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6,000 Years?

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Amo2

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I'm glad to see people interpreting scripture differently doesn't bother you. I feel the same.

I have to wonder about what you said about evolutionary biology though and how you referred to it as a "fairy tale". Is that because of how it conflicts with your reading of scripture, or do you actually believe you can disprove the theory of evolution? If it's the second that's a really big boast and could be read as you implying that you know biology better than professional biologists. Hopefully that's not the case though.

Why would I need to disprove a theory which has never been proven? It is not and has not ever been observed. Then there is the subject of exactly what you mean by evolution, as there are different views regarding it. Change happens. Species can and do adapt to differing environments. This is observed. Whether this is a built in product of design, or the result of deep time slow or sporadic rapid evolutions from simple to complex, cannot be observed. We were not there. Nor do we observe any such events within recorded histories.

I find the idea that the incomprehensible level of complexity we see among living things and even their environment, are most certainly far beyond the realm of random chance events to bring about. Such an idea seems absolutely ludicrous to me. Apart from divine and or some kind of intelligent intervention or guidance, such is pretty much simply impossible. I believe logic dictates that we exist by design. After which I do not see any reason to try and bring the God proclaimed by scripture down to my level by rejecting the idea that He could not have performed the task in six days as scripture plainly states, which also indicate this took place around six thousand years ago.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
 
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Amo2

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"Random chance evolution as the mechanism of our existence" is a fairytale. Darwin's great discovery is that it isn't random. It's O.K. to be skeptical of science. But it's wise to at least know what it is one is skeptical of.
Yes, people do play with the word evolution quite a bit. And quite a lot of people do subscribe to the random chance version of evolutionary theory.


Quote below from link above.

The secular humanists’ progression leads directly from a denial of God to an affirmation of naturalistic evolution. Special creation by God, and random evolution absent any divine guidance, are the only two possible accounts of human origins (Thompson, 2004, pp. 1-4). And while there are certain differences between various stripes of non-Christian humanists, virtually all secular humanists side with Darwinism (Geisler, 1999, pp. 337-338). According to this approach, there is no good reason for any religion other than humanism to exist, and “Salvationism” is pernicious (Preface, Humanist…, 1973). In fact, secular humanists realize that religion poses a threat to the propagation of evolutionary theory:


Quote below from link above.

6 Evolutionary Naturalism

Abstract​

This chapter examines the view of evolutionary naturalism on the concept of human nature. Evolutionary naturalism is based on Charles Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection and it holds that the human condition emerged from the European scientific Enlightenment. There are four essential elements in Darwin's theory. These are continual slight variation in inheritance, multiplication of organisms at a tremendous rate, struggle for existence, and continual elimination of the unfit to produce more and more adaptive organisms.
 
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The Barbarian

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"Random chance evolution as the mechanism of our existence" is a fairytale. Darwin's great discovery is that it isn't random. It's O.K. to be skeptical of science. But it's wise to at least know what it is one is skeptical of.

Yes, people do play with the word evolution quite a bit.
Creationists do. Partially, out of not knowing anything about it. Maybe some consciously misrepresent it. But as you know, Darwin's discovery is that it isn't random.
(stuff about "humanists" and what they think about evolution)

Maybe you'd be wiser to ask scientists who actually know what it is.

Cites this:

Abstract

This chapter examines the view of evolutionary naturalism on the concept of human nature. Evolutionary naturalism is based on Charles Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection and it holds that the human condition emerged from the European scientific Enlightenment. There are four essential elements in Darwin's theory. These are continual slight variation in inheritance, multiplication of organisms at a tremendous rate, struggle for existence, and continual elimination of the unfit to produce more and more adaptive organisms.

Do you not see that this directly contradicts your notion of evolution as random? It slightly misrepresents Darwin's theory, however.
 
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River Jordan

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Why would I need to disprove a theory which has never been proven? It is not and has not ever been observed. Then there is the subject of exactly what you mean by evolution, as there are different views regarding it. Change happens. Species can and do adapt to differing environments. This is observed. Whether this is a built in product of design, or the result of deep time slow or sporadic rapid evolutions from simple to complex, cannot be observed. We were not there. Nor do we observe any such events within recorded histories.

I find the idea that the incomprehensible level of complexity we see among living things and even their environment, are most certainly far beyond the realm of random chance events to bring about. Such an idea seems absolutely ludicrous to me. Apart from divine and or some kind of intelligent intervention or guidance, such is pretty much simply impossible. I believe logic dictates that we exist by design. After which I do not see any reason to try and bring the God proclaimed by scripture down to my level by rejecting the idea that He could not have performed the task in six days as scripture plainly states, which also indicate this took place around six thousand years ago.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
So you're not saying you can disprove the ToE, you just don't agree with it. Just like with you and I having different views on interpretation of parts of scripture, that's totally fine with me. It really makes no difference to me if you don't agree with the ToE or any other conclusion from science.
 
