No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Fervent]

Which is what??? What do you think sovereign means if it doesn’t mean He is in charge?

Being "in charge" is a world away from meticulously controlling every detail.

 

[A New Dawn]

Being "in charge" is a world away from meticulously controlling every detail.

Nobody said He meticulously controls every detail. You are free to make lots of decisions for yourself EXCEPT on the matter of salvation. He COULD meticulously control everything but He doesn’t.

 

[Fervent]

Nobody said He meticulously controls every detail. You are free to make lots of decisions for yourself EXCEPT on the matter of salvation. He COULD meticulously control everything but He doesn’t.

So he actively prevents people from coming to Christ, but doesn't prevent atrocities?

 

[A New Dawn]

@A New Dawn



Yes in that context of Rom 11 Mercy is equivalent to salvation, its actually regeneration as in Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thats when an elect person in unbelief will be able to believe through the saving mercy of the Holy Ghost.

Mercy isn't equivalent to salvation. Mercy and grace are the ways God treats us. Mercy just means that God chose not to punish you for your sins when he graciously turned our hearts to Himself and saved you. There are lots of ways mercy is shown to the just and the unjust. For example the way Jesus responded to and treated the woman caught in adultery at the well was merciful, or how the father in the parable of the prodigal son forgave his son was merciful.

 

[A New Dawn]

So he actively prevents people from coming to Christ, but doesn't prevent atrocities?

You do know that the state of the world we live in is man’s fault, right? The only way he can prevent atrocities would have been to take away any choices from Adam and THEN he/us would really be puppets.

 

[Fervent]

You do know that the state of the world we live in is man’s fault, right?

Is it not exactly as God decreed it to be? Did man overpower Him somehow and ruin the world?

The only way he can prevent atrocities would have been to take away any choices from Adam and THEN he/us would really be puppets.

I see you dodged my basic question.

 

[A New Dawn]

Is it not exactly as God decreed it to be? Did man overpower Him somehow and ruin the world?

I see you dodged my basic question.

You complain when God doesn’t give us a choice and then you complain when He does. Which is it? Was God right to give us a choice or was He wrong?

 

[Fervent]

You complain when God doesn’t give us a choice and then you complain when He does. Which is it? Was God right to give us a choice or was He wrong?

You're deflecting. Didn't anyone teach you it's bad form to answer a question with a question?

 

[A New Dawn]

You're deflecting. Didn't anyone teach you it's bad form to answer a question with a question?

I’m pointing out the flaw in your argument. I will do that however I please.

 

[Fervent]

I’m pointing out the flaw in your argument. I will do that however I please.

What flaw is that supposed to be? You're the one who is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[A New Dawn]

What flaw is that supposed to be? You're the one who is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

No, you are the one complaining about not having a choice, oh, until it is pointed out what Adam did with his choice, and then you want God to veto Adam’s choice and make everyone puppets, so we are back to the beginning of the circle.

 

[Fervent]

No, you are the one complaining about not having a choice, oh, until it is pointed out what Adam did with his choice, and then you want God to veto Adam’s choice and make everyone puppets, so we are back to the beginning of the circle.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that you want to blame human beings for doing exactly what God decreed them to do. You want to bring it to Adam, but my first question had nothing to do with Adam and your follow-up to that was to blame man for the world despite the fact that according to you that it was all decreed by God before the world's foundation. So how about you answer my original question rather than deflecting and trying to put me on the defensive?

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that you want to blame human beings for doing exactly what God decreed them to do. You want to bring it to Adam, but my first question had nothing to do with Adam and your follow-up to that was to blame man for the world despite the fact that according to you that it was all decreed by God before the world's foundation. So how about you answer my original question rather than deflecting and trying to put me on the defensive?

My Bible says:

Genesis 1:31 (NASB95) God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

So God didn’t decree them to be evil. God gave them free will. Adam chose that.

Again, I’m pointing out the problem with free will, even when we have the power to choose freely, which Adam did. WE, however, don’t have the ability to choose freely because we are fallen. We can only choose from our fallen nature and this is the result.

Can you please point out where I said anything you are attributing to me, because I didn’t say most of what you are claiming I said. As I look back through the discussion I see you are responding to different individuals, not paying attention to who’s said what, AND you are leveling malicious accusations of things we’ve said that you detest about Calvinism, that NONE of us has said.

 

[Fervent]

My Bible says:

Genesis 1:31 (NASB95) God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

So God didn’t decree them to be evil. God gave them free will. Adam chose that.

Again, I’m pointing out the problem with free will, even when we have the power to choose freely, which Adam did. WE, however, don’t have the ability to choose freely because we are fallen. We can only choose from our fallen nature and this is the result.

Can you please point out where I said anything you are attributing to me, because I didn’t say most of what you are claiming I said.

That's not answering my original question, which was in response to your claim that we can choose to do anything of our choosing EXCEPT surrender to the gospel. So I take it that God prevents us from surrendering to the gospel, since you claim we are free to do anything EXCEPT that one thing and you're blaming it on God's sovereignty. So according to you God prevents people from accepting the gospel message, but doesn't prevent atrocities like the holocaust? Or is God's sovereignty not what prevents people from surrendering of their own volition?

