Kathy Hochul endorses Zohran Mamdani’s bid for mayor

[Belk]

I can't speak for the other poster, but I assume by "questioning", they were referring to the accusatory tone type of "questioning" and not mere inquiry.

In a sense that, when police shootings occur, it's often a case where everyone assumes the worst possible motive, and starts disseminating skewed versions of the story.

The Michael Brown Ferguson story of 2014 would be a good example of that. It started a whole wave of "hands up don't shoot" protests and people demanding the officer be fired and insisting that it was a case what warranted a bigger national conversation about "re-thinking how we do law enforcement"

The only problem with that whole thing:

On March 4, 2015, the Department of Justice, headed by President Obama appointment Eric Holder, released their report of the investigation into the events. President Obama said of the investigation that he had "complete confidence and [stands] fully behind the Justice Department...” This report found that physical and forensic evidence contradicted witnesses who claimed that Brown had his hands up when Wilson shot him. It also stated that witnesses whose testimony aligned with the physical and forensic evidence never "perceived Brown to be attempting to surrender at any point when Wilson fired upon him." The report concluded there was no justification for a prosecution of Officer Wilson.

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/17/393646640/hands-up-dont-shoot-movement-built-on-false-rumors-columnist-says

Perhaps. And that is a nuanced stance I can support. But that was not how the post in question came across to me.

 

[Valletta]

Right? Can you imagine a world were people started freaking out and asking questions simply because someone got shot.

View attachment 370121

There's nothing wrong with asking questions. But assuming there is wrongdoing or looking hard for wrongdoing from the beginning is bad for everyone, especially in cases where the person being arrested refuses to follow orders.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Of course not.
The point is, it's a more efficient use of finite resources to divert police to situations that require their intervention than sending the jack-of-trades to address a mental health issue.

But if you're already running on a "manpower shortage" situation, it's actually not more useful.


To use a non-police example:

Pretend I were running an auto-repair shop...

Under "perfect conditions" (where money is no object), I'd like to be able have 10 mechanics in the shop and 3 customer service people answering phones. -- I'd also like a beach vacation with 5 swimsuit models, that's not gonna happen either.

I'm currently short-staffed, I only have 6 mechanics and 1 customer service person.

With my budget, I can hire 2 more people.



I would hire two mechanics, and then have them take turns answering the phone. Because push comes to shove, while they won't be as polished and likely not as polite at dealing with a customer, they can still answer the phone and do still know some things about the pricing and can answer some of the questions better than the average lay person.

Whereas, if I hire 2 customer service people, they'll be better at that, but it's all they can do.

I can say "Mechanic Joe, on Monday, keep an ear out for the phone and enter appointments in the system while you're working, but then Tue-Fri, you're back in the shop full-time working on that Nissan that needs an alternator replaced"

As where, I can't say "Customer Service Steve, you'll be doing your regular job Mon-Thu, but Friday afternoon I need you to go take a look at that head gasket on that F150 that came in"

 

[Belk]

There's nothing wrong with asking questions. But assuming there is wrongdoing or looking hard for wrongdoing from the beginning is bad for everyone, especially in cases where the person being arrested refuses to follow orders.

Looking for wrongdoing from the beginning is bad for everyone? That is how the police operate in every investigation. If it is bad then we need to start rethinking police tactics.

What needs to stop is the demonization of police and the assumption of ill intent. What also needs to stop is the blocking of consequences for police who DO so bad behavior and a lack of control.

 

[Pommer]

Police need to be able to do their jobs and not be constantly questioned every time a black is shot, instead they need to be given respect for doing a tough job. With soft prosecutors and no bail police are discouraged. Families need fathers. The music glorifying the shooting of police is a problem, that whole culture. Black kids should not be taught they are the victims of systemic racism and that their crimes are a result of that. Responsibility and accountability are critical. The children are being abandoned at a young age, they need to be provided a good disciplined education and tough penalties for misbehavior early on.

I would like it if all police shootings are questioned.
Thanks.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

In 2020, a total of 14,902 LAPD employees (both sworn officers and civilian staff) made a total of $1.71 billion. Four years later, the department shrank to 12,617 employees but cost the city $1.73 billion – an increase due at least in part to the boost in costly overtime pay to cover for the shortage of sworn officers.

It could also be explained by a 5% annual raise. Generous, but not unreasonable.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It could also be explained by a 5% annual raise. Generous, but not unreasonable.

