For all eternity - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to Worship"

[BobRyan]

Well then - let's read the actual text.

Isaiah 66: 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

That's not the goal of the account,

It does not matter since the fact above is sufficient detail in the text to show that the text itself is bringing up the topic of the weekly Sabbath and informing the readers (who well knew about the Ten and knew about the Sabbath commandment) - that the Sabbath they knew -- would continue into the New Earth for all eternity.

This is very different from "the Sabbath will not be kept in the New Earth".

that's a single verse

Indeed it is -- and the "details in it" are sufficient to refute the suggestion that one needs to "add to it" to get a text that shows the reader that the Sabbath is kept for all eternity in the New Earth.

It is a detail that supports the goal

IT is a detail that many find to be "inconvenient"

I'm encouraging you to look at the account in its context to determine the goal.

No doubt the continued integrity of God's Law and specifically His command regarding the Sabbath day of worship fits the entire chapter where obedience to the Word of God - is always affirmed and rebellion is condemned.

For example in the same chapter we have -



6 The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the Lord,
Who fully repays His enemies!
....
14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
And your bones shall flourish like grass;
The hand of the Lord shall be known to His servants,
And His indignation to His enemies.
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.


God supports obedience and ends rebellion. Is 66:23 shows an eternity of blessing and obedience will be the result.
Worship in the context of obedience is always affirmed by God.

The account is regarding the judgment of God, his answer of salvation and concludes with a promise of the new.

Indeed - in the chapter His judgment destroys rebellion and it ends with a creation in harmony with God's Word.

There are no conclusive statements regarding sabbath worship

If we ignore enough details in the text - I suppose we could end up on an idea like that.

 

[BobRyan]

I was surprised how many seventh day observers believed that the new moon would occur every fourth Sabbath in the new heavens and new earth

oh ... ok .. I don't see that spelled out in Is 66.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well then - let's read the actual text.

Isaiah 66: 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

It does not matter since the fact above is sufficient detail in the text to show that the text itself is bringing up the topic of the weekly Sabbath and informing the readers (who well knew about the Ten and knew about the Sabbath commandment) - that the Sabbath they knew -- would continue into the New Earth for all eternity.

This is very different from "the Sabbath will not be kept in the New Earth".

Indeed it is -- and the "details in it" are sufficient to refute the suggestion that one needs to "add to it" to get a text that shows the reader that the Sabbath is kept for all eternity in the New Earth.

IT is a detail that many find to be "inconvenient"

No doubt the continued integrity of God's Law and specifically His command regarding the Sabbath day of worship fits the entire chapter where obedience to the Word of God - is always affirmed and rebellion is condemned.

For example in the same chapter we have -



6 The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the Lord,
Who fully repays His enemies!
....
14 When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
And your bones shall flourish like grass;
The hand of the Lord shall be known to His servants,
And His indignation to His enemies.
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.


God supports obedience and ends rebellion. Is 66:23 shows an eternity of blessing and obedience will be the result.
Worship in the context of obedience is always affirmed by God.

Indeed - in the chapter His judgment destroys rebellion and it ends with a creation in harmony with God's Word.

If we ignore enough details in the text - I suppose we could end up on an idea like that.

the text does not draw upon the characteristic of sabbath worship nor sabbath worship instruction. it cannot be forced on the text merely by its mention, especially with the wide use of metaphor. if we do force it, then we need to force sacrificial laws as well for the same reasons since they are also mentioned in the text. Certainly, to the immediate audience, it invokes a specific meaning (as the sacrificial laws do), in context however the meaning is regarding a time boundary not instruction and/or quality of worship. repeating this broken record doesn't change the gross lack of information that text has to support what you're trying to cram into it.

the preposition used in the text "from" (strongs 1767. day) is quantitative, not qualitative, in correlation to a reference of time it is then a preposition of time representing a period with start and end boundaries. the text can be reduced to "from X to X, and from Y to Y" if X and Y are both references of time, then the preposition inherits these time properties and is also a reference of time.