 

[A New Dawn]

That's not answering my original question, which was in response to your claim that we can choose to do anything of our choosing EXCEPT surrender to the gospel. So I take it that God prevents us from surrendering to the gospel, since you claim we are free to do anything EXCEPT that one thing and you're blaming it on God's sovereignty. So according to you God prevents people from accepting the gospel message, but doesn't prevent atrocities like the holocaust? Or is God's sovereignty not what prevents people from surrendering of their own volition?

Why don’t you take a breather for a while and read my last post, which I edited, and think about your aggressiveness in responding here. Then I might respond to this post.

 

[Fervent]

Why don’t you take a breather for a while and read my last post, which I edited, and think about your aggressiveness in responding here. Then I might respond to this post.

[Staff Edit]

My "aggressiveness" is because Calvinists either do not follow their system to its natural end and camp in an inconsistent position, or they dance around the fact that the system makes God the author of sin by trying to simply handwaive it away and make a mockery of moral culpability.

 

[Brightfame52]

@ A New Dawn

Mercy isn't equivalent to salvation. Mercy and grace are the ways God treats us. Mercy just means that God chose not to punish you for your sins when he graciously turned our hearts to Himself and saved you. There are lots of ways mercy is shown to the just and the unjust. For example the way Jesus responded to and treated the woman caught in adultery at the well was merciful, or how the father in the parable of the prodigal son forgave his son was merciful.

I have to disagree with you, for regeneration by the Spirit is an aspect of the elects salvation from the power of sin and its deinitly according to Gods mercy He saved us that way Tius 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[A New Dawn]

@ A New Dawn

I have to disagree with you, for regeneration by the Spirit is an aspect of the elects salvation from the power of sin and its deinitly according to Gods mercy He saved us that way Tius 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yes, salvation is according to His mercy but salvation isn’t mercy and mercy isn’t salvation. Salvation is an ACT of mercy, just like it is an ACT of grace, in other words God acts merciful and gracious in granting us salvation, but you cannot DEFINE salvation as mercy. Salvation is but one of the mercies God shows us.

Salvation is salvation.
Mercy is mercy.
Grace is grace.

 

[zoidar]

For the very first quote, from Clement of Rome, you conveniently left out that he said “ all are glorified and magnified by HIS will”. Not our own. And “but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. You conveniently left that part out. The part that he gives us the faith we are justified with.

And for Ignatius of Antioch, that is the core teaching of total depravity. THE. CORE. TEACHING. Since turning to God is a spiritual activity, then it is obvious that that is something a carnal man can’t do.

Let’s go on.

Justin Martyr was saying that prior to Christ (and his saving work in us) we were born sinners and there was no good thing in us and it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand or perform spiritual things and had no innate power to save himself or attain eternal life.

Irenaeus of Lyons you were close as far as you went, but you stopped just short of what he meant by what he was saying. And it was the same as Paul said in Romans , and as Justin Martyr said. That because of man’s fallen nature, they cannot choose spiritual things.

Lactantius said we were blind, in darkness, on prison, and ignorant of God and truth, and God enlightened us, adopted us and delivered us from evil bonds and gave us wisdom. He is saying God took them while they were still in the throes of sin and regenerated them.

Athanasius said that because the devil wrought sin from the beginning, it is impossible for us to restore ourselves to liberty. And without God it is impossible for us to be one with Him.

What I’m NOT seeing is any one of them saying that it is a mutual decision or that God is only helping us along the road to salvation. ALL of them are say that man’s depravity prevents them from, not just needing help along the way, but that we don’t even know God or anything good because our hearts are too deceitful.

We don’t need for you to put your own spin on something we can clearly read for ourselves.

Justin Martyr
“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.).
“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.)

The keypharse here is "save himself". I think that is what Justin is saying, on our own, by our natural ability it is impossible to be saved, but with the aid of the Holy Spirit we can respond. Justin contrasts "our nature" with "the savior", not "our nature" with "regeneration". So the point is clear, apart from Christ, mankind cannot be saved. So I see no total depravity here. It goes well with what Justin writes in other places.

So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputes not sin;' that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them.

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 125-142 (Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

 

[Brightfame52]

@ A New Dawn

Yes, salvation is according to His mercy but salvation isn’t mercy and mercy isn’t salvation.

I think you trading apples for oranges with this statement, and not able to see the truth setting before your eyes. Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Barnes writes:

But according to his mercy -

(1) It had its origin in mercy;

(2) It is by mere mercy or compassion, and not by justice;

(3) It is an expression of great mercy, and,

(4) It is now in fact conferred only by mercy.

Whatever we have done or can do, when we come to receive salvation from the hand of God, there is no other element which enters into it but mercy. It is not because our deeds deserve it; it is not because we have by repentance and faith wrought ourselves into such a state of mind that we can claim it; but, after all our tears, and sighs, and prayers, and good deeds, it is a mere favor. Even then God might justly withhold it if he chose, and no blame would be attached to him if he should suffer us to sink down to ruin.

He saved us - That is, he began that salvation in us which is to be completed in heaven. A man who is already renewed and pardoned may be spoken of as saved - for: