DeSantis to make Florida first state to end *all* vaccine mandates for schools

[probinson]

Trust isn't the goal;

It should be. Public health cannot be effective without trust.

preventing the spread of serious illness in schools is.

Perhaps that's the end goal, but if you want to achieve that goal, you must have the trust of the people.

And trust in what? Authorities? Uh-uh: don't trust them. Trust that vaccines work? That's easy to determine. Trust that vaccines saves lives? A walk through an old cemetery with tiny graves can do that.

The statement "vaccines work" is completely meaningless and shortsighted. It's like saying "drugs work".

Some vaccines are more effective than others. Some have a much longer history and evidence-base than others. The risk profile is not the same for all vaccines. There are valid questions surrounding the recommended vaccine schedule in the US. By the time a child is 18, if they have received every vaccine the CDC recommends, they will have received ~70 doses of vaccines. That is FAR higher than other countries, and it's worth asking why.

For example, most other countries do not recommend COVID vaccines for children. In fact, many countries have updated their guidance to only offer COVID vaccines to those 65+. The US is updating their guidance to be more in-line with the scientific realty that most young people are not at any real risk from COVID-19. Yet we have people jumping ship from the CDC like crazy because the US is changing their COVID vaccine recommendations to be more in line with evidence and the rest of the world.

This is a far more nuanced discussion than "vaccines work".

 

[iluvatar5150]

Once you have been lied to by the agency mandating that vaccine, it destroys the trust and you begin to question other things. It is entirely rational to question someone who has lied to you. It was also quite predictable. I was saying back in 2021 that what was at stake was trust in all vaccines.

I didn’t say that reaction wasn’t understandable; I said it was irrational and unscientific. If you’re balking at a mandate because you find its scientific basis to be spurious, then you should be judging every vaccine on its own merits, digging into the science yourself. If you’re making decisions based on how much you trust the person telling you to do something, that’s a perfectly valid (and I would argue, necessary in a complicated society) way of going about your life, but it’s not one rooted in science.

I honestly don't believe we'd be having this discussion right now if the COVID vaccines had been voluntary.

People were complaining about measures before the vaccines were even available. I agree that some of the mandates were stupid and inconsistently applied, but even the reasonable ones drew ire. Once it became useful for Republicans to turn this into a partisan issue, the game was over.

TRUST. That's what we're talking about.

Yes, trust. Not science.

Why? I know you like to pretend that staying six-feet away from people was beneficial, but there was absolutely no evidence to support such a requirement.

lol, there you go again, misreading and conflating things.

I didn’t say anything about 6’, nor do I think I’ve ever argued for that as a threshold. I don’t know what the science shows for distancing, but 6’ seems pretty friggin close to me if the goal is stopping the spread of a an airborne disease.

Listen to Fauci answer questions about "distancing".

It sort of just appeared. No studies were done. It wasn't based on any data. Yet the entire world went insane, drawing six-foot circles on the ground so kids could play in their "pods" at recess. Based on absolutely nothing other than an "empiric" proclamation. And here you are pretending in 2025, in hindsight, knowing that there was never any basis for such a restriction, that it had "scientific validity". It did not. It never did. It was absolute, utter nonsense.

If you want to argue that the 6’ limit wasn’t based on anything, fine. What Fauci didn’t say was unsupported, and what I was getting at, is that farther is better.

 

[Desk trauma]

An odd thing, for prior to the pandemic, most anti-vaxxers were in places like the Northwest and New York. And how many patient zeroes came from outside the US?

No need to quote my post to post random questions unrelated to it.

 

[probinson]

I didn’t say that reaction wasn’t understandable; I said it was irrational and unscientific.

Unscientific? Yes. Irrational? No. When an agency has broken trust, it is not irrational to not trust that agency any longer. It is also not irrational to question things you once believed were true.

If you’re balking at a mandate because you find its scientific basis to be spurious, then you should be judging every vaccine on its own merits, digging into the science yourself.

Indeed. And that is exactly what I do.

If you’re making decisions based on how much you trust the person telling you to do something, that’s a perfectly valid (and I would argue, necessary in a complicated society) way of going about your life, but it’s not one rooted in science.

Agreed. If there's one thing COVID taught me, it's that just because someone publishes a "study" doesn't mean it has followed scientific rigor. That's why I like to read studies for myself and see what the data say. I generally start with funding. It's remarkable that if a study has been funded by the pharmaceutical companies, it's far more likely to find benefit.

People were complaining about measures before the vaccines were even available.

And rightfully so. Most of the measures were completely made up and had no evidence-base.

I agree that some of the mandates were stupid and inconsistently applied, but even the reasonable ones drew ire.

I suspect you and I would vary greatly on what we would deem "reasonable" measures. But just for fun, can you name a measure that you found to be "reasonable" that drew ire?

Once it became useful for Republicans to turn this into a partisan issue, the game was over.