we also can not dismiss the prophetic genre of the text. There are unique styles to these genres and Hebrew poetic/prophetic styles often parallel concepts with similar-sounding words to drive a point. in this case it is from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath. The Hebrew is from "hodes" to "behadesow" and from "sabbat" to "besabbattow". behadesow/besabbattow have a natural rhyme and we can't dismiss this as intentional emphasis added to the text, this rhyming characteristic doesn't work with "from day to day", or "moment to moment". If you use these other words it would disrupt the flow for emphasis so the choice of these words have a better flow together because of how they sound together which is consistent and often a favoured approach in these prophetic stances of Hebrew.

as per the instruction of worship it is simply to bow down. from new moon to new moon, and sabbath to sabbath. there is nothing else informing us of instructions. the worship is not specially linked to the Sabbath, but rather for all days so doesn't fit well with your idea of sabbath worship, there is also no instruction of rest so again does not fit well with what you're trying to force in the text. I'm not opposed to championing sabbath/rest worship according to the 4th commandment broadly speaking, but I am opposed to taking a text out of its context to support something it simply cannot. use a different verse, this one doesn't help your cause.

 

[BobRyan]

Well then - let's read the actual text.

Isaiah 66: 23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

There we see the specifics of the weekly Sabbath worship - where the cycle for Sabbath and the worship aspect of Sabbath (as seen in Lev 23:1-4)
are referenced for the readers of Is 66:23 who most certainly were familiar with the scripture's teaching in Ex 20:8-11 and Is 58:13 and Lev 23:1-3

the text does not draw upon the characteristic of sabbath worship

You seem to be ignoring vs 23 so far.

Is it possible that you believe that every time the Sabbath is mentioned - the entire commandment must be repeated to then "discern' that it is the seventh-day of the week and a day of worship?

Notice in Acts 18:4 - "every Sabbath" Paul is preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews - and the text has no need to "repeat the entire Sabbath commandment" to convey that meaning to the reader.

nor sabbath worship instruction.

Indeed - Acts 18:4 does not repeat the entirety of "all Sabbath worship instructions" in scripture. But the readers would "get the point" all the same.

it cannot be forced on the text

No need to force what the readers already had as context.

 

[DamianWarS]

You seem to be ignoring vs 23 so far.

our conversation has only been regarding vs 23. this is ineffective rhetoric that only exposes your unwillingness for our discussion and is implicitly insulting to whom it is addressed to.

Is it possible that you believe that every time the Sabbath is mentioned - the entire commandment must be repeated to then "discern' that it is the seventh-day of the week and a day of worship?

this is more rhetoric. words can have nuanced meanings in the context they are used in, I don't demand a mechanical definition, I read the passage and discern its meaning from its use in the context

Notice in Acts 18:4 - "every Sabbath" Paul is preaching the Gospel to both gentiles and Jews - and the text has no need to "repeat the entire Sabbath commandment" to convey that meaning to the reader.

The author of Acts is using Sabbath as a reference to a day of the week, not to a specific practice of that day. We can neither affirm or deny what practices were encouraged on that day unless specifically referenced or cross references can affirm the teaching as common practice. this is no different with Isaiah 66, it is a time reference, not a reference to practice, and the goal of the account is not regarding sabbath adherence or practice. you may infer that from it if you want, and so could the immediate audience, but that would be from a position of bias not from what the text is saying. it is also a prophetic message which may have layered meanings, some of which may be appropriate for the immediate audience but may also lose their relevance for future generations who read the same text. this goes back to what is the core message of the account? the sabbath mention is a supporting detail to the goal, but it itself is not a competing goal.

 

[Leaf473]

oh ... ok .. I don't see that spelled out in Is 66.

