6,000 Years?

[FaithT]

That seems to be a foolish motive. When the Southern Baptist Convention apologized for their former support of slavery and segregation, they were quite right praised by everyone for doing so.

Yeah, but maybe they feel like they’ve got to save face. They’ve been going against the evidence for so long now that it would be embarrassing to admit that they’ve been teaching something wrong all this time?

 

[Job 33:6]

Yeah, but maybe they feel like they’ve got to save face. They’ve been going against the evidence for so long now that it would be embarrassing to admit that they’ve been teaching something wrong all this time?

I would never underestimate how far people will go to protect their pride. Even at a subconscious or psychological level where they may not even realize that they're doing it. When you challenge something like the age of the earth. It's not about science. It's not about the Bible either. It's a challenge to someone's identity. Who they are. How they've built their worldview. How they see things, how they see people.

What would it mean to shake the very foundations of how they've known the world to be, their whole lives?

And then there are the charlatans and con artists who are making money off of these same people.

 

[The Barbarian]

And then there are the charlatans and con artists who are making money off of these same people.

I think the sincere believers far outnumber the Kent Hovinds and Ken Hams.

 

[FaithT]

I think the sincere believers far outnumber the Kent Hovinds and Ken Hams.

You don’t think Ken Ham is genuine? My drama teacher from high school just visited his Ark Encounter.

 

[The Barbarian]

You don’t think Ken Ham is genuine? My drama teacher from high school just visited his Ark Encounter.

If Ham was sincere, he'd take his ark, pack it with animals and 8 people and set it adrift for a year in the ocean, coming back a year later to see how it went. I'm pretty sure why he'll never actually do that.

 

[Job 33:6]

A good video on YEC views of where people came from.

 

[FaithT]

If Ham was sincere, he'd take his ark, pack it with animals and 8 people and set it adrift for a year in the ocean, coming back a year later to see how it went. I'm pretty sure why he'll never actually do that.

He’s got some educated people working with him.

 

[David Lamb]

If Ham was sincere, he'd take his ark, pack it with animals and 8 people and set it adrift for a year in the ocean, coming back a year later to see how it went. I'm pretty sure why he'll never actually do that.

Being in the UK, I have never visited Ark Encounter. However, I have seen videos of its construction. Unlike the original ark, Ark Encounter was designed as an exhibition centre, and although it replicates the original ark in many ways, such as size, number of storeys, etc., it was not built as a sea-going vessel. Besides, according to the Genesis account, Noah didn't collect the animals; God brought them to the ark. Indeed, the original ark was built at God's command to save 8 people and the animals from the Flood. Unless God gives Ken Ham a similar command, why should he do so?

 

[The Barbarian]

Unless God gives Ken Ham a similar command, why should he do so?

It would, of course, support Ham's interpretation of the Flood story as a literal worldwide flood, in which all the animals were saved by living on an ark for a year. After all, Ham claims that the ark he built was to God's specs.

 

[River Jordan]

Why are they not written records?

Again, according to History…the world’s first civilization was ~6000 years ago and recorded History began approximately 6000 years ago. Using the genealogies from the Bible creation was ~6000 years ago. I’m not asking whether you believe anything…but how can you not stop and think wow what a coincidence.

How about this: the world’s first civilization (according to History) was in the same region as Eden (Mesopotamia) and the creation setting of mankind. Another coincidence? Those are head scratching facts.

You may be missing something important here.

Exactly how do you know that written language first appeared around 6K years ago? From science. Well the same science also shows there was a lot of other human activities going on well before 6k years ago. Yet you accept the former and deny the latter even though they're effectively the same science.

That's called "cherry picking" and is something that you should probably try and avoid.

 

[Platte]

He still didn't define the length, in human terms, of those "days", did He?

I'm not keen on majoring in the minors in any case. You tell me that God's "days" are 86,400 seconds long. But they St. Peter s "day" is as a 1000 years, and 1,000 years as a day. You gonna take him to task for saying that?

The thing is, unless God is a trickster and has made the universe He created "look" quite a few millenia older than 6k years, it is in fact just that. And the real downsides to beating the tub for 86,400 second creation, or a flat earth, or a global flood, or any such thing, is that: A) you can't prove it, B) it makes Christians, and Christianity, look goofy, and C) are completely irrelevant to the Christian Faith.

Our Faith is based on God having intervened directly in human history to reconcile sinful human beings to JHimself. To steal a line from William Jennings Bryan, it's about the Rock of Ages, not the Age of Rocks. How long it took, by human reckoning, for God to create the universe has no real bearing on or anything to do with the altogether unarguable facts that:

10 [Christ] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

It ain't about how long it took God to create the universe, or whether the earth is flat or not. St. Paul said it best: For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. The old saint understood how things work; don't clutter your message with irrelevant stuff. The message is Jesus Christ.

Good luck

 

[Amo2]

But of course YEC isn't actually based upon a literal reading of the Bible.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

If I said, "When I began to create a pizza, or In the beginning when I created a pizza, the pizza was formless and void, and darkness covered the face of the sauce. Then I said, let there be 300 degrees in the oven. And in 7 hours, the pizza was completed and it was good".

Would you then argue that my pizza appeared into existence a mere 7 hours ago?