Oh please. Democrats and Republicans alike turned the entire pandemic into a partisan issue. I'm 100% convinced that if Trump had told everyone to wear masks, no one would have done it. Partisan politics were all over the recommendations. Science was abandoned in favor of partisan policies.

lol, there you go again, misreading and conflating things.

I didn’t say anything about 6’, nor do I think I’ve ever argued for that as a threshold.

You said, "For example, they’d scoff at outdoor masking requirements while abiding by distancing requirements indoors." What exactly am I to think when you speak of "distancing requirements indoors"? Literally everywhere had signs that told people to stay six feet apart. Lines were painted on the floors of businesses. "Distancing requirements indoors" clearly meant six-feet during the pandemic.

I don’t know what the science shows for distancing, but 6’ seems pretty friggin close to me if the goal is stopping the spread of a an airborne disease.

That's because there is no science for distancing. "It sort of just appeared" is the "science", according to Fauci.

If you want to argue that the 6’ limit wasn’t based on anything, fine.

I don't have to "argue" that. Fauci admitted it while being questioned.

What Fauci didn’t say was unsupported, and what I was getting at, is that farther is better.

Yeah, like, not even being in the same place. Staying home from school/work when you're sick is just common sense. Staying six-feet away from someone with a cloth over your face is complete hokum.

 

[NxNW]

You said:
There is no such party.
Polio doesn't care what you trust.

I said:
Yes, it's the democrats party.
So you don't trust your vaccines, got it.

I "comprehended" what you said, but it seems you didn't comprehend what I said.

That's not the Dems, and I trust the vaccines.

 

[Tuur]

For reference, here is the Cochrane Review on influenza vaccines.

We found 52 clinical trials of over 80,000 adults. We were unable to determine the impact of bias on about 70% of the included studies due to insufficient reporting of details. Around 15% of the included studies were well designed and conducted. We focused on reporting of results from 25 studies that looked at inactivated vaccines. Injected influenza vaccines probably have a small protective effect against influenza and ILI (moderate-certainty evidence), as 71 people would need to be vaccinated to avoid one influenza case, and 29 would need to be vaccinated to avoid one case of ILI. Vaccination may have little or no appreciable effect on hospitalisations (low-certainty evidence) or number of working days lost.

From my own anecdotal observation:

I started getting the flu vaccines after 1993. I had noticed that the older I got, the longer it took to recover, I used to could count on on getting the flu every other years, with a few back-to-back years. I started taking the vaccines, and haven't had the flu since. My parents had the same experience. The one break-through inflection happened after the virus was found to have mutated, and they had lower fevers than a nearby family who hadn't vaccinated. Make of it what you will.

 

[Tuur]

No need to quote my post to post random questions unrelated to it.

"Random questions" or inconvenient truth? But don't worry; CF will probably have your back.

 

[Larniavc]

DeSantis to make Florida first state to end all vaccine mandates for schools​

Florida surgeon general equates vaccine mandates to ‘slavery’ while announcing new policy push​

Equating vaccine mandates with “slavery,” Joseph Ladapo, the state’s surgeon general who has a history of promoting health-related misinformation, said the Florida Department of Health and the governor’s office would work together to end every single vaccine mandate.

“Every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery,” Ladapo said.

[Currently, school] vaccines are mandated to prevent life-threatening illnesses such as measles, mumps, and rubella, polio, tetanus, Hepatitis B, and many more.

“Who am I as a government or anyone else, or as a man standing here now, to tell you what you should put in your body?"

Well, you're supposed to be the state's top public health official.

Immunization rates among Florida kindergartners have dropped significantly [through exemptions] over the last five years, according to the Florida Department of Health. In 2020, 93.5 percent of kindergarteners were vaccinated. In 2024, that number has dropped to 89.8 percent.

Can America stop thinking of ways to hurt kids?

 

[Larniavc]

That's the legal basis. It's reasonable (a requirement to attend schools paid for by the state) without dictatorial powers.

But isn’t also the case that American is doing it’s best to make schools effectively private schools by introducing the voucher system that seems to facilitate religious schools which seem to favour fewer demands for vaccination for students?

 

[Larniavc]

I'm a strong proponent of vaccinations for a very simple reason: I grew up beside an old cemetery and remember the little graves. A funeral home director in the 1980s commented that the biggest change he'd seen was he didn't sell as many small caskets. I was just after that era, but knew someone who had a withered arm from Polio and heard about what was once called childhood illnesses. All this was known to my parents and theirs, and there was no opposition that I can recall to vaccines: people remembered life without it. We had heard stories about ailments like lockjaw to the point where we were glad to be vaccinated. The generation after mine likely heard less. And people forgot, forgot what it was like, forgot when the old folks had the superstition "Bright Christmas; fat graveyard" because deaths due to illness were much more common then than now.

I grew up in the late seventies in the UK and have second hand memories of exactly what you are describing.