Right, I don't either

That's why when the topic comes up I wonder why we will be keeping the new moon some time in the future, but it looks like we don't need to keep it now

Let no one therefore judge you in eating or drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon... Colossians 2:16

Another possible explanation is that the whole passage is symbolic or metaphorical or something

 

[Bro.T]

Is 66:23 "From new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"





Which would be total nonsense as "from 1:00pm to 4:00pm AND FROM 2:00pm to 3:00pm" -- by carefully glossing over the detail "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath" as clearly identifying TWO cycles - not one constant ... you get to the never-seen-in-the-Bible idea that "REMAIN" is to be wrenched into "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind COME BEFORE Me to worship". -- ( as if the Bible ever used such a back flip.)

Even your own fellow pro-sunday scholars admit to this being "two cycles" and not "one idea of -- REMAIN"






Of course they have to admit that this is "two cycles" and not "one idea of REMAIN all the time before the LORD" -- because the Bible already uses that form.

...

1. It shows that OT authors and readers had the concept of 7th day Sabbath applicable to "all mankind" in Is 66:23.
2. Reading the text we have admit that this Sabbath observance will be binding for all mankind for all of eternity even after the cross.
3. Is 56 - (same book, same author) is affirming gentiles who keep the Sabbath - as honoring God.
4. It is only when the second coming happens and the New Earth and New Heavens are established in Rev 21 that all the wicked have perished and so "All mankind" will be worshiping God, all will be Christians, all will be keeping the Sabbath not just the "Remnant" or "Israel" -- the "FEW" of Matt 7 keeping it on earth as Christians are by far the minority in this world. And of course at the second coming the man-denominations of Christianity become one united group.
5. And of course while the "new moon" is a physical "event" that takes place on a cycle - God's Holy "Sabbath" is a "practice" a "convention" and "observance" not a physical cycle in the heavens - so to worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" would require that "convention" to still exist.

This is true no matter if one is pro-Sunday or not.

I think all sides can see this point.

peace my brother....... I agree with everything you saying except for when you get to Revelation the 21st chapter because that goes into what the books say the eighth day, which is the Father kingdom. Now if we go back into revelation at 20th chapter, that talks about raining with Christ thousand years, which is his kingdom, and that's going to be with flesh and saints (immortals), those that come up in the first resurrection. Let's take a look because this is right after the great tribulation, let's go into Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. All this is going to happen at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet.

Lets find out who would be raise at this last trumpet. Lets go into 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Revelation 8:1-6)

So now, the seventh seal is open and its time to blow the seventh trumpet. Lets go into Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Lets go into 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

In 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

So when you go into Revelation 21st chapter we see the new heaven and new earth, let's continue...1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

So let me see if I can make the difference between the father kingdom and Jesus kingdom. In Jesus kingdom we will still have the sea in the father's kingdom there will be no more sea. In Jesus kingdom we still have flesh and blood, in the Father the kingdom there will be no more flesh and blood. The purpose of being circumcise on the eighth day is rolling back the flesh which on the eighth day in the father kingdom there is no more flesh. In Jesus kingdom there will still be pain and crying, in the fathers kingdom there will be no more crying and no more pain. In Jesus kingdom the second resurrection have not began, which is the Judgement. In the father kingdom all who made it in the first and second resurrection will be in his kingdom.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So let me see if I can make the difference between the father kingdom and Jesus kingdom. In Jesus kingdom we will still have the sea in the father's kingdom there will be no more sea. In Jesus kingdom we still have flesh and blood, in the Father the kingdom there will be no more flesh and blood. The purpose of being circumcise on the eighth day is rolling back the flesh which on the eighth day in the father kingdom there is no more flesh. In Jesus kingdom there will still be pain and crying, in the fathers kingdom there will be no more crying and no more pain. In Jesus kingdom the second resurrection have not began, which is the Judgement. In the father kingdom all who made it in the first and second resurrection will be in his kingdom.

Is Jesus not God? This makes it sound like there is a conflict in the Godhead and they share different Kingdoms, but that's not what the scriptures teach

Jesus is the Lamb
Rev 7:17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [a]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Bro.T]

Is Jesus not God?

