Empathy

[Godcrazy]

Someone better tell those Christians who talk about how beautiful and meaningful suffering is.

I am not a Christian anymore myself but when I lost my faith I realized how much many in those circles glorify pain. Sorry, but the idea that sadomasochism doesn't deserve to be discussed in Christian circles is ridiculous.

I am not saying all Christians glorify pain. Out of the billions of Christians who ever existed there exist a wide variety of psychology.. just the idea that a religion that teaches the greatest act of love is being tortured and killed for another doesn't inspire sadomasochistic ideas of love isn't realistic.

Saying that Christianity teaches torturing and killing shows you don't understand what Jesus did and why he came as well not being a Christian. You know fully well why jesus did and why everything as you have been in it so what's your point even

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Someone better tell those Christians who talk about how beautiful and meaningful suffering is.

I am not a Christian anymore myself but when I lost my faith I realized how much many in those circles glorify pain. Sorry, but the idea that sadomasochism doesn't deserve to be discussed in Christian circles is ridiculous.

I am not saying all Christians glorify pain. Out of the billions of Christians who ever existed there exist a wide variety of psychology.. just the idea that a religion that teaches the greatest act of love is being tortured and killed for another doesn't inspire sadomasochistic ideas of love isn't realistic.

I definitely don't glorify pain. And I would contend that the greatest act of love of being crucified for the rest of humanity doesn't by any necessity mean we need to follow Christ by following suit with St. Ignatius. Martyrdom is, from what I read in the Bible, something to avoid if possible. But in the case of living in the ancient Roman Empire under idiots like Caesar Nero or his imitators, avoiding martyrdom wasn't always possible.

 

[bèlla]

This is a Christian forum where people try to follow the Bible, as such we don't want to take part of unfruitful discussions against the bible

He joined the forum before his position changed and has been here since 2007. If you don’t want to engage with his posts stop responding.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

I am not a Christian anymore myself but when I lost my faith I realized how much many in those circles glorify pain. Sorry, but the idea that sadomasochism doesn't deserve to be discussed in Christian circles is ridiculous.

I think believers respond to negative things far more than the opposite and for many it’s their comfort zone. You’re not going to see an emphasis on having a positive mindset, gratitude or messages on joy outside of social media. It’s not part of the culture and the absence can give the appearance of an over emphasis on suffering. Perhaps there is.

I suspect that’s why I don’t miss fellowship or being in a religious setting. I don’t want to talk about bad things and there were moments when it felt like therapy. Bearing one another’s burdens is where I drop the ball. Not because I can’t as you’re aware. But I do it selectively to prevent overwhelm. There was a time when I was always there and eager to assist. Now I want to be left alone. ~lol

~bella

 

[PloverWing]

So help me understand how and WHY empathy is bad.

I don't know for sure what Mr. Kirk intended, but there have been some recent books by conservative Evangelicals on the topic of empathy: "The Sin of Empathy: Compassion and its Counterfeits", by Joe Rigney, and "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion", by Allie Beth Stuckey. I suspect Kirk may have had one or both of them in mind. I'm not going to be able to summarize their viewpoint fairly (I know I will end up caricaturing them, so I will refrain), but here are two relevant articles.

1) Albert Mohler interviews Joe Rigney. Note that both are favorable to the anti-empathy point of view.

The Sin of Empathy — A Conversation with Joe Rigney - AlbertMohler.com

Cultural commentary from a Biblical perspective

albertmohler.com

2) An article from the AP, posted on PBS's website. This author is more impartial, but I think the writer is trying to be fair.

Is empathy a sin? Some conservative Christians argue it can be

Those Christians claim empathy can manipulate people into accepting what they see as sins, like abortion access and LGBTQ+ rights.

www.pbs.org

 

[rambot]

I don't know for sure what Mr. Kirk intended, but there have been some recent books by conservative Evangelicals on the topic of empathy: "The Sin of Empathy: Compassion and its Counterfeits", by Joe Rigney, and "Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion", by Allie Beth Stuckey. I suspect Kirk may have had one or both of them in mind. I'm not going to be able to summarize their viewpoint fairly (I know I will end up caricaturing them, so I will refrain), but here are two relevant articles.

1) Albert Mohler interviews Joe Rigney. Note that both are favorable to the anti-empathy point of view.

The Sin of Empathy — A Conversation with Joe Rigney - AlbertMohler.com

Cultural commentary from a Biblical perspective

albertmohler.com

2) An article from the AP, posted on PBS's website. This author is more impartial, but I think the writer is trying to be fair.

Is empathy a sin? Some conservative Christians argue it can be

Those Christians claim empathy can manipulate people into accepting what they see as sins, like abortion access and LGBTQ+ rights.

www.pbs.org

Thanks to trump there are Christians who don't even follow the teachings of Jesus because "it just doesn't work anymore".

So I'm sure there is space for almost anything now. I'm not making space for it...

 

[bèlla]

Thanks to trump there are Christians who don't even follow the teachings of Jesus because "it just doesn't work anymore".

So I'm sure there is space for almost anything now. I'm not making space for it...

You can’t blame him for that. Religion is a placeholder for some. If we heed the promptings of the Holy Spirit we won’t be deceived. My affinity with conservatives ended during his first term and we became apolitical and never looked back.

For it would have been better for them not to have [personally] known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to have turned back from the holy commandment [verbally] handed on to them.

~bella

 

[St_Worm2]

If he really was a christian he must have meant something else.

