leave the faith, they are kept by the power of God (1 Pe 1:5, Heb 10:39).
Exactly. I could not and would not even think about leaving the faith.

John 6:67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Amen!
 
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caffeinated hermit

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I love how there's this incredibly detailed, context-heavy, scholarly response, and then someone's just like "Nope, one-verse Bible quotes out of context". Yay, CF.

Someday! Someday everyone's gonna get back together.
rainbow_1f308.png
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I love how there's this incredibly detailed, context-heavy, scholarly response, and then someone's just like "Nope, one-verse Bible quotes out of context". Yay, CF.

Someday! Someday everyone's gonna get back together.
rainbow_1f308.png

Some folks only read the Bible. Alone and apart from any other information in the world. And that's the perennial problem.
 
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Mercy Shown

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I was wrong. If you truly are born again, God seals you until the day of redemption. The following verse tells us clearly:

1 John 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

If someone leaves the faith. I mean, they literally renounce everything and they truly do not believe the gospel. THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! I can tell you straight out...I will NEVER leave the faith. I LOVE the truth. And nothing could ever separate me from the love of God.

OSAS is true. Once you believe, God seals you and your name is written in the book of life. Everything taught about losing your salvation is legalism. Be careful not to trust certain "authorities" on the bible. Though one cannot lose their salvation over it, it will impact your fruite bearing, and your peace. I do apologize if I tripped anyone up in this thread. We're suppose to have joy in our salvation, and joy leads to bearing fruit and being an example to believers for their walk, and to unbelievers for the salvation of their souls. God bless people. We're going home very soon!!
So will you never leave the faith because you choose not to?
 
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ARBITER01

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Some folks only read the Bible. Alone and apart from any other information in the world. And that's the perennial problem.

Well,..... it's not a problem if you're truly dependent upon The Holy Spirit and His teachings,.... but many folks are not truly dependent upon GOD that way, and they consider other sources of information without taking that input to GOD first to ensure they are receiving truth or not.

Personally,.... there's a difference between saying you have The Holy Spirit and actually receiving the filling and having Him inside. That may ruffle some feathers, but at this point, maybe they need to be ruffled.
 
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RandyPNW

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I was wrong. If you truly are born again, God seals you until the day of redemption. The following verse tells us clearly:

1 John 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

If someone leaves the faith. I mean, they literally renounce everything and they truly do not believe the gospel. THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! I can tell you straight out...I will NEVER leave the faith. I LOVE the truth. And nothing could ever separate me from the love of God.

OSAS is true. Once you believe, God seals you and your name is written in the book of life. Everything taught about losing your salvation is legalism. Be careful not to trust certain "authorities" on the bible. Though one cannot lose their salvation over it, it will impact your fruite bearing, and your peace. I do apologize if I tripped anyone up in this thread. We're suppose to have joy in our salvation, and joy leads to bearing fruit and being an example to believers for their walk, and to unbelievers for the salvation of their souls. God bless people. We're going home very soon!!
I agree with you and OSAS. I didn't call me to be Saved, though I know many are called to Christianity. God called me not just to Christianity but to be Saved, as well.

I couldn't have even known I needed it, nor could I be good enough to want it. He simply revealed something to me, who is someone He planned from eternity. Who am I to resist this calling? I can choose to sin, but I cannot choose against my own nature.

When people think they are never really saved until the end of their lives they are always striving, wondering if they're really going to be Saved. Not a pleasant life, and not conducive to peace. I like OSAS.
 
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fhansen

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Personally,.... there's a difference between saying you have The Holy Spirit and actually receiving the filling and having Him inside. That may ruffle some feathers, but at this point, maybe they need to be ruffled.
Yes, and there’s a difference between those who say they have the Holy Spirit but have no good fruit in their lives to show for it. That filling must produce, or it’s just talk.
 
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Bro.T

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I was wrong. If you truly are born again, God seals you until the day of redemption. The following verse tells us clearly:

1 John 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

If someone leaves the faith. I mean, they literally renounce everything and they truly do not believe the gospel. THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! I can tell you straight out...I will NEVER leave the faith. I LOVE the truth. And nothing could ever separate me from the love of God.

OSAS is true. Once you believe, God seals you and your name is written in the book of life. Everything taught about losing your salvation is legalism. Be careful not to trust certain "authorities" on the bible. Though one cannot lose their salvation over it, it will impact your fruite bearing, and your peace. I do apologize if I tripped anyone up in this thread. We're suppose to have joy in our salvation, and joy leads to bearing fruit and being an example to believers for their walk, and to unbelievers for the salvation of their souls. God bless people. We're going home very soon!!
Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY.

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Like I said earlier that just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.
 