California: After Cutting Police, Overtime Costs Strain LA's Budget

With donuts now over $20 a dozen and a cup of coffee topping $3, working a shift for the Los Angeles Police Department isn’t what it once was. But with overtime pay at 1.5 times the regular hour

www.realclearinvestigations.com

In this particular instance though, it wasn't raises that drove it up, it was OT due to the fact that they scaled back their force by 2,200 officers (which was about 14% staffing reduction of uniformed officers)

Rand’s case isn’t unique. In 2024, the department spent an all-time high of $265.5 million on overtime alone

Making matters worse for the department, the City Council’s May 2025 vote in favor of additional LAPD cuts will leave the agency with just 8,400 cops, the lowest number since 1995.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What needs to stop is the demonization of police and the assumption of ill intent. What also needs to stop is the blocking of consequences for police who DO so bad behavior and a lack of control.

The proposal I've heard floated in the past that I think it worth considering is that when wrongful death or misconduct convictions happen, the settlement payouts come out of their pension funds and departmental budgets, instead of the city's or state's "general fund".

Although, to be fair, I've heard arguments for and against that, that have both had merit.

Argument A) "It's a good idea, because if police know it's their own bottom line that will be hurt if one of their co-workers abuses their power, there will be more of an internal effort to drum out the loose cannons"

Argument B) "It's a bad idea, because if they know it's their money on the line, they'll fight even harder to maintain the "blue code" and try to cover for their co-workers even more"

 

[iluvatar5150]

But resources are finite.

I touched on this in another thread a while back about these intervention programs (LA's implementation was the topic of discussion in that thread)

The dynamic would be the old "Jacks of all trades" vs. "Masters of one"

In 2020, a total of 14,902 LAPD employees (both sworn officers and civilian staff) made a total of $1.71 billion. Four years later, the department shrank to 12,617 employees but cost the city $1.73 billion – an increase due at least in part to the boost in costly overtime pay to cover for the shortage of sworn officers.

But despite the thinner ranks and thicker payroll, local policymakers have opted for further cuts to the department’s manpower, which could drive up overtime pay even more.


Of the ~15,000 LAPD officers that were on the payroll in 2020, about 1200 of them had undergone an intermediate level 6-month training (MHIT) on dealing with mental health issues and domestic dispute de-escalation.

Are they as a good at it as a mental health professional who specializes in it? Obviously not.

But when there's already staffing shortages and a variety of issues (both violent and non-violent), replacing a portion of "Jacks of all trades" with "Masters of one" creates some logistical challenges.

Basically you're taking a person who:
Is "okay/slightly above average" at being able to respond to a domestic dispute -- but can also respond to a car theft, bank robbery, or a stabbing in a park
And replacing them with a person who:
Is absolutely amazing at handling the domestic disputes -- but can't offer much help on those other things

It's a not a reciprocal backup situation.

Your argument really only holds water if they've hired more counselors than they need. As long as they don't over hire, then any number of counselors are going to be a more efficient use of resources than hiring jack-of-all-trade cops.

 

[Belk]

The proposal I've heard floated in the past that I think it worth considering is that when wrongful death or misconduct convictions happen, the settlement payouts come out of their pension funds and departmental budgets, instead of the city's or state's "general fund".

Although, to be fair, I've heard arguments for and against that, that have both had merit.

Argument A) "It's a good idea, because if police know it's their own bottom line that will be hurt if one of their co-workers abuses their power, there will be more of an internal effort to drum out the loose cannons"

Argument B) "It's a bad idea, because if they know it's their money on the line, they'll fight even harder to maintain the "blue code" and try to cover for their co-workers even more"

Yes, I have had that argument before. If it was a case of only the problem officers being punished I would be for it. Punishing a group for bad behavior only results in closing ranks (this is literally a tactic the military uses to create group cohesion). Decimation died out with the Roman legions and it is good it is gone. Not to mention that in most pension plans the city / state are then on the hook to make up the shortfall so it just ends up affecting the tax payers again.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

California: After Cutting Police, Overtime Costs Strain LA's Budget

With donuts now over $20 a dozen and a cup of coffee topping $3, working a shift for the Los Angeles Police Department isn’t what it once was. But with overtime pay at 1.5 times the regular hour

www.realclearinvestigations.com

In this particular instance though, it wasn't raises that drove it up, it was OT due to the fact that they scaled back their force by 2,200 officers (which was about 14% staffing reduction of uniformed officers)

See, this is why it's a good idea to link your sources initially, rather than selectively quoting without attribution.

