6,000 Years?

[Jipsah]

The scientific consensus is that there is no empirical basis to support the concept of life after death

empirical
[em-pir-i-kuhl]

adjective​

1. derived from or guided by direct experience or by experiment, rather than abstract principles or theory.
   Empirical evidence of changes in kelp consumption was gathered by measuring the bite marks in seaweed fronds.
   Synonyms: pragmatic, firsthand, practical
   Antonyms: theoretical, secondhand
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, and hence sometimes insufficiently authoritative, especially as in medicine.
   That is nothing but an empirical conclusion with no regard for the laws of thermodynamics.
3. 
   
4. 
   Synonyms: pragmatic, firsthand, practical
   Antonyms: theoretical, secondhand
5. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment, as scientific laws.
   Theoretical physics is criticized for producing complex concepts that are mathematical, not empirical.

"Silvio, I gotta go, go.
Find out something only dead men know."

 

[davetaff]

No. Read Genesis again , without listening to other voices/ traditions.

Hi
I have read Genesis many times thank you it tells us that God created through Jesus Christ in 6 days the 6 days began when Noah stepped of the ark and will end when Christ presents his body of believers to the Father.
The creation account should be understood as symbolic the fourth day the sun symbolic for Christ the light of the world the moon his bride the stars the children of God the creation would take 6 days each day 1000 years long.
We are now towards the end of the 6th day awaiting the return of Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[The Barbarian]

Any single light source and a rotating earth would present an evening and a morning.

If so, moonrise would be morning. So that isn't going to work.

 

[Platte]

empirical
[em-pir-i-kuhl]

adjective​

1. derived from or guided by direct experience or by experiment, rather than abstract principles or theory.
   Empirical evidence of changes in kelp consumption was gathered by measuring the bite marks in seaweed fronds.
   Synonyms: pragmatic, firsthand, practical
   Antonyms: theoretical, secondhand
2. depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, and hence sometimes insufficiently authoritative, especially as in medicine.
   That is nothing but an empirical conclusion with no regard for the laws of thermodynamics.
3. 
   
4. 
   Synonyms: pragmatic, firsthand, practical
   Antonyms: theoretical, secondhand
5. provable or verifiable by experience or experiment, as scientific laws.
   Theoretical physics is criticized for producing complex concepts that are mathematical, not empirical.

"Silvio, I gotta go, go.
Find out something only dead men know."

The point is....and I hope everyone is listening...

Don't trust science.

I put my faith in God and His Word....I trust FACTS - not science. Now Science has given us many good facts...such as the Earth orbits the Sun....So there are many things about science that I trust...and facts will and should alter the way I understand God and His Word....but altering the way I understand God and His Word based on science...and the theories and hypothesis they present - I don't think so.

 

[FaithT]

The point is....and I hope everyone is listening...

Don't trust science.

I put my faith in God and His Word....I trust FACTS - not science. Now Science has given us many good facts...such as the Earth orbits the Sun....So there are many things about science that I trust...and facts will and should alter the way I understand God and His Word....but altering the way I understand God and His Word based on science...and the theories and hypothesis they present - I don't think so.

God gave us science and a BRAIN to help figure these things out.

 

[Platte]

God gave us science and a BRAIN to help figure these things out.

Science is man's secular mostly humanstic study of what God created. God gave us His Creation and His Word.

 

[FaithT]

Science is man's secular mostly humanstic study of what God created. God gave us His Creation and His Word.

Not every word in the Bible was meant to be read literally, but you already know that since posters have been saying it non stop.

 

[tampasteve]

Science is man's secular mostly humanstic study of what God created. God gave us His Creation and His Word.

Bah, science has been the pursuit of Man since we were first let loose on this Earth. God even tells us to seek out the "hidden things"
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Jipsah]

Not every word in the Bible was meant to be read literally, but you already know that since posters have been saying it non stop.

Oh, I guarantee there are things in the Bible that Platte doesn't take literally. They tend to come from the New Testament, though.

 

[Jipsah]

The point is....and I hope everyone is listening...

Depends. Did you grok the definition of "empirical" tThe Bob Dylan line wasn't just a random quote. From an empirical standpoint, there is no evidence of life after death. It's "something only dead men know". Christians believe it as a matter of faith; "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Not seen, as in not based on empirical evidence.

Don't trust science.

It this day and time you prety much trust science pretty much every minute of every day.

I put my faith in God and His Word.

And type on computers. powered by electricity, and ride in cars, and have water piped into your house, and eat ice cream in the summertime, as infinitum.

..I trust FACTS - not science.

Whatever that means.

Now Science has given us many good facts...such as the Earth orbits the Sun....So there are many things about science that I trust...and facts will and should alter the way I understand God and His Word....but altering the way I understand God and His Word based on science...and the theories and hypothesis they present - I don't think so.