 

[Desk trauma]

"Random questions" or inconvenient truth? But don't worry; CF will probably have your back.

Random questions that had nothing to do with anything I posted in this thread.

 

[Larniavc]

Would any Europeans here care to comment on this?

When I was a kid we have vaccinations at school but we could opt out if we wanted. One of the kids I knew was from a very religious family and opted out. No one from my class did.

Being kids we would single those folks out for victimisation chanting ‘lurgy’ at the poor lad. But that was how things were back then. It was pretty dog eat dog.

 

[Larniavc]

You're correct.

Do you think the way to build trust in people skeptical of vaccines is to force them to vaccinate their children?

Some people simply do not trust people they disagree with so a mandate is required.

Like with seat belts, crash helmets and ear protectors.

 

[Larniavc]

You don't think recommendations accomplish the same thing?

Nope. It’s recommended to not smoke and drink and to exercise.

 

[Larniavc]

I have to admit, it's fascinating in a weird way to watch a once great nation fall lower and lower and more and more rapidly, not because of any external issues, but out of sheer internal stupidity.

I’ve always maintained that the greatest threat to the Americans is their ancestral enemy the Americans.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Yeah, like, not even being in the same place. Staying home from school/work when you're sick is just common sense.

As is staying away from people who are sick or who are potentially sick, which was the point of the forced closures, which drew loads of ire.

 

[BeckyJ]

That's not the Dems, and I trust the vaccines.

So in your opinion if "it's not the dems"...then who is it in your view?

 

[probinson]

From my own anecdotal observation:

I started getting the flu vaccines after 1993. I had noticed that the older I got, the longer it took to recover, I used to could count on on getting the flu every other years, with a few back-to-back years. I started taking the vaccines, and haven't had the flu since. My parents had the same experience. The one break-through inflection happened after the virus was found to have mutated, and they had lower fevers than a nearby family who hadn't vaccinated. Make of it what you will.

From my own anecdotal experience:

I did not take the flu vaccine until around 2010. That's when I was diagnosed with mild asthma, and my doctor recommended it. So, I started getting my annual flu vaccine at his recommendation. I did not regularly get the flu prior to 2010. I provably only had the flu 2-3 times my entire ife. But I figured with a new respiratory diagnosis it would be wise. I had the flu almost every year from 2010-2019 while I was getting the vaccine. In 2020, I had my flu vaccine scheduled, but. because I was staying home during COVID, I canceled it. I did not get sick that year. I haven't gotten another flu vaccine since, and I haven't had the flu since. Make of that what you will.

Now here we have two completely different experiences. It's easy for me to see why you get your annual flu vaccine, and I hope it's easy for you to see why I don't get my flu vaccine.

I also had a very negative experience when I got my two-dose Pfizer COVID vaccine. I had severe adverse events that I reported to VAERS and V-Safe. When I got my COVID vaccine, I did so only because it was mandated. I already had and recovered from COVID, so the vaccine really wasn't necessary as I had already acquired the same or better protection from that prior infection. That mandate caused me to introduce my body to unnecessary harms for no benefit. I will never get another COVID shot again after what happened with my second dose.

Hopefully you're getting the point. Everybody's anecdotal experience is different. While you are wise to continue getting the flu vaccine because it helps protect you from infection, I am wise to NOT get the flu vaccine, because I seem to be more prone to infection when I get the vaccine. Why? Because our bodies are unique. Because not everyone responds the same way to the same intervention. But mandates don't care about any of that.

 

[probinson]

As is staying away from people who are sick or who are potentially sick, which was the point of the forced closures, which drew loads of ire.

Ah yes, the "essential" businesses. Like Home Depot. But not your local hardware store. Or Walmart. But not your local convenience store. Or bars that served food, but not bars that only had drinks. The government suddenly decided it had the authority to tell you what was and was not "essential". Although I think small business owners would find their businesses "essential" to survive.

Those closures were ridiculously arbitrary and they resulted in countless permanent small business closures. I mean, I guess if you think it's "reasonable" to give up your livelihood and everything you've worked for your entire life. But I can understand why this "drew loads of ire".

Likewise, closing schools had a significantly negative impact on out student's education. Apparently, some felt the price of "protecting" our students during COVID was robbing them of their education and life experiences that they'll never get back. I'll never forget the parade through our town of high school seniors in their cars for graduation in 2020. They went to school for 13 years and never got to experience the joy and satisfaction of walking across the stage at their commencement to receive their diploma in front of their friends and family. That was taken away from them because of the inane and arbitrary forced closures. I can also understand why that "drew loads of ire".

I think this is why many people have convinced themselves that we had to do something, even iff they knew it wouldn't help. Otherwise, they have to admit they were just part of a big performance in which they willingly surrendered their rights for absolutely nothing.

 

[probinson]

Some people simply do not trust people they disagree with so a mandate is required.

We've already established that mandates are not required in the majority of Europe. I'm curious why you think that is.