Seems like it was both. The overtime increase was $100 million since 2019, per your article. Considering the decrease in officers, that means there were still significant raises during that period (which you should expect there to be) in order to make up the differential. Also consider that as salary increases, the cost of overtime increases, since overtime pays out at 1.5-2x (or more, depending on circumstances, sometimes) of the hourly rate. So the monetary cost of overtime isn't the best metric to measure it by. The article does not state how many hours of overtime were worked (relative to 2020), so it's hard to say for certain how significant the impact of reduced staffing on the actual amount of overtime worked was.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Your argument really only holds water if they've hired more counselors than they need. As long as they don't over hire, then any number of counselors are going to be a more efficient use of resources than hiring jack-of-all-trade cops.

I would disagree, I think it holds water if there's a shortage in the role that has the greatest breadth of scope.

Perhaps my mechanic shop example from before wasn't the best example, but perhaps this one's better.


Pretend you're school principal:
There's gaps that need filled in both your math and history departments... you can only hire one person

Greg has a PhD in history, but zero math credentials
Nancy has a Master's in math, but she did minor in history


It seems like Nancy would be the better choice, correct?

While going with Greg wouldn't be "over-hiring" (since they do have history classes in need of an instructor), and while Nancy isn't going to be quite as good as Greg on the History front, it still seems like Nancy would be the more prudent choice in that scenario all things considered, yes?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

See, this is why it's a good idea to link your sources initially, rather than selectively quoting without attribution.

Seems like it was both. The overtime increase was $100 million since 2019, per your article. Considering the decrease in officers, that means there were still significant raises during that period (which you should expect there to be) in order to make up the differential. Also consider that as salary increases, the cost of overtime increases, since overtime pays out at 1.5-2x (or more, depending on circumstances, sometimes) of the hourly rate. So the monetary cost of overtime isn't the best metric to measure it by. The article does not state how many hours of overtime were worked (relative to 2020), so it's hard to say for certain how significant the impact of reduced staffing on the actual amount of overtime worked was.

Based on what I've heard about police salaries, they're not terribly glamourous in most cases...

Before last year, no LAPD officer had ever earned more than $235,000 in yearly overtime pay. In 2024, seven officers did, including Detective Nathan Kouri, whose combined compensation of $603,887 made him the highest-paid cop in the City of Angels, according to a report by OpentheBooks.com. All told, nearly three dozen LAPD officers made at least $400,000 in overall pay for the year.


...and if we expanded that to ones making over $250k/year in overall pay (meaning salary + OT), I imagine that number would jump up to way more than 3 dozen.

Those guys had to be working a crazy amount of hours to clear clear those sorts of numbers for the year.


From what I'm reading, the average salary of an LAPD officer is in the ballpark of 70-80k.

I used AI for this part:

To answer how many overtime (OT) hours at 1.5x pay are needed to clear $300,000 for the year with a base pay of $40/hour
...snipped all of the illustrated math...
You’d need about 3,614 overtime hours per year (≈70 OT hours per week) on top of a full-time schedule to reach $300,000 at $40/hour base pay.


Even if we go with perhaps some of the more seasoned LADP officers who were making a little more (like $60/hour)...

At $60/hour base pay, you’d need about 1,947 OT hours per year (≈37 OT hours each week on top of full-time) to clear $300,000.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I would disagree, I think it holds water if there's a shortage in the role that has the greatest breadth of scope.

Perhaps my mechanic shop example from before wasn't the best example, but perhaps this one's better.


Pretend you're school principal:
There's gaps that need filled in both your math and history departments... you can only hire one person

Greg has a PhD in history, but zero math credentials
Nancy has a Master's in math, but she did minor in history


It seems like Nancy would be the better choice, correct?

While going with Greg wouldn't be "over-hiring" (since they do have history classes in need of an instructor), and while Nancy isn't going to be quite as good as Greg on the History front, it still seems like Nancy would be the more prudent choice in that scenario all things considered, yes?

Why do you keep coming up with these ridiculous scenarios? Even my tiny HS with *a* science teacher wouldn't have done something that silly in hiring. Now if it were a college, the correct answer is:

Hire 1 history adjunct and 1 math adjunct and 40% of the regular Asst. Prof. salary and save money overall.

Now do you want to get back to discussing the police budget of LA? Policing staffing? or The Hochul endorsement of Mamdani?

 

[iluvatar5150]

I would disagree, I think it holds water if there's a shortage in the role that has the greatest breadth of scope.

Perhaps my mechanic shop example from before wasn't the best example, but perhaps this one's better.