Funny, God created all the natural laws upon which science is based. He's the one who designed things to work as they do.

 

[Jipsah]

Science is man's secular mostly humanstic study of what God created.

Secular? As opposed to what? Humanistic? What does that mean in the context of science? The study of what God created? Obviously, since that includes roughly everything.

God gave us His Creation and His Word.

And science gave us all the stuff, good and and bad, that we've made out of what God gave is. All products, one way or another, of science, which is a product of the sense God gave us.

 

[FaithT]

Oh, I guarantee there are things in the Bible that Platte doesn't take literally. They tend to come from the New Testament, though.

Platte, what in the Bible don’t you take literally?

 

[Amo2]

This is the heart of the problem; a lot of people think their own interpretation of Genesis is God's word. Some interpret it as a literal history, even though the text in Genesis 1 makes it clear that it is not.



Yes. A lot of people believe in a 6,000 year old Earth which holy scripture does not support or even suggest in any way, shape, or form. Then they interpret scripture according to such predetermined presumption.

Ignoring all scriptural statements which most obviously do support a young earth, which have been provided for you many times over by myself personally over the years, does not make them just magically disappear. They are there, along with genealogies and such which do support and or are highly suggestive of the same. On the other hand, I don't even have any opportunity to ignore any scripture you would or could provide suggesting your own deep time views, as you have not and cannot ever supply such scriptures. So be it.

 

[Amo2]

Only in the same way scripture doesn't "support or even suggest" that mountains are formed by tectonics, even though Amos tells us God creates mountains.

No, not the same scenario at all. Holy scripture absolutely does address creation in six days, and contains historical record of about 6000 years. Scripture does not address tectonics or deep formation of mountains at all. Though the globally catastrophic events of the flood described therein, are of course highly suggestive of mountain formation in relation to that event.

Only in the same way most of us interpret parts of scripture that seem to indicate a flat earth, as saying something else.

Not so. Same problem. The bible says nowhere that the earth is flat. It plainly states that the earth and all in it were created in six days, and records around six thousand years of history since then.

Jewish and Biblical scholars have been advocating and debating about non-literal interpretations of Genesis for centuries, so it's not as simplistic as you're trying to make it and it certainly isn't limited to just two options (literal or allegory).

Yes it is as simplistic as the bible plainly stating that which I have already stated twice, and nowhere stating deep time scenarios. Yes some have suggested as you state for centuries, but they were a minority, and had no scriptural support for those views either.

However, I often wonder why those in the literal camp seem to be so upset or offended when they encounter someone who interprets scripture differently than they do. I understand you read Genesis differently than me and it doesn't bother me one bit. Does it bother you that some Christians read it differently?

People believing as they wish does not bother me at all. People making false claims that holy scripture supports views that it does not even suggest or address anywhere, is slightly irritating though. Especially when connected to such fairly tale theories as natural undirected random chance evolution, as the mechanism of our existence.

 

[Amo2]

Did God ever say "let there be a formless earth and darkness over the face of the deep"? No? Ok, that's not part of the 6-days of creation.

Never said it was. Nor do the scriptures ever attempt to explain exactly what is meant by the state described before the creation account. Accepting that it was chaotic emptiness or such of course. A far, far cry from Big Bang deep time evolutions unto order and apparent design from utter chaos.

 

[Amo2]

The lack of a sun for the first three days of Creation make those "evenings" and "mornings" problematic, don't you think?
(And just for entertainment porpoises, how long are "evenings" and "morning" at the earth's poles? )
s

No actually. It seems appropriate to placing fully intended boundaries upon a time frame shortly to be established, according to that very time frame. Not to mention appropriate to the understanding of beings whose only experience will be within those very time frames as well. Having being created after they were established by the word of God.

As far as the poles go, we do not even know if earths original land masses were at the poles, as the global flood completely changed the surface of the earth. Even evolutionists believe in a prior super continent or Pangea, I do believe. Which may not have extended to the poles, but remained within the more mild climates of the earth. Nevertheless, even if there was land to be occupied at the poles at creation, humanity would have no problem keeping time without the usual evenings and mornings elsewhere. They weren't some kind of evolutionary ape like creatures after all, but highly intelligent and intellectual beings at the hight of human perfection being created in the image of God Himself.

Nice try, but nothing has made God allegorical, just the "days" of Creation. But you may want to allegorize this:
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

See above. You may want to square St, Peter away when the opportunity arises.