Herein lies the main problem of your above comparison, in that nothing you ever say or do will ever amount to anything even remotely like God's word, its power, authority and or the immediate action which follows it. That you would even make such a comparison, is revealing. Why would I need to argue anything about you and pizza, when the very scriptures you quote conclusively state that God said let there be a certain thing, and immediate action took place unto that very thing in one day. Which is of course a literal rendering of just exactly what is written, which you quoted while denying what is actually and literally written right in front of your face. Though this is certainly not the only place in scripture that this exact process is literally spelled out for us. Which you also apparently deny according to your abilities regarding the cooking of pizza or not, as though the two incidences had anything at all to do with each other or in common. Go figure.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light...............................
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.............................
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so................................
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so...............................
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Each of the creation events above and in Genesis one are said to have occurred in one day. That is simply and literally what is written. Which testimony has been confirmed in other portions of scripture.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 13 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.(NIV)

1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void or a waste and emptiness, and darkness was upon the face of the deep [primeval ocean that covered the unformed earth].(AMP)

2 The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.(AMPC)

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was unformed and void, darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the water.(CJB)

1 ·In the beginning [or In the beginning when] God created [ this Hebrew verb is used only when God is the one creating] the ·sky [heavens] and the earth. 2 ·The [or…the] earth ·had no form and was empty [or was a formless void]. Darkness covered the ·ocean [deep], and ·God’s Spirit [or a mighty wind] was ·moving [hovering] over the water.(EXB)

void /void/

adjective​

1. Containing no matter; empty.
2. Not occupied; unfilled.
3. Completely lacking; devoid: synonym: empty.
   "void of understanding."

 

[The Barbarian]

Herein lies the main problem of your above comparison, in that nothing you ever say or do will ever amount to anything even remotely like God's word, its power, authority and or the immediate action which follows it.

This is the heart of the problem; a lot of people think their own interpretation of Genesis is God's word. Some interpret it as a literal history, even though the text in Genesis 1 makes it clear that it is not.

 

[Jipsah]

Good luck

Don't need "luck". My faith is in the Gospel of Christ, not in Genesis. God Himself actually came here, in Person, to show us the Truth. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament of our Lord Christ where His disciples stood before unbelievers 'and preached into them Genesis", comme ça?

 

[BeyondET]

The world’s first civilization was 6000 years ago. The same time recorded history began. And coincidently when creation took place. That is our Historical Record. That is the historical facts that you have.

Play all the games you want. You don’t have to believe it or that creation was 6000 years ago.

But the fact is the worlds first civilization was Mesopotamia ~6000 years ago and Recorded History began ~6000 years ago.

We have no historical records that support any of the claims you mentioned.

Do you need me to post corroboration to what I’m saying?

And getting back to my point. Do you find that coincidence with the timing of creation?

Where does it say in the Bible the earth is 6,000?. That would be a fact,

where in the Bible does it say count the generations to determine the age of creation?

 

[Amo2]

This is the heart of the problem; a lot of people think their own interpretation of Genesis is God's word. Some interpret it as a literal history, even though the text in Genesis 1 makes it clear that it is not.

No, the heart of the problem is that a lot of people believe in deep time scenarios which holy scripture does not support or even suggest in any way, shape, or form. Then they interpret scripture according to such predetermined presumption. There is nothing in the first verse of Genesis that necessitates an allegorical rendering of the creation account. If there is, please do expound upon that which therefore has apparently limited God to allegory alone, concerning the days of creation mentioned in the creation account.

 

[Platte]

Don't need "luck". My faith is in the Gospel of Christ, not in Genesis. God Himself actually came here, in Person, to show us the Truth. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament of our Lord Christ where His disciples stood before unbelievers 'and preached into them Genesis", comme ça?

What did Christ say about Genesis? And btw. God did define a day.

 

[River Jordan]

No, the heart of the problem is that a lot of people believe in deep time scenarios which holy scripture does not support or even suggest in any way, shape, or form.

Only in the same way scripture doesn't "support or even suggest" that mountains are formed by tectonics, even though Amos tells us God creates mountains.

Then they interpret scripture according to such predetermined presumption.

Only in the same way most of us interpret parts of scripture that seem to indicate a flat earth, as saying something else.

There is nothing in the first verse of Genesis that necessitates an allegorical rendering of the creation account. If there is, please do expound upon that which therefore has apparently limited God to allegory alone, concerning the days of creation mentioned in the creation account.

Jewish and Biblical scholars have been advocating and debating about non-literal interpretations of Genesis for centuries, so it's not as simplistic as you're trying to make it and it certainly isn't limited to just two options (literal or allegory).

However, I often wonder why those in the literal camp seem to be so upset or offended when they encounter someone who interprets scripture differently than they do. I understand you read Genesis differently than me and it doesn't bother me one bit. Does it bother you that some Christians read it differently?

 

[The Barbarian]

This is the heart of the problem; a lot of people think their own interpretation of Genesis is God's word. Some interpret it as a literal history, even though the text in Genesis 1 makes it clear that it is not.

No

Yes. A lot of people believe in a 6,000 year old Earth which holy scripture does not support or even suggest in any way, shape, or form. Then they interpret scripture according to such predetermined presumption.

 

[The Barbarian]

Only in the same way most of us interpret parts of scripture that seem to indicate a flat earth, as saying something else.

Today's winner.