Of course, but didn't Jesus say in John 5: 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Also Jesus said to the Father in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I see two here, how many do you see?

This makes it sound like there is a conflict in the Godhead and they share different Kingdoms, but that's not what the scriptures teach

Naw, just a lack of understanding and knowledge.

Jesus is the Lamb
Rev 7:17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [a]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

I see you just grab the ending part of what I post. All the scriptures in versus I quoted "why didn't you ask me for understanding of them. I don't disagree with the verses that you quoted but verses in scripture do not cancel out verses and Scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

1. It shows that OT authors and readers had the concept of 7th day Sabbath applicable to "all mankind" in Is 66:23.
2. Reading the text we have admit that this Sabbath observance will be binding for all mankind for all of eternity even after the cross.
3. Is 56 - (same book, same author) is affirming gentiles who keep the Sabbath - as honoring God.
4. It is only when the second coming happens and the New Earth and New Heavens are established in Rev 21 that all the wicked have perished and so "All mankind" will be worshiping God, all will be Christians, all will be keeping the Sabbath not just the "Remnant" or "Israel" -- the "FEW" of Matt 7 keeping it on earth as Christians are by far the minority in this world. And of course at the second coming the man-denominations of Christianity become one united group.
5. And of course while the "new moon" is a physical "event" that takes place on a cycle - God's Holy "Sabbath" is a "practice" a "convention" and "observance" not a physical cycle in the heavens - so to worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" would require that "convention" to still exist.

This is true no matter if one is pro-Sunday or not.


I think all sides can see this point.

peace my brother....... I agree with everything you saying except for when you get to Revelation the 21st chapter because that goes into what the books say the eighth day, which is the Father kingdom.

I know of no place in Rev 21 where it says "this is the 8th day"

Jesus states "All the the Father has is mine" John 16:15
Jesus states "if you have seen me - you have seen the Father" John 14

Jesus makes no distinction between his kingdom and the Father's kingdom.
in Dan 7 when Jesus comes to Earth - the text says the entire kingdom is turned over to Christ and the saints.

Now if we go back into revelation at 20th chapter, that talks about raining with Christ thousand years

agreed. But that is also the Father's kingdom.

and that's going to be with flesh and saints (immortals), those that come up in the first resurrection.

agreed.

Let's take a look because this is right after the great tribulation, let's go into Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

agreed.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

true. And notice that the only resurrection having the "blessed and holy" is the first resurrection. Nothing is said about the second resurrection also having "the blessed and holy" in it.

Also notice that we have the saints in the first resurrection and "the rest of the dead" do not come to life until after the 10000 years. The rest of the dead -- by definition - is specific to those who are not saints, those who are not blessed and holy. They are the lost. the wicked. The only thing said about those in the second resurrection is that they are judged and case into the lake of fire.

. All this is going to happen at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet.

The trumpets are before the 1000 years.
At the rapture -

1 Cor 15:
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Agreed - that is when the trumpets of 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15 are sounded.

So now, the seventh seal is open and its time to blow the seventh trumpet. Lets go into Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Yep. You also see that at the end of Dan 7.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

true.

Then the text goes back in time a bit to the point were the nations get angry - and when God's wrath then comes.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

Then we see "THE TIME when the DEAD should be judged" -- in vs 18. so then Rev 11:18
As Rev 14:6-7 predicts a point in time when it is said "The HOUR of His Judgment HAS come"
That hour is pointed to by Dan 7 and 8.

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged

So then the judgment of the "living and and dead" begins with "the time when the dead are to be judged"
And all during that time of judgment - the saints are persecuted as we see in Dan 7.
IT is only at the point that the judgment is completed that the persecution ends and the kingdom is turned over to Christ and the Saints. in Dan 7.