Why would I want to square Peter away for a reference about God which is no doubt very true. What is time to Him who has no beginning or end. Time is relevant to us as created beings according to His own purposes, we most certainly are subject to it this side of heaven. The statement was not made concerning the length of creation days, but rather future scoffers who would deny the global flood and coming future judgement.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Here's all you really need to know about the Creation:

Here's all you really need to know about Creation:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Who are you to say that the above scriptures are all I need to know about Creation, in direct contradiction to the word of God Himself which provides far more information about it? Who do you think you are? God Himself said -

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,..................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Do you really think I am going to ignore the words of God above, because you have suggested I do so because that is all I need to know? Get a grip man.

Psa 33:1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright. 2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. 3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise. 4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. 10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. 11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Why should anyone else be limited in their understanding or sharing of the word of God, by the limitations you have set upon yourself?

 

[The Barbarian]

Ignoring all scriptural statements which most obviously do support a young earth, which have been provided for you many times over by myself personally over the years, does not make them just magically disappear.

Nor does declaring that they support your preferences make them do that for you. Your interpretation is a minority opinion, but you are entitled to it. YEC is not a heresy; YECs are no less Christian than the rest of us. What you are not entitled to do is assert that your word is God's word.

They are there, along with genealogies and such which do support and or are highly suggestive of the same.

I notice that there are two, conflicting genealogies for Jesus in scripture, so I'm pretty sure they aren't literal genealogies, either.

On the other hand, I don't even have any opportunity to ignore any scripture you would or could provide suggesting your own deep time views, as you have not and cannot ever supply such scriptures.

There are no scriptures suggesting protons or leukocytes, either. For the same reason. If you want to make scripture into a science text, you'll be continuously misled.

Scripture is about God and man and our relationship. Why not just accept it as it is?

 

[River Jordan]

No, not the same scenario at all. Holy scripture absolutely does address creation in six days, and contains historical record of about 6000 years. Scripture does not address tectonics or deep formation of mountains at all. Though the globally catastrophic events of the flood described therein, are of course highly suggestive of mountain formation in relation to that event.


Not so. Same problem. The bible says nowhere that the earth is flat. It plainly states that the earth and all in it were created in six days, and records around six thousand years of history since then.


Yes it is as simplistic as the bible plainly stating that which I have already stated twice, and nowhere stating deep time scenarios. Yes some have suggested as you state for centuries, but they were a minority, and had no scriptural support for those views either.



People believing as they wish does not bother me at all. People making false claims that holy scripture supports views that it does not even suggest or address anywhere, is slightly irritating though. Especially when connected to such fairly tale theories as natural undirected random chance evolution, as the mechanism of our existence.

I'm glad to see people interpreting scripture differently doesn't bother you. I feel the same.

I have to wonder about what you said about evolutionary biology though and how you referred to it as a "fairy tale". Is that because of how it conflicts with your reading of scripture, or do you actually believe you can disprove the theory of evolution? If it's the second that's a really big boast and could be read as you implying that you know biology better than professional biologists. Hopefully that's not the case though.

 

[The Barbarian]

People making false claims that holy scripture supports views that it does not even suggest or address anywhere, is slightly irritating though. Especially when connected to such fairly tale theories as natural undirected random chance evolution, as the mechanism of our existence.

"Random chance evolution as the mechanism of our existence" is a fairytale. Darwin's great discovery is that it isn't random. It's O.K. to be skeptical of science. But it's wise to at least know what it is one is skeptical of.

 

[Amo2]

Nor does declaring that they support your preferences make them do that for you. Your interpretation is a minority opinion, but you are entitled to it. YEC is not a heresy; YECs are no less Christian than the rest of us. What you are not entitled to do is assert that your word is God's word.


I notice that there are two, conflicting genealogies for Jesus in scripture, so I'm pretty sure they aren't literal genealogies, either.


There are no scriptures suggesting protons or leukocytes, either. For the same reason. If you want to make scripture into a science text, you'll be continuously misled.

Scripture is about God and man and our relationship. Why not just accept it as it is?

Back to where we always end up, over and over and over again for many years now. If the Holy scriptures support such drastically different beliefs of the mechanism of our origins according to personal interpretations, preferences, or opinions, then they most obviously do not represent any kind of objective truth. We all just make our own truth.

Why would I accept your interpretation of the truth above, that scripture is only about the relationship between God and man? If you can make it say what you want, so can I and everyone else. Nevertheless -

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which swordproceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

What a bummer for humanity I guess. We will all face final judgment in relation to the WORD OF GOD, yet it is so hard to understand that we all must just make up what it really teaches for ourselves, and just hope we get lucky I guess. Not!

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

It is not guess work, and there is no room for the speculations and theories of fallen humanity in the above set standard of truth. All may of course and do choose whatever they wish for themselves, as God Himself has ordained it to be so. Nevertheless there will come a day of reckoning, and all will judged by and according to the WORD OF GOD.