Pretend you're school principal:
There's gaps that need filled in both your math and history departments... you can only hire one person

Greg has a PhD in history, but zero math credentials
Nancy has a Master's in math, but she did minor in history


It seems like Nancy would be the better choice, correct?

While going with Greg wouldn't be "over-hiring" (since they do have history classes in need of an instructor), and while Nancy isn't going to be quite as good as Greg on the History front, it still seems like Nancy would be the more prudent choice in that scenario all things considered, yes?

No, because in your scenario, the existing “cops” are better at math, and hiring Greg to cover history frees up the existing cops to focus more on math.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Based on what I've heard about police salaries, they're not terribly glamourous in most cases...

Before last year, no LAPD officer had ever earned more than $235,000 in yearly overtime pay. In 2024, seven officers did, including Detective Nathan Kouri, whose combined compensation of $603,887 made him the highest-paid cop in the City of Angels, according to a report by OpentheBooks.com. All told, nearly three dozen LAPD officers made at least $400,000 in overall pay for the year.


...and if we expanded that to ones making over $250k/year in overall pay (meaning salary + OT), I imagine that number would jump up to way more than 3 dozen.

Those guys had to be working a crazy amount of hours to clear clear those sorts of numbers for the year.

On an individual basis, sure, but again, we're not getting a complete picture.

From what I'm reading, the average salary of an LAPD officer is in the ballpark of 70-80k.

I used AI for this part:

To answer how many overtime (OT) hours at 1.5x pay are needed to clear $300,000 for the year with a base pay of $40/hour
...snipped all of the illustrated math...
You’d need about 3,614 overtime hours per year (≈70 OT hours per week) on top of a full-time schedule to reach $300,000 at $40/hour base pay.


Even if we go with perhaps some of the more seasoned LADP officers who were making a little more (like $60/hour)...

At $60/hour base pay, you’d need about 1,947 OT hours per year (≈37 OT hours each week on top of full-time) to clear $300,000.

I think your numbers are a little on the low side:

Detectives seem to be more like $150k+

Salary and Benefits

Explore LAPD Salary and Benefits – Invest in a Career That Invests in You.

www.joinlapd.com

The people racking up huge amounts of overtime pay (in terms of dollars) are almost certainly detectives, senior officers, supervisors, and other higher-paying positions. And policing in general has a reputation for over-work and officers being "married" to the job. I also wouldn't assume that all overtime is paid out at time-and-a-half. I don't know what LAPD's contract states, but some industries will do significantly higher multiples for major holidays, especially undesirable time slots, or overtime worked past a certain threshold.

To be clear, I'm not saying that there isn't a problem here. I'm just pointing out that you're offering conclusions about the situation that aren't fully supported by the data you've presented. This started with your claim that the increase in payroll despite the decrease in the number of officers demonstrated that officers were working much more overtime, but there's not enough data in your post to support that conclusion. Of course, that was because you'd left out the part of the article that clearly stated the difference in the overtime payroll specifically (and hadn't linked the article either) - something that does lend some credence to your theory, but still doesn't confirm it. In order to accurately analyze the actual workload (instead of focusing on the dollars) we would need:

1. Total overtime hours worked for 2020 and 2024

2. Number of officers who worked those overtime hours for 2020 and 2024

3. Ideally, also the number of overtime hours that individual officers worked, again for 2020 and 2024

The goals are to determine whether there's a significant increase in actual overtime hours worked and how the number of overtime hours per officer has changed since 2020. It could be that the number overtime hours per officer is consistent over time, and that pay increases account for most, if not all of the difference (which I'll admit is unlikely, but it definitely is a significant chunk). It could also be that a few officers are racking up massive amounts of overtime, in which case, that should probably be looked into to check to make sure that they're not defrauding the department, and that - if they are actually working significantly more hours than their peers - they aren't experiencing undue stress.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Now do you want to get back to discussing the police budget of LA? Policing staffing? or The Hochul endorsement of Mamdani?

All of these above...although I'm pretty sure I've touched on all of them.

Mamdani is a member of an org (the DSA) that praises Chavez and Marx -- check
LA's attempt at the approach Mamdani wants to for public safety had some negative consequences -- check

As far as Hochul endorsing him, I can only assume that it's a "this will will make me popular with the kids" move.

Why do you keep coming up with these ridiculous scenarios?