 

[BobRyan]

So when you go into Revelation 21st chapter we see the new heaven and new earth, let's continue...1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Indeed - after the 1000 years - there is
1. the second resurrection
2. the great white throne judgment
3. the lake of fire event
4. then the new Heavens and New Earth
5. The only ones left are those of the first resurrection and rapture event in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20:4-5 - the saints.

So let me see if I can make the difference between the father kingdom and Jesus kingdom. In Jesus kingdom we will still have the sea in the father's kingdom there will be no more sea.

Rev 21 does say - no more sea but does not say "not Jesus' Kingdom". Let's just call it the New Earth because in Dan 7 it is given to Christ.

In Jesus kingdom we still have flesh and blood, in the Father the kingdom there will be no more flesh and blood.

Hard to find that "no more flesh" and "No more blood" statement

1 John 3 "when He appears we will see Him as He is" and we are reminded that He ate with the disciples.

The purpose of being circumcise on the eighth day is rolling back the flesh which on the eighth day

interesting suggestion.

. In Jesus kingdom there will still be pain and crying

Where do you find such a thing?

In Jesus kingdom the second resurrection have not began, which is the Judgement.

The great white throne judgment is in Rev 20 after the 1000 year and comes after the 2nd resurrection. But "all judgement has been given over to the Son" according to Christ.

In the father kingdom all who made it in the first and second resurrection will be in his kingdom.

According to Rev 20 - no one in the 2nd resurrection is called "blessed and holy" that only is the case for what Rev 20 calls the "first resurrection" which is the one that we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18

====================

The New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21 is after the 1000 years and has all the saints gathering "from Sabbath to Sabbath" to worship God -- as we see in Is 66:23.

 

[Bro.T]

Indeed - after the 1000 years - there is
1. the second resurrection
2. the great white throne judgment
3. the lake of fire event
4. then the new Heavens and New Earth
5. The only ones left are those of the first resurrection and rapture event in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20:4-5 - the saints.

I agree, but not the order....
1. The only ones left are those of the first resurrection and rapture event in 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20:4-5 - the saints.
2. the great white throne judgment & second resurrection are together
3. the lake of fire event
4. then the new Heavens and New Earth

Rev 21 does say - no more sea but does not say "not Jesus' Kingdom". Let's just call it the New Earth because in Dan 7 it is given to Christ.

Hard to find that "no more flesh" and "No more blood" statement

Remember you have the Saints which are immortals now, came up in the first resurrection, now let's take a look at the other people in Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Also let's add in Isaiah 65: 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Let's take a peep at this in Zechariah 8: 3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. 4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. 5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

Saints which are immortals don't get old, because this is Jesus Kingdom this is all within the thousand year millennial period. The Father is still in heaven at this time, because this day represents the seventh day, this why we keep the Sabbath to this day. Remember in 1 Peter 3: 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1 John 3 "when He appears we will see Him as He is" and we are reminded that He ate with the disciples.

interesting suggestion.

Where do you find such a thing?

Let’s take a look at Jesus coming in Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Now all this will start after the great tribulation. Let' go into Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Notice at this point the Father is not coming down until after the Second resurrection or white throng Judgement.

The say in Revelation 21: 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If God is coming down out of Heaven and Jesus been on earth for a thousand yrs with his Saints, then this is the Father. Didn't we read in Isaiah child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Let's skip down to verse 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Now didn't Paul say in 1 Corthinans 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. This is the Father Kingdom. Let's continue reading Verse 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

So this is Jesus who will deliver up the kingdom to the Father.

The great white throne judgment is in Rev 20 after the 1000 year and comes after the 2nd resurrection. But "all judgement has been given over to the Son" according to Christ.

According to Rev 20 - no one in the 2nd resurrection is called "blessed and holy" that only is the case for what Rev 20 calls the "first resurrection" which is the one that we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18

====================

The New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21 is after the 1000 years and has all the saints gathering "from Sabbath to Sabbath" to worship God -- as we see in Is 66:23.

 

[BobRyan]

If God is coming down out of Heaven and Jesus been on earth for a thousand yrs with his Saints, then this is the Father.

But if instead - Jesus resurrects the saints (the first resurrection - the blessed and holy ones) and then raptures all the saints to heaven at His appearing - followed by the 1000 years as Rev 20 says -- then the one coming at the end of the 1000 years is not only Christ but also the Father.

Jer 4 and Jer 25 predict a "desolate Earth" during the 1000 years - no humans left alive on Earth.

Didn't we read in Isaiah child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

There are two possible futures for Israel in Isaiah's day -- one where they do accept the Messiah and one where they fail.

You are referencing the conditions on Earth if Israel succeeded but the appearing of Christ for the saints has not happened yet.

Let's skip down to verse 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Indeed -- Rev 21 - after the lake of fire event in Rev 20 has ended and the New Earth is formatted for life here.

Now didn't Paul say in 1 Corthinans 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That is a reference to fallen nature not inheriting eternal life.

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

2 Cor 5:For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Three states
1. In this decaying tent - earthly body
2. unclothed
3. Clothed with new body - heavenly body

This is the Father Kingdom. Let's continue reading Verse 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

So this is Jesus who will deliver up the kingdom to the Father.

Agreed - but Jesus is ruler of it as Dan 7 points out.

Dan 7:

26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion (little horn dominion - antichrist) will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

The Son of Man Presented​

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

which is what we have in Rev 21.

Which is where Is 66:23 NEW EARTH comes in "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

 

[Bro.T]

But if instead - Jesus resurrects the saints (the first resurrection - the blessed and holy ones) and then raptures all the saints to heaven at His appearing - followed by the 1000 years as Rev 20 says -- then the one coming at the end of the 1000 years is not only Christ but also the Father.

Jer 4 and Jer 25 predict a "desolate Earth" during the 1000 years - no humans left alive on Earth.

Hey BobRyan..... I'm going to go to the old and new testimony and discuss the second coming of Jesus. We going to see that all of this destruction that Jesus is coming to put on the Earth with all his Saint. All this is happening on the Earth and will stay on the Earth, and the Lord (Jesus) will make the Earth new. All of this is going to happen before the father comes down which he is still in heaven. Now before we get into talking about Jesus coming down let's addressed your comment that you said," no humans never live on earth". Let's go into Matthew 24: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. So we see here that we are in the great tribulation. And the books say except those days should be shorten their should no flesh be save. Now I post in the last commet Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So I hope these two versus convince you that there are people that no man good number of all flesh is gonna be in a great tribulation and after the great tribulation. These are not the Saints, just to be clear.

But let's take a look at starting with the first prophet who reveal the second coming of Jesus in Daniel 7: 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. This is Jesus brothers and Sisters, written in the old testament. So much have been written about Jesus in the old testament, that I understand why Peter says, We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: (2 Peter 1:19)

Now lets go in the new Testament and pick up Daniel prophecy in Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Seeing the son of man in the clouds is a different feeling for those who have been keeping his commandments and statues, and Judgements. But there are those that have been waiting for this time to come.

Now lets take a closer look at people seeing the son of man at this time. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1: 7) Always like to say this is a up side down feeling, cause people suppose to be happy to see the Lord, but not in this case.

Lets go to the prophets who wrote about this first in Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddo.

Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until this time, the Second Coming of the Lord. We are at the end of day’s brothers and sisters and it would behoove us to take heed to Jesus warning and let not man deceive us. Let’s take a look at somethings that may become some of us in the time of great tribulation. We in these last days Brothers and Sisters, and Jesus says in Revelation 2: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Now remember that Jesus said in Matthew 24: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now lets continue from Matthew 24 when Jesus talks about the stars, and moon, etc. Lets go into Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

See this is the time when all those movies that came out talking about the aliens coming, because if you still on earth you will be able to see God and the lamb sitting on the throne, before Jesus descend.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? When a person ask for the rocks to fall on them they know they report card is not good at all. But maybe some of them could of ask for mercy, or repented, like that thief on the cross.