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The Barbarian

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It is not and has not ever been observed.
We see it going on in populations constantly. Perhaps you don't know what the scientific definition of biological evolution is. What do you think it is?

I find the idea that the incomprehensible level of complexity we see among living things and even their environment, are most certainly far beyond the realm of random chance events to bring about.
Darwin's great discovery is that it isn't by random chance. What you don't know about it, is holding you back from the truth.

I believe logic dictates that we exist by design.
Evidence shows your belief is wrong. In fact, engineers have found that evolutionary processes are more efficient at solving very complex problems than design would be. God, being omniscient, simply chose the best way to do it. Now, man is starting to catch on. Engineers use genetic algorithms that copy evolution to solve many difficult problems. This might seem wrong to humans, but...

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

After which I do not see any reason to try and bring the God proclaimed by scripture down to my level by rejecting the idea that He could not have performed the task in six days
He could have done anything. But He chose the processes we observe. We know that the creation story is not a literal history, because in one chapter it says six days and in another chapter it says one day.
 
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The Barbarian

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Back to where we always end up, over and over and over again for many years now. If the Holy scriptures support such drastically different beliefs of the mechanism of our origins according to personal interpretations, preferences, or opinions, then they most obviously do not represent any kind of objective truth. We all just make our own truth.
No. There is an objective truth. Some things, like the nature of the Genesis creation story, are not clear and subject to interpretation. The point that there is one omnipotent God Who created the world, is clear. How He went about it, is open to interpretation. But the way you suppose it happened will not affect your salvation.

Why would I accept your interpretation of the truth above, that scripture is only about the relationship between God and man?
That's what it's for. It's about God and man and our relationship. Why do you think He gave it to us?

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You don't have to worry about that. Creationists are no less Christian than the rest of us. Even if you get those things wrong, it won't hurt your salvation unless you make an idol of your interpretations.

What a bummer for humanity I guess. We will all face final judgment in relation to the WORD OF GOD, yet it is so hard to understand that we all must just make up what it really teaches for ourselves, and just hope we get lucky I guess. Not!
God makes it very clear who will be saved at judgement. And it won't be about whether or not you approve of the way He did creation.
 
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Jipsah

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Ignoring all scriptural statements which most obviously do support a young earth, which have been provided for you many times over by myself personally over the years, does not make them just magically disappear.
Scripture may suggest that the universe was created around the first of last year, but observation shows otherwise. The difference between solar day and what God reckons as a day is dealt with quite succinctly in 2Peter 3:8 and in Psalm 90:4. Yeah, your lot tries to "explain them away", but it doesn't work. God's "days" aren't solar "days". Scripture states it and empirical evidence confirms it. Add to that that there's no Christian dogma that depends on it. On top of that, insistence on it makes Christians sound like nincompoops. I think it's way past time to give it a rest.
Don't trust science.
As an engineer I've found that following scientific principles to be absolutely necessary. For instance, I've never found Ohm's Law to be untrue. I've never known of anyone who designed a processor or worked on designing an aircraft (shout out to small daughter and her contribution to "FLRRAA") who based any of their work on Genesis. As for the Christian Faith, I see very little of it that depends on Genesis being literally factual
I put my faith in God and His Word....
So far so good.
I trust FACTS - not science.
"Facts" being what you decide they are based on your a priopri beliefs, isn't that right?

Now Science has given us many good facts...such as the Earth orbits the Sun....So there are many things about science that I trust...and facts will and should alter the way I understand God and His Word....but altering the way I understand God and His Word based on science.
Then I take it you should embrace Flat Earth, since Flerfies declare that The Bible Says The Earth is Flat, and that all emoirical evidence to the contrary is a studied deceit propagated by somebody or other for apparently inexplicable "reasons". Sounds a lot like the "young earth" position, doesn't it?
..and the theories and hypothesis they present - I don't think so.
Gravity still keeps you from drifting off into space, though, doesn't it?
 
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The Barbarian

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Do you think the flood of Noah is an historical account?

Of course
So you think the sky is a solid dome with windows in it through which rain falls?
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were opened: 12 And the rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Really?
 