Hello Godcrazy, you make a very important point. How can we possibly know what Charlie Kirk meant (or what any other person means, for that matter) from a single sentence or two taken out-of-context

Of course, if we knew the context and understood what he really meant (& why he said what he did in the way that he did) that would all but eliminate the opportunity for conjecturing and judgmentalism, etc., and what fun would that be

God bless you!!

--David

edit - here's a Snopes article about the OP quote. It includes a bit of context, though more would have been helpful (see the typed quote in the larger yellow box towards the bottom). However, I think that it's enough to understand that his comment about empathy was specific, rather than general in nature (as it concerns political discourse).

The little quote of his from "X" just below it may be helpful, as well (I believe they were both made on the same day in 2022), but again, more context would be nice.

 

[Servus]

The left goes on and on about empathy and how much empathy they have, and yet displayed a complete and total lack of empathy and compassion over the assassination of Charlie Kirk. We got a good look at who they really are.

 

[Larniavc]

I cannot understand why a person would have a problem with empathy.

Because you might accidentally help someone on the ‘to be hated list’. And we can’t have that.

 

[Larniavc]

Empathy is a passion

No it isn’t.

 

[Larniavc]

But if someone is having an emotional breakdown, a person can empathize with that...

Therapists are trained to do just that.

 

[Larniavc]

From this additionally: Could it be that in Charlie Kirk's conception of empathy, he allocates it by principles rather than by personal feelings to those whom he thinks are the most victimized human beings, and that due to this difference of allocation, we may have a difficult time understanding his working definition because it reorganizes and reprioritizes the categories and principles any of us tend to use to classify "who" is a victim and under what circumstance our felt empathy (and sympathy) is to be given to that victim? [See one of a number of textbooks on Ethics, such as Ethics: An Introduction to Theories and Problems by William S. Sahakian. ] And this is before we even bring in personal differences of neuroscience and psychology. Not everyone who sounds like a sociopath actually is. Sometimes, they just work from a different Ethic and a difference set of emotional attachments to certain moral categories.

I dunno whether it’s a sign to the end times but I agree with you on this.

It does have an interesting implication for Kirk’s psychology.

 

[NBB]

The left goes on and on about empathy and how much empathy they have, and yet displayed a complete and total lack of empathy and compassion over the assassination of Charlie Kirk. We got a good look at who they really are.

The people supposedly with 'empathy' and 'tolerance' wishing death and celebrating it, because they had different opinions, hey is not that being hateful and not having empathy was bad?.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I dunno whether it’s a sign to the end times but I agree with you on this.

It does have an interesting implication for Kirk’s psychology.

Yes, it does. Which is why I place most of my intellectual and academic eggs into the baskets of Epistemology, Hermeneutics, History and Neuroscience in order to attempt to gain an understanding of the mental mechanisms within another person's perspective.

All of us can do better to try to understand each other, but it will require much more than simply a 'free space' in which to debate. Not that I need to tell you, the Therapist, this.

 

[o_mlly]

No it isn’t.

Thank you for your in-depth response.

empathy(n.)​

1908, modeled on German Einfühlung (from ein "in" + Fühlung "feeling"), which was coined 1858 by German philosopher Rudolf Lotze (1817-1881) as a translation of Greek empatheia "passion, state of emotion," from assimilated form of en "in" (see en- (2)) + pathos "feeling" (from PIE root *kwent(h)- "to suffer").

Empathy - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

Originating in 1908 from German Einfühlung (ein "in" + Fühlung "feeling"), derived from Greek empatheia meaning "passion, state of emotion," it denotes art apprec...

www.etymonline.com

​

So, is empathy a passion? Yes, it is.

Like I said earlier... When it comes to emotional empathy, I have a hard time believing those higher on the sadomasochistic spectrum do not have an significant edge.

Perhaps I am missing your point but it seems that you propose that one with a disordered attitude on human relations is at an advantage to be empathetic. I would argue the contrary; they have a propensity to be narcissistic.

Sadomasochistic persons embrace a psychological defense mechanism that allows individuals to escape feelings of isolation and powerlessness by submitting to others. Do not all sadomasochistic persons have a reciprocal masochistic person with whom they willingly participate in a cycle of control and dependence?

The opposite pole to narcissism is objectivity; it is the faculty to see other people and things as they are, objectively. The faculty to think objectively is reason; the emotional attitude behind reason is that of humility. To be objective, to use one's reason, is possible only if one has achieved an attitude of humility. (Romans 3:23.)

 

[Larniavc]

Which is why I place most of my intellectual and academic eggs in the baskets of Epistemology, Hermeneutics, History and Neuroscience in order to attempt to gain an understanding of the mental mechanisms within another person's perspective.

Hm. You’ve given me something to think about, there.

 

[Larniavc]

So, is empathy a passion? Yes, it is.

Don’t be silly.

 

[o_mlly]

Don’t be silly.

For, e'en though vanquished, he could argue still,
While words of learned length and thundering sound
Amazed the gazing rustics ranged around;
And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew
That one small head could carry all he knew.

The Village Schoolmaster by Oliver Goldsmith​

 

[Larniavc]

For, e'en though vanquished, he could argue still,
While words of learned length and thundering sound
Amazed the gazing rustics ranged around;
And still they gazed, and still the wonder grew
That one small head could carry all he knew.

The Village Schoolmaster by Oliver Goldsmith​

Once again with feeling: don’t be silly.