I'm gonna stop right here before I bring Jesus down on earth because I want to see if you understand how I'm walking the Scriptures and versus from old to new testimony in order. I wanna make sure we're on the same page before I go further. Because there is a lot more.

There are two possible futures for Israel in Isaiah's day -- one where they do accept the Messiah and one where they fail.

You are referencing the conditions on Earth if Israel succeeded but the appearing of Christ for the saints has not happened yet.

Indeed -- Rev 21 - after the lake of fire event in Rev 20 has ended and the New Earth is formatted for life here.

That is a reference to fallen nature not inheriting eternal life.

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

2 Cor 5:For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Three states
1. In this decaying tent - earthly body
2. unclothed
3. Clothed with new body - heavenly body

Agreed - but Jesus is ruler of it as Dan 7 points out.

Dan 7:

26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion (little horn dominion - antichrist) will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

The Son of Man Presented​

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

which is what we have in Rev 21.

Which is where Is 66:23 NEW EARTH comes in "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:


But if instead - Jesus resurrects the saints (the first resurrection - the blessed and holy ones) and then raptures all the saints to heaven at His appearing - followed by the 1000 years as Rev 20 says -- then the one coming at the end of the 1000 years is not only Christ but also the Father.

During the 1000 years of Rev 20

Jer 4 and Jer 25 predict a "desolate Earth" during the 1000 years - no humans left alive on Earth.

Jer 4:
23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


No one left alive to bury the dead - from one end of earth to the other - corpses

Jer 25:

30 “Therefore you shall prophesy against them all these words, and you shall say to them,

‘The Lord will roar from on high
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 ‘A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with all flesh;
As for the wicked, He has given them to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”

33 “Those slain by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Now before we get into talking about Jesus coming down let's addressed your comment that you said," no humans never live on earth". Let's go into Matthew 24: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That is a tribulation that is before the rapture event of Matt 24:29-31 where saints are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other" at Christ's appearing.

So we see here that we are in the great tribulation. And the books say except those days should be shorten their should no flesh be save.

These are times of tribulation - but the great tribulation is coming.

Now I post in the last commet Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

true - and the rapture all of those are taken to heaven.

So I hope these two versus convince you that there are people that no man good number of all flesh is gonna be in a great tribulation and after the great tribulation

indeed great tribulation has happened in the past and more is coming.

Matt 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

. These are not the Saints, just to be clear.

They are the saints.

But let's take a look at starting with the first prophet who reveal the second coming of Jesus in Daniel 7: 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Indeed - saints take position of the kingdom -- after the judgment in Dan 7 concludes in favor of the saints.

Dan 7:

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

25 He (antichrist) will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. (1260 day-for-years) 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Notice that according to Dan 7 the saints are persecuted all during the time that the judgment is going on. Only once it concludes - is the kingdom turned over to the saints.​

Now lets go in the new Testament and pick up Daniel prophecy in Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Indeed - the rapture takes place after the tribulation - it takes place when all mankind sees Christ coming in power and glory

Now lets take a closer look at people seeing the son of man at this time. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1: 7)

True - that is the same rapture event seen in Matt 24:30-31
2 Thess 2:1-4 describes the rapture "and our gathering together to Him"
So also 2 Thess 1:5-8 reminding us that all the lost are slain at that rapture event.

This is just what we see in Rev 14:14-16 -- rapture
Then Rev 14:17-20 -- destruction of all the lost

 

[Bro.T]

BobRyan said:


But if instead - Jesus resurrects the saints (the first resurrection - the blessed and holy ones) and then raptures all the saints to heaven at His appearing - followed by the 1000 years as Rev 20 says -- then the one coming at the end of the 1000 years is not only Christ but also the Father.

We have to take this slow, because it's to much to respond to when you post back. Right here, there is no rapture, only the first resurrection and after a 1000yrs the second resurrection. Revelation 20. Let’s go and take a look at the company (Saints) the Lord will have with at his second coming. This is after the great tribulation. Let’s go into 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

If you sleep in Jesus it means you have done his will.

Lets keep reading and see how Jesus bring the saints with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This verse just told us that some will be alive to be in this first resurrection, the coming of Jesus, and there are those who will be asleep. Notice they asleep and not in heaven chilling and watching over people, smiling at all this hell going on.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Notice: Only the dead in Christ will rise first, but the Lord has descended...meaning coming down

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Notice those that were asleep or dead rise first, then those which are alive and remain rise next, to meet the Lord in the air, and altogether we come up in the first resurrection.

Paul also said in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. So let's see where Paul got this from.

Let's go into Zechariah 14: 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

No one is leaving the earth after this point. This is after the great tribulation. This is the big war Armageddon.

Jer 4 and Jer 25 predict a "desolate Earth" during the 1000 years - no humans left alive on Earth.

This is during the great tribulation, I show you what Jesus said at this time in Matthew 24. There only one time that's going to be this terrible on earth. I showed you where there's a multitude of nations of people that no man can number doing the great tribulation. This when Jesus is going to rain on earth for 1000 yrs. I'm trying to show you all this in order so you don't get confuse.

 

[FredVB]

I see in Exodus 31:13-15 that Sabbath is for all generations, and that Sabbath is holy. This declaration is not conditional on what any are doing.

Most certainly you shall keep my Sabbaths; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Yahweh.

Sabbath is holy to you. Sabbath is holy to Yahweh. Jesus spoke of Sabbath saying man was not made for Sabbath, but Sabbath is made for man. It is the day of rest for all, humans and their animals. God wanted a day of rest for all, on the same day of the week together.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I see in Exodus 31:13-15 that Sabbath is for all generations, and that Sabbath is holy. This declaration is not conditional on what any are doing.

Most certainly you shall keep my Sabbaths; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Yahweh.

Sabbath is holy to you. Sabbath is holy to Yahweh. Jesus spoke of Sabbath saying man was not made for Sabbath, but Sabbath is made for man. It is the day of rest for all, humans and their animals. God wanted a day of rest for all, on the same day of the week together.

I think you put your finger on the problem, from my perspective. It is not so much the fact that the Sabbath is holy, but what people do (or don't do) on the Sabbath. Some folks have made a shibboleth of the Sabbath, insisting that engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities are required. However, the Sabbath was designated specifically as a day of rest and not of activity.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think you put your finger on the problem, from my perspective. It is not so much the fact that the Sabbath is holy, but what people do (or don't do) on the Sabbath. Some folks have made a shibboleth of the Sabbath, insisting that engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities are required. However, the Sabbath was designated specifically as a day of rest and not of activity.

God said the Sabbath is a holy convocation (gathering) Lev 23:3

God said to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 and we are to rest from our work on the seventh day, so we can do so. Exo 20:9-10

God said the Sabbath is about putting away secular activities so we can solely focus on Him Isa 58:13

God says the Sabbath continues to be a holy convocation for the saints in the New Heaven and New Earth Isa 66:22-23 why we saw it in the life of Jesus and the apostles Luke 4:16 Acts 15:21 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 etc.

This issue is when we use our perspective instead of following what God said.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God said the Sabbath was a holy convocation (gathering) Lev 23:3

God said to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 and we are to rest from our work on the seventh day, so we can do so. Exo 20:9-10

God said the Sabbath is about putting away secular activities so we can solely focus on Him Isa 58:13

God says the Sabbath continues to be a holy convocation for the saints in the New Heaven and New Earth Isa 66:22-23 why we saw it in the life of Jesus and the apostles Luke 4:16 Acts 15:21 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 etc.

This issue is when we use our perspective instead of following what God said.

It is an enormous theological leap from resting one day a week to engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities one day a week.