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Jipsah

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Ignoring all scriptural statements which most obviously do support a young earth, which have been provided for you many times over by myself personally over the years, does not make them just magically disappear.
Still haven't had any of your lot tell me how to have a literal evening and morning without an equally literal sun available to make it happen. Their usual response is to create another hitherto unknown "sun" or "light source" never even suggested in Scripture. And no, the mere existence of light doesn't get it done. That's the first clue that you're dealing with poetic/symbolic language. The writer of Genesis wasn't trying to pass along technical information, he was telling a teaching story. The story is retold in much more concise and less poetic form in John 1.
 
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Jipsah

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No, not the same scenario at all. Holy scripture absolutely does address creation in six days
Acording to Psalm 90 and 2Peter 3:8, how long is a "day" for God?
Yes some have suggested as you state for centuries, but they were a minority,
Vox populi. vox Dei?
 
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Jipsah

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It seems appropriate to placing fully intended boundaries upon a time frame shortly to be established, according to that very time frame.
To what end other than narrative purposes?
Not to mention appropriate to the understanding of beings whose only experience will be within those very time frames as well. Having being created after they were established by the word of God.
No sun required for a period of time defined solely ever based on the movement of the earth vis-a-vis the sun.
Right.
As far as the poles go, we do not even know if earths original land masses were at the poles
We know when the sun was created, though, don't we
Why would I want to square Peter away for a reference about God which is no doubt very true.
Except during the Creation, which had to happen in solar days when there was no sun for the benefit of humans not yet created.
As we used to say in the Old Counytty, "Do what?"/
What is time to Him who has no beginning or end.
Except for Creation, when He had to to it in 6 solar days.
Time is relevant to us as created beings according to His own purposes, we most certainly are subject to it this side of heaven.
And the time it took to create the universe is very important because... reasons.
The statement was not made concerning the length of creation days, but rather future scoffers who would deny the global flood and coming future judgement.
I'm sorry, what? By giving the scoffers something else to scoff at? And thern you quote St Peter saying that God doesn't reckon time as we do yo demonstrate your belief and contention that God must reckon time precisely as we do! :doh:
Who are you to say that the above scriptures are all I need to know about Creation
Jipsah, Son of Haeja. And what is lacking in St John's account? He tells us that our Lord Christ Himself created all that exists, and is thus God Himself. Was thetre further information there you believe he should have imparted? Like an extra sun to make the Genesis account "work"?
, in direct contradiction to the word of God Himself which provides far more information about it?
I'm sorry, is John 1 not part of God's Word? Hmmmm...
Who do you think you are?
Jipsah, Son of... oh, we've been over that. So you believe that we desperately need to know how long it took God, in human terms (really?) to create the universe, even if your schedule requires, shall we say, modification, (the addition of a pre-sun sun) for even your lot to accept it as true
God Himself said -

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying
Yep. based on the Genesis narrative, told in sybolic "days" that weren't human/solar "days" at all. No sun, no evenings, no mornings, and God is not, was not, nor ever will be, restricted by human reckoning of time at all, in whatever increments you choose.
Do you really think I am going to ignore the words of God above
No, you're just going to make them say what youy reckon they should, and then rail at folks who look at God's actual Creation and notice that it sure does look a whole lot older than that. Wow, ya think?
, because you have suggested I do so because that is all I need to know?
WEll yeah, I reckon that it's Really Important for you to "know" that the universe is only 6000 years old because otherwise you might be mistaken for one of those folks who've dedicated their lives to studying the actual universe that God created and found that it's really, really unlikely that it's anything like that new, and that it sure looks like He spent a goof few millions years . Y'all know He got it done in less than a week from preliminary design to final release.

Now it helps a lot that you get to ignore Scripture's insistance that God isn't stuck in time as we are, and that in fact, rather than being bound in time - brace yourself now - He created it. Oh, but a week is a week"! Really? What watch was God looking at? He is, and always has been, always will be.

No sun to reckon time by - He created it. No moon to calculate month'as by. He made them. No animals to be born, grow old,and die. He created them. No ga;axies to spin up and run down. He built them. No seasons. No aeons. Npne of the "stuf" we thkiink of as the universe; no universe. No space; no time.

Oh, but Creation of all that took 6 days, whatever that meant when only God existed.

Six literal, (oh yes, it must be literal) "days:. And then God could knock off and go on to His next project.
Get a grip man.
And you want to tell me to get a grip? You're flogging a religion where God is just this bloke who just created everything, Took Him a week, Pieve o' cake. None of this millions of years stuff; easy peasy.

And this is what Christiians are supposed to believe, literally? Please
Why should anyone else be limited in their understanding or sharing of the word of God
Yeah, all you have to do is reduce it to the level understood by preliterate hunter-gatherers and declare thet to be the eternal truth of God.
, by the limitations you have set upon yourself?
You much prefer placing absurd limits on God and His creation.
 
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