Because I'm trying to think of something that parallels with how foolish the idea is of scaling back an already understaffed police force, in the name of hiring more mental health professionals just because it's panders to some sort of "new age narrative"

If the police force was already fully staffed in NYC and the community didn't have any outstanding crime/safety concerns, and they had an extra 60 million sitting around the budget. By all means, hire 500 qualified mental health professionals and try it out and run systems in parallel.

However, the reality of the situation is this:

Police union officials say NYPD in a staffing crisis

nycpba.org

And Mamdani is saying his $1 Billion dollar initiative doesn't include hiring any more officers...

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The goals are to determine whether there's a significant increase in actual overtime hours worked and how the number of overtime hours per officer has changed since 2020. It could be that the number overtime hours per officer is consistent over time, and that pay increases account for most, if not all of the difference (which I'll admit is unlikely, but it definitely is a significant chunk). It could also be that a few officers are racking up massive amounts of overtime, in which case, that should probably be looked into to check to make sure that they're not defrauding the department, and that - if they are actually working significantly more hours than their peers - they aren't experiencing undue stress.

While not a perfect benchmark...

LAPD spent $40 million during protests, coronavirus; officer overtime pay is curtailed

LAPD spent more than $40 million in policing George Floyd protests as well as dealing with fallout from the coronavirus, running out of overtime money.

www.latimes.com

They spent $40 million in overtime handling the mass protests of 2020. (which we can all agree with a very "active" time for police officers in terms of workload in major cities)

Another confounding factor is that evidently LAPD allows their officers to bank their OT for "cash-in" at a later date. (which makes yearly auditing a challenge to say the least.

However, there is some data to suggest that isn't just a select few officers working a ton of OT to throw off the averages.

More LAPD officers receive big bump in pay

The number of LAPD officers making more than $150,000 has more than tripled since 2016.

xtown.la

 

[Hans Blaster]

All of these above...although I'm pretty sure I've touched on all of them.

Mamdani is a member of an org (the DSA) that praises Chavez and Marx -- check
LA's attempt at the approach Mamdani wants to for public safety had some negative consequences -- check

All of this handwringing about membership in a diverse group. Look at his policies and judge those.

As far as Hochul endorsing him, I can only assume that it's a "this will will make me popular with the kids" move.

Like that (Hochul popular with the kids) would happen. That was a good one.

Because I'm trying to think of something that parallels with how foolish the idea is of scaling back an already understaffed police force, in the name of hiring more mental health professionals just because it's panders to some sort of "new age narrative"

Like a lot of police forces, NYPD can make large number of officers show up at a moments notice or outnumber a protest group. (For example in my smallish town, more often then not when I see the city cops have someone pulled over there are at least 2 cop cars there. Seems like there are too many cops on duty at any one time.)

If the police force was already fully staffed in NYC and the community didn't have any outstanding crime/safety concerns, and they had an extra 60 million sitting around the budget. By all means, hire 500 qualified mental health professionals and try it out and run systems in parallel.

If they are sending cops to do non-cop jobs, then those cops can be replaced by more appropriate professionals.

However, the reality of the situation is this:

Police union officials say NYPD in a staffing crisis

nycpba.org

Of course the PBA says "hire more of us". LOL

And Mamdani is saying his $1 Billion dollar initiative doesn't include hiring any more officers...

Sounds about right.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

While not a perfect benchmark...

LAPD spent $40 million during protests, coronavirus; officer overtime pay is curtailed

LAPD spent more than $40 million in policing George Floyd protests as well as dealing with fallout from the coronavirus, running out of overtime money.

www.latimes.com

They spent $40 million in overtime handling the mass protests of 2020. (which we can all agree with a very "active" time for police officers in terms of workload in major cities)

Another confounding factor is that evidently LAPD allows their officers to bank their OT for "cash-in" at a later date. (which makes yearly auditing a challenge to say the least.

That really doesn't address any of the points I raised. Again, you're trying to make pretty sweeping claims based on very limited information.

However, there is some data to suggest that isn't just a select few officers working a ton of OT to throw off the averages.

More LAPD officers receive big bump in pay

The number of LAPD officers making more than $150,000 has more than tripled since 2016.

xtown.la

"The number of officers making more than $150k has tripled since 2016". Gee, go figure - it's been 10 years, and LAPD's base pay is nearly $100k now.

And this article highlights the fact that LAPD is having difficulties meeting its hiring goals - so the problem isn't that they're cutting the force, but rather that they can't convince people to take the job. In other words, they're not replacing "jacks of all trades" with "masters of one" - they're hiring "masters of one" because that's potentially easier than convincing people to be cops, and it allows them to reduce the load on the "jacks of all trades".