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ARBITER01

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Yes, and there’s a difference between those who say they have the Holy Spirit but have no good fruit in their lives to show for it. That filling must produce, or it’s just talk.

The fruits and the gifts are a package deal with The Holy Spirit. There's not a single instance where someone received The Holy Spirit in scripture and only received the fruit.

Not trying to steer this in another direction, just pointing out that a lot of folks on here are not Holy Spirit led and taught, and they think that they are.
 
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Romans 8

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And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.
That's strange. What do you think happened with the penitent thief on the cross? For some people, I agree it's a process. But for others, why can't they believe instantly?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well,..... it's not a problem if you're truly dependent upon The Holy Spirit and His teachings,.... but many folks are not truly dependent upon GOD that way, and they consider other sources of information without taking that input to GOD first to ensure they are receiving truth or not.

Personally,.... there's a difference between saying you have The Holy Spirit and actually receiving the filling and having Him inside. That may ruffle some feathers, but at this point, maybe they need to be ruffled.

There most certainly is a difference, isn't there? Which is why I'm offering you my other cheek as well, Mr. Feather Ruffler.

One of these days, my fellow Trinitarian Christian brethren of all stripes are going to realize I've always been here to pull us together, not to tear us apart. I'm not sure why, when we all have the Holy Spirit, this isn't easier for us to manage. Is it my imagination or does it feel almost like there's some dark force trying to separate us?

In the meantime, and in line with the theme of this thread, I'll just say that although I don't think OSAS is the best way to express our "being sealed in the Holy Spirit," I think we can all see from the New Testament writings that Jesus isn't in the business of punting anyone out of His Body who truly wants to be there. In fact, it's been said He even goes chasing after those who stray ........................................
 
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Clare73

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I love how there's this incredibly detailed, context-heavy, scholarly response, and then someone's just like "Nope, one-verse Bible quotes out of context". Yay, CF.
Are you saying truth is measured by volume of words, that 1000 words of "context-heavy, scholarly response" can overturn "one-verse" such as Jn 3:18, ". . .whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already"?
Do you understand the nature of truth. . .that it's not based on number of words. . .are you in the wrong discussion?
 
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fhansen

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The fruits and the gifts are a package deal with The Holy Spirit. There's not a single instance where someone received The Holy Spirit in scripture and only received the fruit.

Not trying to steer this in another direction, just pointing out that a lot of folks on here are not Holy Spirit led and taught, and they think that they are.
And I'm sure that's true. My point was only that the gifts and fruits will reveal themselves in good fruit actually produced, external evidence of our relationship with God, IOW.
 
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ARBITER01

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And I'm sure that's true. My point was only that the gifts and fruits will reveal themselves in good fruit actually produced, external evidence of our relationship with God, IOW.

That is correct.
 
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ARBITER01

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There most certainly is a difference, isn't there? Which is why I'm offering you my other cheek as well, Mr. Feather Ruffler.

One of these days, my fellow Trinitarian Christian brethren of all stripes are going to realize I've always been here to pull us together, not to tear us apart. I'm not sure why, when we all have the Holy Spirit, this isn't easier for us to manage. Is it my imagination or does it feel almost like there's some dark force trying to separate us?

In the meantime, and in line with the theme of this thread, I'll just say that although I don't think OSAS is the best way to express our "being sealed in the Holy Spirit," I think we can all see from the New Testament writings that Jesus isn't in the business of punting anyone out of His Body who truly wants to be there. In fact, it's been said He even goes chasing after those who stray ........................................

Oh I wasn't going after you, I was just making a statement from your post.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh I wasn't going after you, I was just making a statement from your post.

Well, alright. But just know I've learned a little bit from all segments of the Christian faith, even from a Pentacostal or two.........
 
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caffeinated hermit

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Are you saying truth is measured by volume of words, that 1000 words of "context-heavy, scholarly response" can overturn "one-verse"...?
Not overturn, but clarify. Depends.

Hypostatic union? The meaning of Revelation? The state of the soul after death? Just depends.

It's just that the aforementioned dialogue is something I've seen over and over on here. Long, well-researched, historically grounded essay followed by a Bible verse taken totally out of context. I'm an optimist, though, and I still want to hope that reunification, even in spite of incredible differences, is possible someday.
 
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Clare73

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Hypostatic union?
Where is that in Scripture?

Jesus had two distinct natures, human and divine, in one person. just as the Trinity has three distinct persons in one Being.
The meaning of Revelation?
The book of Revelation is prophecy, which is not spoken clearly (Nu 12:t-8) as are all the prophetic books, and subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being there must be no disagreement with NT teaching.
The state of the soul after death?
The same as the state of the immortal spirit (2 Co 5:1-9); i.e., with the Lord.
 
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